2.5yo - to nap or not to nap, that is the question?!

[jessmum46]

We just stuck out 6.30/7pm BT depending on nap or no nap. You may need to try a bit earlier though on a NND if your lo is struggling, DD would do a 12h night usually on a NND, maybe a bit longer. It can take time for nights to lengthen though and may not consistently until nap is gone x

[labrodyk]

We really appreciate your help Katherine - thank you.

We're doing 2 separate EASY's at the moment but he's waking very early and is cranky and upset and today fell asleep at both 11.30am and 2.30pm in the car, nothing I could do to keep him awake. Was yelling at him and everything. Tantrums have also escalated

EASY NND:
WU: before 6am. Chatting, singing, talking until gro clock sun at 7
2-3ish movie on the lounge but is a stretch to do this and is grumpy and tired from midday but is refusing to rest earlier.
BT: 6.30, asleep in 10mins.

EASY ND:
WU: chats and sings from 6am so wakes before that. Waits for gro clock sun at 7
Nap: 2ish if I can push it for 20mins. Takes me ages to fully wake him as he keeps falling back asleep or cries for ages if I redirect him to something else.
BT: can still take up to an hour. A couple of times it's been 30minutes. But usually it's just before 8pm

Interestingly he was asleep by 7.40 from 7pm PD after all his car naps today, the last which was an hour ending at 3.30pm! He has to be absolutely exhausted - where am I going wrong here? Inconsistency? Child just hates sleeping? Lol


I know I sound like a crazy lunatic but I'm 21 weeks pregnant now and I'm absolutely shattered. Once he starts singing "fireman Sam" on repeat from 5.50 until 7, sleep time is over

[jessmum46]

You don't sound like a loon at all the 1-0 can really be tough!

I'm guessing he had a lot of accumulated OT today and just needed to work through that.  I did tend to find that long naps backfired here with bad nights, but you may be lucky . I know it's hard to wake them though.  I guess your other option is to accept a long day and short night, I know some people who have done that.  So accept say a 6am to 8pm day and allow a proper nap.  Maybe he's not one who will do well with nap capping.....I'll ask one of the others to pop in with some btdt experience on that front xx

[creations]

Hi. I've just read through your thread.
I'm wondering what his routine was like before the 1-0 started? I mean before you capped naps and nights went short - the last time you were on a steady routine where he was fully rested. Can you remember?

So, my experience with the 1-0 was that DS was clearly in the transition but could NOT cope with a capped nap and neither could he cope with a NND (we have a scar on the forehead from an attempted NND where he was standing still and just keeled over at 4.30pm, needless to say I didn't try that again!) so like you we had a few months of messiness.  Here's what I found though...
Good routine: Nap was set at 2hrs 2-4pm, BT 8pm.
When nights went as short as 9hrs or even less (total sleep 11hrs in 24) I felt I really had to do something.
Attempts at capping the nap - huge fail - DS was a mess, nap was shorter, nights were still short, overall less sleep and a very grumpy boy.
Attempts at one NND per week - huge fail, by 4.30pm he was a mess and a danger to himself.
More attempts at capping at 1.5hrs - not great.
In time I eventually realised that we were back on our original routine. 2hr nap and roughly 10hr night.  I was supposed to be capping at 1.5hrs but couldn't bare the melt downs so was often leaving him the full 2hrs and do you know what, I think he had 'tried' the transition thing and decided he wasn't ready. May sound a little crazy.
Then one day he was poorly with hand, foot and mouth. He slept a 2.5hr nap (I didn't wake him as he was poorly). The following day he refused his nap and pretty much that was the end of napping.

I did try the odd car nap but discovered this made him very angry. If he nodded off in the car it was best to let him but to wake him on arrival somewhere, not to leave him to sleep longer.  Micro naps really.
After around 2wks of not napping and getting more cranky (I was exhausted!) I invited him to nap in bed with me, he had never slept with me before and I didn't think he would go for this but he agreed, we both slept on and off for 2hrs. And that really was the last of the real naps. This was at 2yrs 7 months.  Since then he only falls to sleep if in the car for a micro-nap once in a while.

I felt very strongly that my DS needed a regular routine every day the same. If that meant long nap and short night then that was it, when he dropped the nap (cold turkey in the end) his routine was again regular, same every day, predictable and this is what he needed. He couldn't cope with capping or some days napping some not, too unpredictable, it never gave his body a chance to adapt.  When he stopped napping I think I was happy to get 11 to 11.5hr night.  Over a little time this increased to 12hrs - btw he NEVER did 12 hrs as routine, only ever for a short period through a nap drop or illness so the new 12hr nights were unbelievable to me - a real treat!

Looking at what you've tried I think I would be tempted now to just let him sleep a long nap.  Even if it makes nights short, it may be the balance he needs to get the most sleep he can and at the time of day he needs it.
If (especially after some long naps) he refuses a nap then I'd let him lead on that, do EBT and continue to offer the nap the next day. So:
WU 6am
nap 2-4
BT 7 (if it takes an hour to go to sleep) for S 8pm
or
BT 8pm if he will go to sleep quickly.
or
I would even go later with BT if you get refusals because he does have the option to sleep later in the morning and did do it one day which proves he can in the right circumstances.
You never know, he could do what mine did - one monster nap and then a cold turkey drop!

If you decide to continue with the capped naps I would bring BT much earlier, I don't see how he can cope with a 20-30 min nap and less than 10hrs at night. So:
WU 6am
nap 2 - 2.20
BT 5.30/6pm for S by 6.30/7pm

Another thing I wanted to mention is he is 2.5 yo so he is going through the half year developmental phase which can really throw things off - yk just in case you weren't thrown off already. He might actually need more sleep just now but have more disturbed sleep too, NWs may be OT/UT of they may be just a part of the usual half birthday messiness which you have wrapped up along with the 1-0 messiness. Basically I wouldn't read too much into NWs around this time.

I hope this doesn't just add to your confusion!  1-0 really is a messy time.  You're clearly putting a ton of work into it, and maybe this is a time to listen to him rather than us??  if he is shouting at you to let him sleep, well, maybe let him?

Happy to answer any questions you might have about my experience if you have any.
((hugs)) too - you'll get through this.

[labrodyk]

Oh Creations! This is SOOOOOOO us, thank you so very much for posting. You get where I'm coming from and it seems almost impossible but we will get through this. You're very right and it feels like we've come full circle and I just concede defeat and go back to what we were doing several months ago.

After the car naps yesterday he was still asleep when I got up at 6.30. He woke shortly after but had more rest despite the longer and later sleep. This meant though that when I went to get him to stay in bed for quiet time at 2, he fought me tooth and nail. He was ok at first but i ran outside to get the washing only to find him out of his room saying he didn't want quiet time. I took him back  and reinforced gro clock and that he didn't have to sleep. He was very upset and screamed for some time before going to do a wee and hopping back into bed to fall asleep around 2.40! It's so confusing.

When we've done a later bedtime of 8pm in the past it has resulted in less overnight sleep, taking the same 30-60mins to fall asleep and waking at 6/6.30.

On a NND it is 6.30-6 which isn't too bad - he just can't handle too many of them in a row.

I have so many questions but no idea where to start. lol.

[creations]

Try to look at balance of sleep rather than how much over night sleep. I know for some LO it's best to look for the way they get the longest over night sleep but for mine (and perhaps yours) it isn't at night they need it, they need the break in the day.
Mine also had nap refusals until he worked out he needed the nap and then stopped refusing.  How about try 2.15 or 2.30 on the days he wakes a little later in the morning? Or if he refuses at 2 don't fight it, just say ok then try again at 2.30?

I'd try the long nap, 2hrs if he wants it, even if it means night is as short as 9 hrs. I know 9hrs is not ideal, but with a 2hr nap this is 11hr total and day sleep seems to count for more than night sleep (no idea if this is true but someone told me for an adult 20 min of day sleep is worth 1hr of night sleep and maybe something similar is true of children?), basically a split sleep of 11hr s total could result, further down the line of a 12hr night which is more hours of sleep but all in one chunk - whilst your LO actually needs part of the sleep hours in the day instead of night but then doesn't need so many hours total.
Confusing?

[labrodyk]

Ok, will try it that way!

He's NEVER been a 2hr napper - it's usually 1hr10, 1hr20 or 1hr40min max. We let him sleep until 4 (I think that will have to be the cut off, even if he takes a while to fall asleep at nap time) and he was in bed at 7pm and asleep at 8pm when I checked. Will see what the night and morning brings.

Thank you ever so much for helping, and Katherine too, you're both stars!

[jessmum46]

Good luck!  Make sure you stick to any plan for a good few days to a week so you can assess if it's working or not x

[labrodyk]

Hello lovely ladies!! This has been our week so far, what do you think???

Tuesday 9-June
WU: 6.30 chatting
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 2.00 (fought me for 40mins before falling asleep at 2.40) - 3.55
BT: 7.00. Asleep by 8.00 after laying quietly.

Wednesday 10-June
WU: 6.00 chatting
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 1.55, asleep by 2.10 -
BT: 7.07. Asleep 7.55 after laying quietly.

Thursday 11-June
WU: 5.40 singing/chatting
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 2.00, asleep 2.20 - 3.50.
BT: 7.05. DH saw him standing still in the middle of his room at 7.30, head down whispering nonsense!  H then said he needed to do a wee (but didn't), took him back to bed where he started crying and didn't want DH to leave. DH comforted him before leaving again and he was asleep 8.07.

Friday 12-June
WU: was stirring/rolling around when I checked in at 6.10 but not chatting until 6.45 so I'm not sure.
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 2.05, asleep by 2.15 - 2.40 oob.
BT: 7.05, asleep by 8.00pm after laying quietly.
** really cranky before nap, OT or something else not sure. Just not a happy chappy

Saturday 13-June
WU: call out at 6.35 and chatting from 6.44
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 1.55, asleep 2.10 - 3.45 OOB. I poked my head in and he was laying quietly awake, saw me and got up.
BT: 7.05, asleep 8.00 after laying quietly

[creations]

Do you know the nap length Wednesday?
And
Friday

Nap: 2.05, asleep by 2.15 - 2.40 oob.

is that a typo or he only napped for 25 mins?

and I see he was a bit cranky there but how do you feel about his overall mood with these non-capped naps?
Although there's at least one night there where I'd say it was way too short, I don't think we can look at individual days in isolation with a transitioning LO. Overall it looks, time wise, to be ok really, roughly 11 to 11.5hr+ sleep in 24, is that right?

[labrodyk]

Sorry! It must have got cut off when I tranferred from my notes!

Wednesday was 2.10-3.30 and Friday was 2.10-3.40 not 25mins! His overall mood isn't 'tooooo' bad. I can get him to 2pm but he's very ready for some quiet time and is falling asleep each day so far.

Interestingly we're getting exactly the same ONS length as we were on a capped nap but he's a bit happier through the day (and I like not waking him). I wish he'd sleep longer at night but I don't think it's ever going to happen, lol. You're right it's roughly 11ish hours in 24hours.

Do you think I should pull the nap back enough to give him time to fall asleep and then if he sleeps 1.5hrs he'd be up by 3.30 and he MAY fall asleep a little quicker at bedtime or that might not do anything?

This morning he came into my room asking for a toy he'd lost in the night at 6.35, he's been singing and carrying on in bed since!

[creations]

Interestingly we're getting exactly the same ONS length as we were on a capped nap but he's a bit happier through the day (and I like not waking him).

I thought so but didn't dare say
So overall he is getting more sleep, same night sleep as the capped nap routine but now he gets longer nap so total is more sleep.

My guess is that his mood is going to improve over the next week or so as he settles into this routine. He might still be a bit OT from those capped naps even though he is not taking the opportunity to nap long or do longer nights. Sometimes I think they just can't do longer sleeps than they are doing (otherwise everyone would have a simple 1-0 transition by just cutting the nap and expect the night length to instantly lengthen to the perfect length).

Do you think I should pull the nap back enough to give him time to fall asleep and then if he sleeps 1.5hrs he'd be up by 3.30 and he MAY fall asleep a little quicker at bedtime or that might not do anything?

Honestly I don't think it would help - but you can try!!
My personal opinion is that at this point you are getting the longest (or close to the longest) nap and night he is capable of. I fear if you try to get BT earlier you will just get earlier WU.
Has he always taken so long to go to sleep at night? Just wondering if he would fall to sleep faster and a teeny bit earlier if you put him down later, instead of relaxing from 7pm and falling to sleep at 8, maybe he could be active until 7.30 and fall to sleep at 7.45??  Don't know how you'd feel about keeping him up 30 mins longer, it changes how your own evening routine goes.

[labrodyk]

Thanks Creations - yes, his mood is slightly increasing although he's pretty tired. In regards to the later bedtime, we were offering this a month or so ago, with into bed at 7.30 with the longer nap in the hope he might tack on but he was taking a full sleep cycle to drop off so it was 8.15 asleep (or later) and wake at 6/6.30 so we moved it back so that he was getting a bit more sleep....

We've had a few interesting days with car naps, staying at grandparents and tonight (has been my birthday) and he's been getting out of bed after bedtime. I'm hoping it's just because of routine change (which he doesn't do well with) and not because he's caught up on sleep and going to be annoying


Sunday 14-June
WU: 6.30 into my room asking for a toy that was lost in bed; back to bed but singing/chatting until 7.00
Nap: 2.20-3 in the car - really wanted to go back to sleep but couldn't and cried for a while.
BT: 7.00 - hopped out at 7.20 and I took him back to bed.
*** We stayed at my parent's house and DH and I went out for my birthday but mum told me he hopped out multiple times after we left wanting mummy mum took him back and read books, sang and pat and then crept out (typical nanny stuff) but wasnt asleep until 8.30/9!

Monday 15-June
WU: unsure.
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 2.25 asleep in car, woke at 3.05 and dozed trying to get back to sleep until 3.25 but was then wide awake.
BT: 7.15. Hopped out at 7.30. Finally asleep now at 8. 

[creations]

In regards to the later bedtime, we were offering this a month or so ago, with into bed at 7.30 with the longer nap in the hope he might tack on but he was taking a full sleep cycle to drop off so it was 8.15 asleep (or later) and wake at 6/6.30 so we moved it back so that he was getting a bit more sleep....

I'd stick with it as it is then and just accept he is one who like to relax in bed thinking about his day before he nods off.

You may need to be firm about staying in bed after BT, does he have any reason to get up? eg is it to use the toilet? Can he easily call you if he needs something?  I think I'd be putting some realistic and fair rules in place which involve not getting out of bed.

[labrodyk]

We had a bit of a catch up last night from the last two days and didn't get out of bed until 7.30am! Can never replicate that, just happens randomly.

We are REALLY firm with getting out after bedtime and it never seems to be for any particular reason! We do EVERYTHING before he gets into bed (toilet, good nights, books) so if he hops out I don't really know why...because he can!?
The rule is that if he gets out after BT then we close his bedroom door. He positively hates that so he has a cry briefly then I open again and say goodnight. He will then stay put, I close it for a little longer if he does get out again and so on until he's asleep.