Early Wakings-- too much napping??

[cgf]

LO is 13.5 mo, still takes 2 naps on most days. (Some days, without seeming rhyme or reason, refuses second nap)

My issue is that he's been waking up at 6 am... our usual wakeup is closer to 7/7:30 for him and for his 3 YO brother... if it is what it is and we just have to wait it out ordeal with it, thats fine but if theres a change in his napping schedule that could me made I'd totally do that.

His average schedule is:

W/U varies every day, lets say yesterday 6 Am ish.
He usually goes down 2.5-3 hrs after waking up.. yesterdays nap was 8:30 because he was super cranky
Slept till 11 am (long nap, usuallyits about 2 hours but sometimes more.)
Went back down 2:30-4:30
Is this too much napping? Is this why he's started getting up so early??

At waht point do I change him to one nap? My other son was napping once already by this age, but this one seems to really need his naps by the time he hits the three hour mark.. the second one not as desperately but definitely the first one.

Any advice? Thanks!

[jessmum46]

Definitely too much day sleep!  Wow we rarely had that much even when newborn

You're probably hitting the beginnings of the 2-1 so you have some decisions to make about how you want to play it. My feeling would be since you are (a) dealing with EWs, (b) he seems to like a short first A time and (c) you are getting pm nap refusals that the way to go is to start cutting your morning nap shorter aiming for a short am, long pm routine.  Some mums do a long am short pm but for the reasons I've mentioned I don't think this is the way to go for you.  Allowing a long nap after such a short first A time will certainly perpetuate early mornings, really to do long am short pm you need to be offering the first nap after a good 4h or so A time and it doesn't sound like that will suit your LO.

So, say a typical first nap for you is 2h, I'd probably jump right away to waking after 1h as any longer can't really count as a 'short' nap.  So say

WU
3h A time (try to keep this consistent)
Nap for 1h (wake him)
A time maybe around 3h, this will take some experimenting though
Long nap up to 2h
'Full' A time before bed I would expect 3.5-4h

If you run into pm nap refusals again or A time between naps extending much past about 3-3.5h, then cut the morning nap shorter again say to 45 mins and move the pm nap earlier again.  Eventually you will be down to a tiny CN in the morning and pm nap starting around 12.30/1, at which point you can think about making the jump to one nap starting around 11.30ish to begin with. 

There is a link here which may help:
From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

Also this:
"Average ‘A’ time for toddlers :
*Average A time for toddlers at this age is mostly 5 hours, some are already up to 6 hours. Several routines include slightly earlier bedtimes to make up for LO still being very tired during this very early transition period.

*After 10 months of age - average A times based on naps:

A)  20 min am nap 2h-3h20m hours A time, then PM nap
B)  30 min am nap 2h45m - 3h30m hours A time, then PM Nap
C)  45min AM nap 3h15m-4 hours A time, then PM nap
D)  60 min nap, 3h30m-4 hours A time, then PM nap"

[cgf]

Thank you so much for your detailed reply! What a help!

Question: what do I do if he can't make it to 3 hrs before th first nap? This mornng he was a mess by the time we hit 2 hours...

Also, how long does it usually take after implementing these changes to see a change in morning wakeup time? Or is there no way to tell...

Totally gonna give this a try over the weekend!!!

[jessmum46]

Being a mess by 2 hours makes me wonder if that EW you are seeing is actually a night waking, and he's not done with his night sleep.  What time is bedtime?  2h should be easily do-able at this age and if he goes down that early and sleeps a long nap, it is almost certainly an extension of night sleep.  I personally would push him to 3h regardless of sleepy signs, it will be painful and you'll probably get some OT short-term but I don't think a nap that early however short will help your cause.

Any changes I would stick to for a minimum of 3-4 days and preferably a week or more before deciding if something else needs to change x

[cgf]

Thank you so much!!
 
I capped the morning nap at an hour... he just went back down at 1:30.. (kinda nice cuz now he's anpping the same time as his older  brother !!

Thanks again for the super prompt and very clear replies! I so appreciate the support.
Will keep ya posted!

[jessmum46]

Good luck!  It may be a few wonky days, it will take time to get used to a shorter morning nap.  But hang in there and I'm sure you'll find your rhythm.  What a bonus to have them both napping together too!!

[cgf]

OK so its been a few days trying the new schedule... The weekend was a mess because we had to go out of town... he slept terribly at nights so I didnt feel I could wake him after an hour.. today were on day three of capping themorning naps. (but also he seems to be coming down with something. sigh. )

So, wakeups have been around 6 am, morning nap at 9 and capped until 10.

Today he was beyond exhausted by 12:45.... I put him down then, and he had a hard time falling asleep.. usualy he falls asleep right away but this time it took until 1/1:15 maybe? His second naps have been unusually short, like even shorter than when he was sleeping an uncapped morning nap. Does that make sense? He woke up at 2:15... usually he naps at least two hours. yesterday his nap was aslo short... I pushed him till 6 pm bedtime and he slept through the night.

What do i do if his second nap is acutally becoming shorter than it used to be before I capped the first??

Thank you again for the amazing support on this group!

[jessmum46]

Bring the second nap earlier   it's going to take him time to get used to being woken from the morning nap xx

[cgf]

Right.. I was wondering if that should be my next step.. and then if hes OT later in the afternoon then I gotta taket he brave plunge of just putting him down earlier for the night??

Well, this morning we had our first glimmer of succes.. WU was 6:40 which is great by our recent standards!!! yay!

Thank you so much again, Jessmum. You've been so helpful.. it's such a relief to know there's support out there!

[jessmum46]

and yay for the better WU time!!

[cgf]

Good morning all!

So, with some ups and downs (teething, etc) Weve been trying to stick with capping the first nap.

We're kind of stuck at this stage though.. Like this am he was up at 6 (unusual for him, thanks to your help we managed to push off wakeup time till 7/730 but his big brother was making quite the ruckus this morning...), napped him from 9-9:45 and well do a second uninterrupted nap probably about 12:30.

Now here's my question, firstly, hes been at this capped morning nap sched for quite a while. Do we just keep at it indefinitely?

Also, on days when he wakes up later, like yesterday (8 am yay!) it didnt seem possible to get in two naps... so I put him dwon at 11, he slept till1.. I was goig to try to push him for an early nighttime of about 6 am but he was totally losing it by 4 pm so i put him down for 45 minutes and then did BT about 8pm. Now i ddont watnt to confuse his body, i'm trying to stick with a longer PM nap, but what to do on days he wakes up later? And what to do in general, whats our next step? Thank you so much for your constatnt support and help

[jessmum46]

If the routine is working I'd be tempted not to change a thing . Make changes when you hit problems!  Just one note - if you're going for a one nap day you'd need at least 4-4.5h A time before the nap so if LO woke at 8 I'd try nap at 12 x