26 months night terror

[wilow]

Hi I just need help and advise on night waking of my DS. He is on EASY since he was 6 months he never was good sleeper and he still cannot STTN. He had good times for a while he was actually sleeping without problems -maybe for 2 months. He often wakes up during the night and scream like a crazy. I talk to him and try to calm him down but this makes him cry ever more. I change his nappy to make sure he does not feel discomfort from wet nappy. It helps for maybe 2 hours and then he cries again. He goes to bed at 8pm but very often does not fall asleep till 9.30pm. He calls me and cries during this time few times.
He wakes ups around 7am and naps for 1-1.5hr during the day.
This is goes on for 5 months now. Around this time he was sick and since then he is like that. Probably does not help that my second son was born 3 months ago. I dont know what to do between him and younger son I dont have any sleep and I am exhausted. My younger son is going through sleeping regression as well and is just night mare.  I was very grateful for the help.

[Buttonbobs]

It sounds like you've been having a really tough time, ((hugs))

When he wakes, is he awake and responsive to you, although crying? Or is he still asleep really and not reactive to you at all?

Do youfeel you could post a day or two of his sleep patterns, includig WU times at night?

[wilow]

Thank you for response.

He looks like awake but I think he is in dreamland. When I talk to him he is crying even louder and starts trowing himself around the cot. It is difficult to hold him sometimes.
I do feel sorry for him but I'm frustrated as well I just need a sleep 
His day usually goes like this

WU 7-8am
milk and breakfast 7.30-8.30am
Going to playschool 8.50am
snack around 10.30am
lunch 12.30pm
He is going 3 times a week to playschool so he is having his lunch in the car - twice and one day granny picks him up so he eats in her place.
sleep 1-2.30 or 2-3.30pm - he does not sleep in granny's because he is crying and she has problem to manage this.
snack when awake around 3.30pm
When he does not sleep he is falling asleep in the car on the way home for half an hour. He is grumpy til the evening then.
dinner 5-6pm
milk 7pm
night time routine 7.30pm (bath every second day usually)
brush teeth, read books with daddy
bed 8pm and then he is awake till 9 - 9.30 pm anyway and calling us for that time few times.

During the night he is awake usually around 11pm and then 1.30 and 2.30am from that time he sleeps till morning.

[Buttonbobs]

Ok, well if you think he is not awake then this sounds more like a night terror. I will try and get someone to come here nd have a look who has experienced these as I have no btdt personally. I believe that the best thing is to make your child comfortable and make sure he can't hurt himself, but not to interact with him unless he's going to hurt himself, other than gentle verbal reassurance, have a look here to see if there's anything you find helpful:

Nightmares and night terrors.

Night terrors can be worse at developmental leaps, or if the LO is overtired (OT). I would say that it might be that he is beginning to need his full length nap less, have you read this link:

The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.

If he is getting a little undertired (as the later bedtime seep may indicate) then in the long run this could lead to OT, which may increase night disturbance. What do you think? Does any of this sound like him?

[<Catherine>]

It definitely sounds like NTs to me, my DS suffered terribly with them. With him it was mostly down to OT but I also found they would happen if he was too hot so perhaps check he's not too warm?

As Naomi said, there isn't a lot you can do whilst they are in the midst of a NT other than to keep them safe. It's very frustrating and very hard to see them go through it.

I would definitely look at your routine, I agree that if he's taking that long to fall asleep at BT then you most likely need to look at the nap.

Hugs. It so, so hard. There is nothing worse than NTs

[wilow]

Hi thx for replies.
I was thinking about his nap during the day but if he want sleep he is very cranky and so Ot by the end of the day that he is crying for ages. For last few day I cut his nap til 1.15 hr but still he is going late to sleep.
Can you tell me if that night terror last long? My DS1 is very touchy spirited baby and very sensitive to every change thats why I do keep routine in the same way as much as possible. But I just want to know when I can get some sleep eventually I dont have to get up to my DS2 - 3 months that often that I have to to my DS1. My second baba sleeps almost whole night witout waking.

[Buttonbobs]

How long have you been cutting his nap to 1 hr 15 mins? It can take a while for a child to get used to a new routine. Could you try moving the nap slightly later as well as shortening it, say 15 mins later to see if that helps with the grumpiness?

There isn't really a timeframe that we can set, different LOs respond to things in different ways. I do really think sort of the nap out in the right way for your LO is your best bet. What did you think of the link?

[wilow]

He some kind of did this by himself he was napping for 3 days just 1.20hr. Yesterday he didnt want to go sleep at all.  He was lying in the cot from 1.15pm till 2pm after that I took him out. He fell asleep for 40 minutes during evening walk in the buggy at 5.50pm> I woke him up at 6.30. He went to sleep for the night at 9pm.
Today he fell asleep on the way from school at 12.50 and sleep till 2pm. So its different time every day.
He used to nap around 12 but that was when he was 18 months. From that time I had to move his nap to 1pm because he was in playschool till 12.30pm. He was going fine to sleep till 5 months ago. Always fall asleep by himself no bother. Waking up at night but usually he was going back to sleep and didnt scream like now. So I did hear him but I didnt have get up to him. I just dont have idea what to do

[Buttonbobs]

It sounds like things are really tough hun. Are you able to keep track for a couple of days with exact times for us so we can take a look at things?

Before this shortening of naps started, what time was the nap and how long was it?

Have you tried going for a consistent nap and BT each day and sticking with them no matter how short/long the naps are?

I do thibk this is OT that has arisen as a result of a build up of UT, so going forward to get the nap at the best time for him and making sure he is not getting too much day sleep should really help.

[wilow]

For last 8 months he was napping from around 1pm till 3pm when he was in playschool any other days from 12.30 till 2.30 pm. We did transition to one nap around 15 months. His BT was 7.30pm and he was getting up between 6.30 and 7.00am. Around 23 months I moved his BT to 8pm as he was not tired at 7.30 and he started to get up around 7-7.30am. He was crying at night times but not for long and was able to back to sleep. As I said earlier he does not really STTN he had few good weeks but not so many of them.
Some days I had to wake him up from the nap, some days he slept shorter but I was always consistent with naps and BT as he was difficult to manage. I usually keep him in the cot even if he is awake for time that he should nap, and he usually have the same BT every night it may wary 15 minutes here and there.
I will keep the track and let you know about his days.

[Buttonbobs]

The fat that he has been on this pattern for a while now does seem to indicate that in part the routine is affecting his sleep. Do let us know how the next the days go.

You mention that he's never STTN. What methods have you used to help him when he wakes at night? Is he an independent sleeper?

[wilow]

Hi>
There was no much change last few days. He slept different times during the day and skipped few naps. We had 2 good nights but that's all.

He is independent sleeper now. Falling asleep alone no soother for last 6months. When I started training him when he was 6 moths I used PU/PD method. At that stage he was terrible sleeper didn't sleep more than 2 hours long at night, waking very often. During the day he napped 45 min. The problem was that I nursed him to sleep. That was my mistake but I was first time parent and he didnt feed well. He was very skinny baby - he still is, and I was told to feed him often so ended up feed him every 2 h till he was 5 mths and then I was just too tired and I said enough I found Tracey's book and this forum. These helped me a lot.

Any way last few days went like this:
Sat
Up 7am
Put him to sleep at 1pm - refuses to sleep
In bed 7 pm really tired fell asleep in 15 min.
awake 10pm crying for 30 min nappy change
awake 1am crying for 30 min

Sun visit granny
Up 7am
Sleep 2.30 - 4pm - I needed to wake him very cranky till BT
BT 7.30pm
In bed 8.15pm
Sleep 9.10pm
awake 10.30pm but he fell asleep very quick

Mon
UP 7.15am
sleep 12.45 - 1.55
BT 7.30pm
sleep 9pm
awake 10.30pm but fell asleep

Tue
UP 7am
sleep 2.30-3.20 he was crying when awake and cranky all day
BT 7.30
sleep 9pm
awake 11.30pm nappy change and sleep

Wen school day
UP 6.40
1.30 no sleep refuses to sleep
In bed 7pm fell asleep in 15 min.
awake now at 21.30 crying for 30 min nappy change........ wait till morning....

[Buttonbobs]

Ok lovely, I really think that the nap has to be shorter or BT will continue to be later and he'll get more and more OT. Can you see inthe days he didn't nap he is settling at BT very quickly. PerhPs he would be ready for even earlier BT on those days - say 11.5 hours after WU if no nap at all.

If you prefer to keep the nap full length I think you need to keep it at around 12.30ish after a 7am WU. Then go for BT a little later than 12 hours after WU from morning (so say 8.30pm). He's not ever sleeping until gone 9 anyway And putting him down earlier might make him more grotty.

Just one quick thing, when he wakes crying, how do you deal with this? Are you going to him, or reassuring from the door with your voice? Or something different?

[wilow]

So last night awake twice again. He did not sleep during the day - he was crying for half an hour and I didnt want him to awake baby. Went sleep 9.00pm - granny minded him and she is not good with putting him to sleep, was really tired so he was awake few times crying.
When he is awake I reassuring him from door first but almost never works, after I talk to him try to calm him down with light off but very often Ineed to take him out and seat with him on the armchair in his room. After he stop crying I check for nappy and put him down but very often I need to come back few times. when he is awake second time usually talking to him works. 
Sometimes I cannot calm him down and daddy has to do it, maybe he feels that I am upset  by his awakes and this does not help him go back to sleep.

[Buttonbobs]

Ok, so having too long a day would definitely lead to him waking more overnight, through OT. I think that he might also be becoming reliant on you to resettle him. Could you work towards not physically removing him from the cot, and reassuring him either with stroking his back or similar and encouraging him to lie down rather than taking him out. It might be hard at first, but he will learn to go back to sleep more quickly if he's left to resettle.

You orinogally wrote that you don't think he's awake when he is crying. I'm pretty sure (although I've not experienced night terrors myself) that the best advice is to leave him in the cot, making sure he is safe, but not trying to wake him or comfort him too much. At this ge he shouldn't really need a nappy change overnight and if he is really not awake properly this could be too disturbing for him. If he is experiencing NTs then really he won't calm until the NT is over, so reassuring him with your voice may BT immediately calm him down.

But, if you think he's awake and crying then trying to settle him in the cot will be your best bet.

Does he seem awake or not?

[wilow]

I do agree with you that we should not take him from bed or change his nappy if he is not wet but I cannot explain this to my partner he does not agree with that and we always had disagreement about it. I think that in the beginning when he cries he is not awake but after I think he is awake because when I ask him question he is answering.When I try only reassure him with my voice he cries louder.
BT become nightmare I actually hate it he always cries and screams even he knows the routine we do this for last 20months. We are going on holidays soon and we will stay in small apartment when you can hear everything and Iam afraid he is going to wake up my DS2 with that screaming in the evening and night time. My DS2 is only 16 weeks and he sleeps better than DS1. I think we will have tough time...wish me luck

[Buttonbobs]

I think the not changing the nappy thing could be a start. Nappies nowadays are made to be worn for longer periods at night without causing any problems for toddlers' skin. Even when my DD was a tiny baby I would only change her at night if she had got a dirty nappy, not just for

I'm not so sure if you're seeing night terrors, if he responds to you speaking. I'll see if I can get some more experienced eyes for you to double check. Having a new sibling is a big change for a small person (& for you and DH too!). Have you been able to spend a bit of quality time each day doing something with DS1 that he absolutely loves?

Have you read about gradual withdrawal? This could be. Useful technique for you to use to deal with the NWs.
Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

I think a couple of things could really help you in addition to not changing nappies:

1. A daytime routine and more regular sleep times; and
2. Responding to him at night without getting him out of the cot.

If you are worried about the noise he makes, and the possibility of him waking DS2, could you use some white noise in DS2's room to help him remain undisturbed. You can alsonuse earplugs to help take the upset out of the listening to crying to ease the process for you.

[wilow]

Im not sure as well. It will be great if somebody can look at this and give me some idea about this issue. We have some time together every day it is not much but we play only two of us. I have to probably try earplugs

[becj86]

Hi, just hoping to differentiate for you as to whether if this is night terrors or wakings.

- Does the crying start off quiet/intermittent and escalate or is it full on straight away?
- Does he calm when you're there?
- Does he recognise you?
- Does he attack/try to escape you if you try to comfort him with a hand/cuddle?

The thing with a night terror is that it tends to happen in the early hours of the night and is like sleep walking (only louder) in that LO is asleep, unlikely to remember it in the morning and doesn't recognise you/isn't calmed by your presence. In fact, often it goes on longer if you get involved than if you don't (best to be sure you're not leaving him to CIO though).

Also wondering why you're doing a nappy change in the night? Its not necessary at this age unless they're leaking or LO's done a poo.

With him wanting dad to resettle - is he seeing much of him during the day? Maybe he's wanting to get some daddy cuddles? I know we had similar wakings when DS didn't see one or the other of us as much due to work or whatever and the 'missing' parent was always required before resettling.

Is this a new thing - new siblings can throw a spanner in the sleeping works for even the best sleepers.

[wilow]

I am confuse about everything now I am pretty sure that weeks ago he had night terror because he did not respond to me, or my partner, he got more upset when I try have physical contact, he was completely crazy, I thought he would hurt himself, everything was happening in early hours of the night.
At this stage I am not sure if he is just acting out and try to get attention of me and my partner. Sometimes he does not want to see me only daddy. My partner is working all day coming back in the evening maybe an hour before his bed time.  know he wants to play with him.
I do not do nappy change but my partner have this idea and I cannot change it. But also when he is awake he says that his nappy is dirty, I don't know if this is just habitual because daddy always does this or if really he feels wet.
Everything happens before 12 noon after that he is sleeping till morning.
Whatever is I do not know how to handle this. I know that he is in that horrible 2 age but have to be some way to not have battle ever night??

[becj86]

Can your partner do the BT routine stuff with him, so he gets some cuddles and maybe a couple of books and a chat with Daddy before he goes to sleep? That really helped us when DH was leaving before DS got up and only getting home at bath time.

What's his routine again? Just wondering if he's OT? Does he take a while to go to sleep?

weeks ago he had night terror because he did not respond to me, or my partner, he got more upset when I try have physical contact, he was completely crazy, I thought he would hurt himself, everything was happening in early hours of the night.

^ That sounds like a NT. Is that what's still happening? If so, this is where you can be reassured that he's asleep, stuck between two sleep cycles and all you can do it make sure he's safe (touching/talking to him can make it last longer). If not, its still in the part of the night that indicates he's overtired at bed time which would suggest his routine's not right for him.

[wilow]

He usually does but my DS1 wants more time and I dont blame him he is fussing and crying and calling for attention.
His day starts usually between 7 and 7.30am Lately he wakes up before 7 but only for last few days.
He has nap around 1.00 - 1.30 till 2.45 - 3pm
BT start around 7.30pm and he is in bed 8.15pm but he does not fell asleep till 9.30pm!! just crying and calling for us.
Then he is awake around 1.5h after he fell asleep sometimes 11pm. and sometimes he awakes in next hour again 12noon. He has nappy change then. After then he sleeps till morning.
Now when he is awake he is responding actually maybe not at first takes him few minutes but if I ask him question he answer. I dont know if during night walking you can have conversation?
I cannot do anything so he will go sleep faster he has to be really tired to fall asleep fast.

[Buttonbobs]

Well I think it sounds like there id an element of a routine issue then.. I mentioned about about the nap dropping links, did you have a chance to read any of them?

[becj86]

That long nap in the middle of the day will have him UT for BT - that's likely the reason he's taking so long to go to sleep and having long wakings most nights. The NT is probably happening because under all this short-term UT, he's actually OT from not having a decent night's sleep.

I think that nap needs at least to be shortened if not removed altogether. Have a read of the links Naomi posted for you and see what you think.

[wilow]

He naps now around 1.20min during the day I cut it down. The last couple of night were not too bad. He actually went to sleep without big crying, he was complying but not too bad, so he got dissent sleep at night. He was sleeping from 9pm till 7am and you can see different, he is much happier in the morning and during the day
He still wakes up during the early night but he does not cry so much and I can calm him down. Probably wont be any better and I am happy what I have.
Roll on holidays now we will see if that change anything for better or worse.

[becj86]

Glad he's sleeping better, makes such a difference for you and for him

You may find bring BT a little earlier will help too. What time is he napping?

[wilow]

He is napping from 1.15pm to 2.35pm around I put him down at 1pm.
I cannot really change BT because daddy comes back around 7pm so he wants spend time with him