Author Topic: What does a broken nap mean?  (Read 4567 times)

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Offline hkrmom

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What does a broken nap mean?
« on: June 07, 2015, 14:26:04 pm »
Hi,

I've been posting a bunch about 45 minute naps with the 14 week old (arg!!) they continue to drive me crazy, though I can usually count on an AM nap of 1.5 - 2.5 hours.  However, the last two days, DD has been changing her routine with the first nap.  Yesterday she peeped at about the 40 minute mark (not entirely sure on times because she goes to bed awake and then I leave the room.  I just have a regular monitor so don't know how long she is up).  After she peeped, I heard her once or twice more and think she was awake for about  20 mins - 30 mins, but then quiet for another 40.  Today, she did something similar, but closer to 35 minutes, peeped for a little and then quiet for another hour.  I assume she is sleeping but I didn't go in the room for fear of her seeing me if she was awake.  When I got her out of the bed, she had a huge poop, so wondering if that is why she woke initially around 35 mins? 

So, my first question - I'm also wondering if this means anything else related to her A time.  I'm so afraid of losing my one good nap in the morning that I dont want to do anything to disrupt it!

 Also, how do I look at A time after a broken nap like this? Should it be the same (currently 1 hr 45 minutes) or shorter? I've really been struggling with this and yesterday after a broken nap, it was all down hill.  4 45 minute naps later and 1 30 minute nap later, I had one OT baby and it was pretty much misery for the afternoon. 

Last question - when she is so OT by the end of the day, and after a 30 minute nap, she is usually screaming and hard to settle down, I just put her in the moby wrap to try to get some additional sleep.  Is this a bad habit? I usually can't get her to resettle in any situation (45 minute wake up or 30 minute wake up) and elect to get her some sleep.  But I hate to back track on the good progress we made (settling on her own, etc).

Thank you - I have my fingers crossed this nap stuff will pass soon and keep hoping one day she'll just do it!

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2015, 20:03:33 pm »
Hello, sorry to hear you're suffering with short naps. At 14 weeks it can be developmental, where she hasn't learnt to reliably transition between sleep cycles, or it could be routine related. Could you post your day in EASY format please so I can take a look?

With regards to the broken nap, I would keep the next A time the same, or slightly less if you think she's OT. As a day of short naps progresses then I would shorten her A time at the end of the day as, as you say, OT can build.

And I think it's fine to do a bit of AP at the end of the day, just to get a nap :) She'll drop the last nap at some point anyway, so if she's sleeping independently the rest of the time I reckon you're ok. Just be aware of it if she starts struggling to self settle for her other naps and a routine change doesn't help - but I think you'll be fine ;)



Offline hkrmom

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2015, 23:13:27 pm »
thanks LovelyLilyandJack,

Today was awful and totally chaotic because of tiny short naps, so I included yesterday's EASY that was slightly better :

Wake - 5:48 -- I would love to get wake up closer to 6:30 or 7, but don't know how to do this, especially when bedtime ends up so early.
E - 6:15
A
S - 7:33 - 9:40 (peeped at 8:10, 8:26, 9:26)
E 9:50
A -
S - 11 - 11:32, resettle 11:50 - 12:30
E - 1
A
S - 1:35 - 2:02, resettle 2:19 - 3:44 (peep at 2:59)
E - 4:10
A -
S - 5:15 - 5:45 (baby bjorne)
E 6:15
A
S - 6:45 - later bedtime than usual because of late nap.  Usually around 6:30, but would love to be consistently at 6:45 or 7.
Wake - 5:36 (peeped until around 6, and then quiet until 6:40. I assumed she slept until this time, but she was cranky at wake up and seemed so sleepy that I put her to bed after 1 hr 25 mins and she woke after 35 minutes, thus starting today's disaster day of mostly 30  minute naps...

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 17:01:58 pm »
Your EASY looks pretty good TBH, in that her A times are about where they should be.  Perhaps she's high or low sleep needs and needs a bit more or less A than average.  I don't know if you've seen this link ebfore but you're pretty much where you should be with A times - Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! .

I guess you can try extending or shortening them and see if it helps.  If you tried shortening her first A yesterday and got a 35 minute nap (which I assume she wouldn't resettle from), I'd guess that you need a push overall rather than shortening them.  She's not far off 4 months so she could also be getting ready to move to a 4 hour EASY (Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY). 

What do you think about extending that first A time a little bit to 1hr 45 and seeing if that helps that first nap at all?  Keep her other A times to 1hr 30 - or 1hr 15 if she does a short nap, and see how you go.  You could try that for 3 days and see how she does?



Offline hkrmom

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 19:37:47 pm »
She's actually been doing  1 hr and 45 minutes first thing in the morning and that seems to be working okay.  I think her 35 minute nap was a result of her waking early and just being quiet in her crib (versus sleeping), so i had the wake time totally off and she wound up overtired.  I observed her this morning because she woke at 5:45, but was quiet for a while, so I went in her room and she was just looking around being quiet.  I would have thought she'd fallen back to sleep and started her A time at a different time.  She's a trickster!

I've been wondering if i should try increasing the A on nap 2 assuming a good nap 1? would it make sense to go for 2 hours in the 2nd slot, and keep the first at 1 hr and 45? or, should i start with nap 1? There are some days I think she can go longer and others I think she's up too long! I got a good 1 1/2 hour nap this AM with 1 hr and 45 minutes, but its been 45 minute naps for the rest of the day and I've been trimming down A time as we go...

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 21:23:40 pm »
What A time is she currently on for her second nap after a decent first nap? If she's doing 45 minute naps after a decent first nap then she probably does need a push there, yes.



Offline hkrmom

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 21:47:58 pm »
If she had a good first nap, I'll do 1 hr 45 mins a time before nap 2.  If she does a 45 min nap 2, I try to keep the same A time for nap 3 and then start reducing from there, but she gets so overtired that I almost always get a 30 nap by end of day and she usually does not resettle well unfortunately.  I feel like I can't figure out how to help her sleep better :(

Do you think I should do a full nap in the moby wrap each day? Sometimes I put her in there after an OT nap, but I think she would take a full good nap in there if I let her. I don't want to create bad habits especially since I go back to work in two weeks and the nanny has to take over.

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 20:28:04 pm »
Don't worry, it took me months to figure out my son and get him to nap well. He sleeps really well now - you'll get there too  :-*

Your plan sounds good, let me know how you get on. If she carries on with the 45 minute naps then you can try another little A push.

You could use the wrap later in the day to get a good nap, though I'd probably keep it for cat naps personally, unless she's getting so OT it's affecting nights.



Offline hkrmom

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 14:54:08 pm »
Well today her morning broken nap turned into a 40 minute nap.  She didn't put herself back to sleep and I tried to resettle her, but had 3 failed attempts.  She seemed like she wanted to go to sleep, but just kept waking after looking like she was out.  I had increased A by 5 minutes, but wondering if not enough?  This morning was the first time she let me swaddle her without crying so I thought it was timed perfectly! Maybe a sign of UT? She was pleasant when I got her up, but obviously tired.  So, we are on to nap 2 and will see how it goes. I out her in bed at 1 hr 40 min A time and hoping that will do it.  She just cried out 10 minutes later and I had to go resettle her.  Hoping that's not indicative of OT already :(

Oh I'm so confused!

Offline hkrmom

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2015, 14:14:53 pm »
So after another week, the broken naps are now 30 or 40 minutes with an occasional long nap every few days.  I had increased her A and been looking for cues, but I think I am just missing something.  And I am trying to balance deferring to her cues versus Holding out but it's obviously not working.  This morning for example she woke at 650 and seemed to be getting tired around 830.  So we went to her room,got swaddled (no crying!) did wind down and in bed at 840.  She didn't fight me at all, but woke 30 minutes later and would not resettle so I'm thinking UT? She did the same thing on Thursday with a 35 min nap.  Her  mood was pleasant and we went for a walk and no fussing  or anything.

How long after a 30 minute nap should baby go back down? Do I cut A?  She's dozing while eating so I think she's now tired...

What am I missing? Our one long nap of the day is officially gone :( and I just don't know what to do. 
On the days she has taken a long nap recently, she has woken but stayed in her bed for 30 mins or so.  She is usually quiet during this time but I do not really sleeping.  I've tried to check but just now assume anything less than 30, no, and anything more than 40, yes.  and I base her A on the time I first heard her versus when she cries to get out of bed.  So when I get her out of bed, she is only up another hout and 15-30.  I wonder if I should base all As on that?

Thank you!

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2015, 19:51:23 pm »
Sorry I haven't replied in a while - I completely missed your post on June 11th - I'm not sure how.

Firstly, please don't beat yourself up - naps are really tricky at this age.  Babies are only just starting to organise day sleep at 3 months and it takes them up until 6 months (or later) to really figure it out, so short naps at this age are really really normal!  One good nap a day is a good, realistic aim at this age, so lets try and get that first one back for you. 

Did the short naps start after you increased her A time?  If so, I'd go back to the last A time that worked and see if that helps.  If it doesn't, we'll try something else.  Much of it is trial and error with babies I'm afraid, so we'll see how this goes and then reassess :)



Offline hkrmom

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2015, 00:26:40 am »

Did the short naps start after you increased her A time?  If so, I'd go back to the last A time that worked and see if that helps.  If it doesn't, we'll try something else.  Much of it is trial and error with babies I'm afraid, so we'll see how this goes and then reassess :)

You know, I don't know.  I just went through all of my logs from the last couple of weeks  and maybe you can help me make some sense of what's going on.  I listed out the first A time of the morning.  In some cases, before she gets out of bed in the morning, she will peep, get quiet for 30 minutes or more.  I'm never sure what A time to use, but wound up using first peep time as wake up if her out of bed cry is less than 40 minutes later.  If it's more, I go with the out of bed time. 

With the broken naps happening, I started to increase A, but have had really variable results.  When I get the short nap first thing in the morning, we never recover and baby ends up taking a total of 2 -3 hrs of naps all day (like today, poor thing was so tired at bed time.)

She is sleeping through the night (knock on wood!) from about 6:30/6:45 - 6/6:30.  On the days where she's had really terrible naps, she sometimes will sleep a little later, closer to 7.

Ok, so here is my crazy log! Would love any advice if you see anything here.  I just don't know what to do anymore and if I should just follow her cues and forget about A time.  I have been trying to strike a balance between the two and things were going well for a week or two, but have gotten progressively worse.

6- 15 -- 30 minute nap, 1 hr 46 min A time.  Didn't resettle and seemed happy.
6 - 14 -- broken nap, but long,  1 hr 59 min A time ** however, this is a case where the baby woke up, made some noise, and then got quiet again.    If based on out of bed time, would be 1 hr 29 min A time
6 - 13 -- good nap, 1 hr 54 min A time
6 - 12 -- 35 min nap, 1 hr 55 min A time.  Another case of wake up, peep, then quiet.  Based on actual out of bed time, it's 1 hr 15 min A.  didn't resettle, but was happy.  burped when woke up.
6 - 11 -- 40 min nap, 1 hr 48 min A time.   Seemed like she wanted to go back to sleep, but wouldn't resettle.
6-10 -- broken, but long, 1 hr 40 min A time
6 - 9 -- good nap, 1 hr 39 min A time
6-8 -- broken, but long.  1 hr 25 mins A time (wasn't sure what time she woke up because she peeped and then was quiet for about 40 minutes.  seemed tired so put down early)
6 - 7 -- broken, but long. 1 hr 45 min A time
6 -6 -- 50 minutes,  1 hr 43 min A time
6 - 5 -- good nap, 1 hr 43 min A time
6 - 4 - broken, but long. 1 hr 40 min A time
6 - 3, good - 1 hr 55 min A time (but also a case where she woke up, peep, got quiet.  Would be 1 hr 15 off of out of bed time).
6 - 2 - good, 1 hr 43 min A time
6 - 1 - good, 1 hr 43 min A time
5 - 31, good - 1 hr 41 min A time
5 - 30, good, 1 hr 46 min A time
5 - 28, good, 1 hr 41 min A time

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2015, 10:15:00 am »
TBH there are so many things affecting sleep (what the previous day & night looked like, whether they're UT or OT overall, discomfort, pain, developmental stuff etc), that it's hard to tell much from just looking at the first A time, except that she seemed to do well on around 1hr 40 minutes A time in the morning.  I would try going back to that for a few days and see if it helps?  I think that probably confirms that her A time for her first nap was OK before we increased it, so if you go back to 1hr 40 / 45 again and then once that nap is back then we can see about her second A time.  She might need a day or two on a lower A time of 1hr 30 if she's generally OT, before taking it back up to 1hr 40 - see how you go. 



Offline hkrmom

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2015, 11:14:50 am »
Ok I'll try it.  She's pretty Ot in general so may go 1 hr 30 today.  She woke at 5 am this morning and went back to sleep, but I'm sure will be tired when she gets up.

Do I use that all day? What if she has a short nap? Do I cut time off?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: What does a broken nap mean?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2015, 17:08:50 pm »
I would use 1hr 30 all day, yes, but I wouldn't go below that for a short nap as it's already a lower A time than she normally needs.  Let me know how you get on :)