Time to drop the nap?

[SukieCat]

DS (3 yo) has been a great sleeper for a couple of years.  Up until a month ago he'd sleep 8pm - 7 or 8am and take a 2 hour midday nap.  In Feb we had a baby, and shortly after he turned 3 in April, his sleep got all messed up.  He's started staying up until 9, 10pm and waking at 6am (we still put him to bed at 8, he just doesn't go to sleep).  We cap his naps at 1-1.5hr, but lately he's been fighting his nap.  It used to be 2-4pm, but yesterday he didn't get to sleep until 3:30.  I'm not sure if we should make his naps shorter, move them earlier in the day, or just drop them altogether.  With a new baby, I'm sometimes asleep before he is and I miss my evenings!  He's also an overtired, cranky, 3-year old mess most days and I miss my happy, well-rested boy.  Any advice?

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) That must be frustrating with a baby too! Quite normal for 3yo I think, not necessarily a sign he's dropping that nap. What sort of A time does he typically do before a nap? We went to 7h before dropping the nap, some may go longer? I wouldn't expect that he'd settle better if you tried for the nap earlier, rather I'd tend to push it a little later (you may not even need to go very much later, we had success with 15min increments), as with the same length nap he'll be a bit more tired afterwards if the morning was longer.

I'd recommend a gro-clock, have you come across them? Shows clearly when it's time to sleep and how long until it's time to get up, without them having to know how to tell the time. You can set a time to get up in the morning and also a time to get up from the nap. I used to set it for an hour after he went into his room to nap, if he didn't nap I'd just move BT forward but not by the whole hour, probably half,an hour. You might find the novelty factor of this clock appeals to him

Also, do you black out his room? Seeing the sun setting later and rising earlier might be contributing to his problems at night. Finally, could you talk to him about how much he needs his sleep and explain briefly that he'll feel better after a good nap/night? 3yo can be a tricky time, seems there's a lot going on but it sounds to me like it's worth persisting with the nap for now and this phase will pass! HTH...

[SukieCat]

Thanks for your reply!  Yesterday he didn't fight the nap as much, he fell asleep around 2:15.  But he didn't get to sleep at BT until 9.  He was doing 7am - 2pm, so 7hr A time.  Sometimes he's up in his room by 6, so that would be an 8hr A time.  We taught him to recognize the 7 on a digital clock, so he at least stays in his room until 7.  We have room-darkening curtains but they aren't blackout.  And when he first started getting up early he'd look behind the curtains and say "But it's daytime!"  I'm mostly just concerned that he's not getting enough sleep, and he's so crabby in the morning.   

[pinkladyangel]

We're having same problem.
Old routine was 7-7 through the night with a 1.15-2.30 nap. Mon and thurs was nnd as he at playschool. We kept his nap the same but pushed bt back to 7.30. Only done for a day so will see how it goes.

[trimbler]

Sorry for slow reply, been away. How long was the nap that day, SukieCat? I really think blackout could help, you can still use a nightlight if he doesn't like it being too dark, but I do wonder if the daylight coming in could be waking him early, or making it harder for him to go back to sleep when he wakes early. There could be some OT at play too causing the EWs if he's not quite getting enough sleep with his nap resistance etc. we've used http://www.magicblackoutblind.co.uk and another type which uses Velcro which I can't remember the name of... Probably not the whole answer, but I'd seriously consider trying it if you can.

Pinklady - how's it going?

[pinkladyangel]

Seems to be working but he's been unwell so wont know for sure until he's properly better.

[trimbler]

Aw poor thing, get well soon DS

[SukieCat]

So we are still having all of the same problems.  The clock thing worked for a couple weeks, but then he realized he could just sneak out early while we're sleeping so that's what he does now.  My husband is a teacher and I'm a SAHM so we aren't regularly up early in the summer unless the kids get us up.  I hate having him wander around the house without one of us awake.  So far my DH has been getting up early and reminding him to go back to his room before 7, but it's not helping.  We're considering a lock or a gate to keep him in there.  And he's still a horribly cranky mess most of the day.  Better black out shades might help, maybe he'd sleep longer in the morning then, or try to go back to sleep.  I think he's just so excited to get up and start his day that he doesn't try to resettle even if he's still tired.  Then he's super cranky when I try to get him up from his naps early.  I think he'd take 3 hour naps if I let him.   

[trimbler]

Hugs, how frustrating how long have his naps been lately? Yes I think a better blackout system could help but it sounds like he's a clever one Not sure about a lock/gate but having said that my DS was never a wanderer, he'd just yell for us instead Could DH perhaps sit outside his door before the time you think he wakes and tell him to go back to bed if he leaves the room? And stay there until 7am? Maybe a consistent approach will pay off in the end, but I realise this is outside my experience, maybe someone else will pop on here who's dealt with 'wanderers' for some advice on that? I'll ask someone if no one appears in the next couple of days Remind me if not! But I suspect whatever you do in the mornings may have to be coupled with a routine tweak.

[SukieCat]

Been trying to cap his naps at 1.5 hours, but honestly, when we've had a rough day and I know he's OT from getting up early, I'll let him sleep for 2 hours.  It's just such a nice break!  DH has been getting up early this week for a conference, so he makes DS go back to his room if he comes out early.   Then he sits in his room and cries/yells until we tell him he can come out. He's been getting up at about 6:30.  I don't really get it, he was good at waiting until 7 for a couple of weeks, so I know he gets the concept.  We're going out of town for a week next week, so everything will get all messed up then.  I'm kind of hoping for a bit of a reset when we get back.  I'm getting new blackout curtains delivered tomorrow, we'll see if those help.  Thanks for your suggestions!

[trimbler]

Oh dear, I do wonder if you're just going to have to be brutal and cap that nap, even when he's tired from being up early, it sounds like he might just be using it to catch up on lost night sleep, then he doesn't need the longer night but is tired again by nap time from being up so early? I know it took me by surprise to see how quickly DS's nap needed to shorten to help him get enough sleep at night. Some LOs seem to do well on a shorter night and hate being woken from their nap so will end up with short nights and cope ok with that. But if he seems really tired in the mornings then my guess would be that he needs a longer night and that nap just has to get shorter. Sleep needs do gradually decrease overall, although you may find that when he does drop the nap he'll end up getting a little more overall sleep for a while until he gets used to it. What do you think?

[SukieCat]

I think you're probably right about capping the nap.  Do you think 1.5 hr is enough of a cap, or even more?  Ugh, I hate giving it up!  But he's once again up past 9 or later even though we're putting him to bed at 8, and waking at 6:30 or earlier.  Although today he made it all the way to 7:20! It was amazing!  But I have no idea why it happened, hah.  He must have just been tired.

[trimbler]

Glad he's had a catch up, hope he doesn't refuse the nap now... As for how long to try, have you consistently kept it at 1.5h for a few days and watched what happens, or do you let him have 2h when he seems more tired? Iiwm I'd try sticking to 1.5h rigidly, personally I'd also go for fixed WU (well, up time!) and fixed nap time for a few days and see what happens. If 1.5h clearly isn't working, try 1h 15, or even just 1h. I know it's hard to see it go But hopefully you should be compensated by getting your evenings back

[pinkladyangel]

Sukiecat we are in the same boat i think.
Our lil man is using his naps to catch up on a bad night and is then ut at bedtime. We already on a 1hr nap. Am thinking scrap the nap and do ebt.

[trimbler]

So what are your A times before the nap? Can you push it later? Some LOs find a longer A time will make them more tired but if you continue to cap the nap at the same length then they'll have some extra tiredness by BT. Or some will push the nap later but keep the WU time after the nap consistent, ie capping further too. I always preferred to either push later or cap more, we went to 45mins before nap refusal etc started regularly, so went to 1h quiet time, but I appreciate yours aren't having problems settling for the nap.

Have either of them ever had a NND for whatever reason and if so, how did they handle it? I found this a useful indicator of how ready DS was to drop his nap - the first time he had to have a NND as we were out all day, he was a complete mess by 3/4pm so I knew we still had some way to go; as he got older he handled such days better and could go to 5pm before meltdown.

[SukieCat]

We just got back from being out of town for a week, so nap times and bed times were all over the place.  The first day when we were traveling he didn't nap (I know, it's weird he doesn't sleep in the car), and he was ok that day, not a nightmare like I feared he would be without a nap.  But then today he managed a short nap in the car, but by BT he was a wreck.  This week we'll try strict capping.  I'll start with 1.5 hr and see where that gets us.

[trimbler]

All the best - how's it going?