Author Topic: changing routine for 15 weeks during playschool drop offs/pick ups  (Read 3572 times)

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Offline wilow

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Hi!
I just need some advise how to adopt and change routine for 15 week baby during playschool drop offs/pick ups.
I have DS1 - 2 years old and he is going to playschool 3 times a week. Start at 9 am finish at 12.30pm. I drive him with the car around 8.40am and pick him up around 12.30pm.
The problem I have is with my DS2 he wont take a long nap in car seat or pram to be honest as well. He naps only 30 minutes and does not matter if we move or stop. I try to leave him in car seat but he is crying and he is not able to go back to sleep. I also try put him in the crib but it doesn't work as well. He s crying and cant resettle. He doesn't have problem to do this if he fall asleep in the crib. Usually he sleep good at night.
So we end up with 2 really short naps in the morning. I put him to sleep afternoon in the crib but he doesn't sleep any longer then 1.40hr. By the evening he is so tired that doesn't want to feed - I BF him. I also have problem with DF then so e is awaking at night more often an WU at 6am.
I try change his routine from 3 to 4 hours but after short naps he cannot manage 1.45 hour A time. What I should do?? He is ok any other days. If I don't go for walk because he wont sleep in the pram - awake after 40 min. and will not back to sleep. I even bought snooze shade but it doesn't work for him.
thank you for any help.

Offline trimbler

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Hi wilow, I sympathise with your situation, I've also been working around preschool drop offs and collections this year, although ours is within walking distance (and hour round trip) so DD napped in the sling to start with, until her A times were long enough for her to take her first nap in her cot once we got home. You may be nearing that time now? I tried to arrange her night feedings and morning WU time so that I'd get her up and feed at the latest possible time to still be able to get out on time for preschool, so that she could last until we got home. Do you think you could do that or would she always fall asleep in the car seat however hard you tried to keep her awake? What happened here is that her first nap time would always be fixed at 9.20, which is the earliest I can get her down, but as her ideal morning A time increased, I'd wake her up gradually earlier. When she EWs I've let her chat/fuss a bit in her cot but always got her up at the same time, she's been fine with that and at least then she's still resting so won't get as tired. Of course I had to train DS to be super quiet when he got up before DD, we'd have our breakfast before she got up then feed her and go. What do you think?



Offline wilow

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Hi. Thx for response.
He was always getting up around 7 so I cant extend this I tried. Sometimes he is up 6.30am I do not go to him till 7am this is his feeding time and WU time. I tried to keep him awake in the car but he just fall asleep in the car seat. I wouldnt mind if he sleeps there but he is not able. He is independent sleeper most of the times and can go back to sleep if he is not too tired but he as to be in his cot. My older son cannot be quiet if I ask him he would scream more so I dont do that and if my DS2 tries to fall asleep in car seat he would jump around like crazy. So by the time we get to the car he is really tired. His second nap will start now just before I need to go pick up my older so I put him the car seat he would fall asleep but awaking when put in the car and then just sleeping with one eye open :)
The worse is that I cannot follow the easy in these days I dont know when to feed him and how long he should be awake ater short nap. Sometimes I think to put him earlier to sleep but then his feeding time is coming so Iam confuse what to do.

Offline trimbler

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Hmmm tricky! Sorry just reread and saw that your DS1 is only 2, harder to keep him quiet than a 4yo... I still wonder whether you can work on pushing his morning WU later, if you can get it to 7.30 then he might just make it until you get home? When does DS1 get up? Can he go somewhere where he won't disturb DS2 so much or is that not possible with the layout of your home? Something to consider anyway, but I appreciate that even if you get there, you need a solution for the meantime.

Do you have any other props you can use for getting him back to sleep after a short car nap? Just temporarily, until he can stretch his A times? Could you post a typical playschool and normal day so I can see what A times are working for him. Are you still doing a late pm catnap? I AP'd this for a while before DD was ready to drop it, can definitely help get to a decent BT with less OT, even if only 10mins.

Eg:
WU 6.30
Up and E 7am
S 9-9.30 in car (or whatever)
Etc...



Offline wilow

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Last few day everything went wrong with my DS2 he was napping great in his Moses basket but we moved him into cot last weekend and now I have all naps 45 min!!! help!! he wont resettle. Sometimes he does not cry but not sleeping as well....I try to extend his A time but it is not working now. His routine in good days and when we dont go to playschool or for walk in buggy

WU and BF 7am
A 1.40
S 8.40 - 10.00-10.15am
E 10.15am
A 1.40
S 11.50 - 1.30pm
E 1.30pm
A 1.40
S 3.10 - 4.40
E 4.40pm
A 1.20
CN 6pm - 30 min in the pram or swing
BT  routine7pm bath every second day, book or song
BF 7.30pm
sleep by 8pm
DF 10.30 - 11.00 for 12 minutes
NF around 3 or 4 am
WU between 6.30 - 7.00am

Last few days
WU 6am
BF 7am
A 2.30hr
S 8.40 - 9.20 cannot resettle
E 10.15
A 2hr
S 11.20 - 12.20 cannot resettle
E 1.30
A 2 hr
S 3.00 - 3.40 cannot resettle
E 4.40
S 6.00 - 6.30
BF 7.00
BT 7.30
Sleep 9.00pm
DF 10.pm
NF 3
WU 6 am

I try shush and pat but he is crying even more PU/PD does not work as well he is more awake then.

Wen we go to school the day goes like this
WU 7 and BF
Sleep in car for 30-40 min from 8.40 - 9.20
E 10.15
Sleep in cot from 11.45 to 12.15 I put him into car seat then sometimes he fall asleep for 20 minutes sometimes not
E 1.30
Sleep in cot 3.00 - 5.00
E 5.00
He does not take CN these days sometimes he might fall asleep for 30 min around 6pm
BT routine 7
BF 7.30
Sleep 8.30pm

He is using soother but only for falling asleep after he spites up. I dont swaddle him any more he does like to feel his hands.
I hope This make any sense Iam desperate now!!

Offline wilow

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I want to add that usually in the night he is sleeping nice after feed. I had few night when he wont go back to sleep after feed for 2hr from 3 till 5 then he is tired and it is some job to put him to sleep. He was sleeping great everywhere till he was 2mths after he refuses to sleep in car or buggy and now even in cot....

One more thing after short nap he is tired by time  have to feed him so he does not feed well and I dont really know when I should put him to sleep when I put him earlier all day going crazy he sleeps when I have to feed him so It is madness. When I put hi earlier should I let him sleep longer or only 1.40 minutes??

Offline trimbler

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(((hugs))) wilow, I know it's hard when they don't nap well especially when you have an older LO to attend to. Some more thoughts and questions...

There's a classic sleep regression around 4mo, I think some LOs start to experience it a little earlier, some later, so you can expect some shenanigans I'm afraid, but he will relearn in time... You might also need to do some more sleep training, the PU/pd board will help more with this, even if you're veering more towards shh pat than PU/pd. A times in general can start to increase too, although you'll need to be careful of OT after short naps.

Do you have any other prop you can use to guarantee a good nap, say, once a day, if needed? I found the sling to help a lot with this, for example, to keep OT at bay.

It may also take some time to get used to the new cot, is the room nice and dark? If not, maybe he can see more now through the cot bars and find it harder to resettle after a short nap?

When you say he won't resettle, are you trying right up until the next feed, or do you get him up and then feed after a period of activity? If the former, you can consider any calm A time in his cot to count as 'half A time' eg if he's lying there calm(ish) but awake for half an hour, consider it equivalent to roughly 15mins of normal activity. Just a rule of thumb which you may find useful.

After a short nap, he will likely need a reduction in A time otherwise he'll likely do another short nap but OT. How much to reduce the A time is tricky - log what happens each day if you can, and see what works. Up to you how much time you want to spend trying to resettle, but you don't have to wait until the next feed time to feed him, as you say, he'll be too tired by then to feed properly and may fall asleep feeding or just be OT by  the time you PD. So don't worry about shortening the interval between feeds. If you're trying to resettle, make sure you get him up with enough time to feed before he needs to sleep again. If you get him up straight away, you might find you can put him down again for another CN in say, 20-30mins and feed afterwards, although I personally haven't had experience with that approach. I guess I just want to say you can be flexible with feed times, perhaps think of feeding every 2.5-3.5h (for,example), rather than strictly every 3.25h. Equally if he ends up doing a long catch-up nap then you can let him nap longer, I'd usually cap at 2h at this stage, although I have let mine do 15mins more at times.

On play school days can you put him down a bit earlier for his second nap? I see your routine for non-playschool days has him asleep at 11.20 for an hour, but you put him down at 11.45 on playschool days? Having said that, has he been having a 2h nap on these days in the afternoon most recently? If so, that's brilliant!

I see he's been having more trouble at BT, I suspect this is OT from all the short napping and resulting long A times - reducing A times after a short nap should help with this and again, don't worry about set BT at this stage, he may end up going to bed earlier if he's been short napping and this is fine as he'll need to catch up with lost daytime sleep during the night.

Does playschool run throughout the summer or do you get a break? If so, how many weeks left before the break? Just wondering how temporary this situation is - if you break for the summer then maybe he'll be ready for a nice long morning nap at home by the time your older LO goes back, which is lovely once it happens :)

Sorry if this is rambling, had dinner in the middle! Let us know your thoughts and we'll walk through this with  you :-*



Offline wilow

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My DS1 is on war path with me now as I constantly ask him to be quiet and obviously he doesn't listen so he tries his boundaries. Also how many time he can slap baby before I got mad .... so crazy dayzzz :) Try to be calm and work this through.

I just want to ask how many naps will take 16 week baby, he was week overdue so he is almost 18w. Is 3 naps enough for him?? Yesterday and today he took 2x 1.45hr and 1x30min nap. He refused to take another nap around 5.30-6 so he ended up with 3h A time before BT and went to sleep at 7.30pm. Is it possible he swap from 4 naps to 3 so quickly?
I do put him at 11. 30 for second nap when going to playschool but he is not tired enough or OT and falls asleep at 11.45-50.
I am flexible with feeding but he is not hungry after 2..5 or 3h any more and feeds only for 5 minutes. I try to extend his feeding so he feeds more and can STTN. I know as well that he has to get used to it to the cot.  I managed several times put him to sleep in car seat while walking and he stayed asleep for 1.30h but he still want sleep in the pram. I dont really like it to keep him in car seat I dont know if this is good for him but it is better then no sleep I suppose.

Sorry for my mistakes but English is not primary language.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 20:58:47 pm by wilow »

Offline trimbler

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Hey brilliant naps the last couple of days :D Yes the switch from 4-3 naps does occur around this age, I'd personally keep offering the 4th nap as some days he may take it, depends on how BT and the night are going - if everything else is going fine and he seems happy on 3 naps then great, especially if he does super naps like today :) you may find he still needs the 4th if the naps didn't go so well.

I hear you on your struggles with DS1, I honestly don't think I'd have managed with a smaller age gap, you're doing brilliantly and it will get easier :)

Sorry I'm no expert in sleep safety but would have thought that some naps in the car seat would be fine, as long as it's not overnight. He's not premature and is 4mo so should be plenty strong enough not to get himself into a position where he can't breathe easily. Well done on getting him to sleep longer in there, that might be your temporary solution until he can have a good morning nap at home in his cot :)

So what did his routine look like the last couple of days with the good naps?



Offline wilow

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Hi. I observed whole week how my LO was sleeping and there is some pattern but also he sometimes refuses to sleep loner at naps. he sleeps at night from about 19.30 to 7.00 - 7.15 am with DF at 22.30 and NF between 4 and 5am.
Last week went like this:

Mon
WU E 7.10am
A 1.40
S 8.38 - 9.22 could not resettle
E 10.26am
A 2.20
S 11.38 - 13.13
E 13.25
A 1.40
S 14.56- 16.36
E 16.49
A 3.00 he did not want to take CN
E 19.15
S 19.31
DF 22.32
NF 5.21
S 6.00

Tuesday
WU E 7.20
A 1.20
S in car seat on the way to shop 8.44 - 10.29
E 10.41
A 1.40
S 12.20 -13.49 in car seat while shopping
E 14.02
A 1.50
S in the car 16.15 - 16.40 waked by older brother
E 16.50
A 1.50
S 18.33 - 19.00
E 19.18
Bt sleep at 20.00
DF 22.51
NF 4.46
S 5.20

Wedn Playschool day
WU E 7.20
A 2.00
S 9.20 - 10.56 not good nap waked few times
E 10.57
A 1.30
S in car seat 12.26 - 12.56 cannot resettle til 13.48 and sleep 14.35
E 14.35
A 1.05
S 15.40 - 16.56
E 17.21
A 2.20
E 18.51
BT sleep at 19.15
DF 22.45
NF 4.09 getting backwards from 5.21 to 4.00??? what is the reason
S 5.00

Thur Playschool day
WU E 7.20
A 1.45
S 8.44 - 10.02 in the car seat I had to drive with him for an hour :/
E 10.44
A 1.45
S 11.43 - 12.09 waked when driving and really crying for next 10 min and did not resettle till feed time
E 13.42
A 3.20!!!
S 15.32 - 16.41
E 17.24
BT and E 18.43
S 19.10 dropped dead
DF 22.45
NF 4.02 earlier again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
did not fell asleep til 5.15

Friday
WU 7.00 E 7.20
A 1.40
S in the cot 8.40 - 10.04
E 10.41
A 2.10
S 12.13 - 14.00 I had to wake him because I had appointment probably he would be sleeping longer he wasn't happy
E. 14.00
A 1.40
S. 15.40 - 16.30
E 17.10
A 3.00!!!!! refuses to take CN between 17.30 and 18.30
BT E 18.50 he was really tired !!!
S 19.30  we see what is going to happen in the night


I can see he doesn't want to take naps after 17.00 awakes around 16.30 and then stay awake till 19.00 what makes him tired and I think that's why he is hungry at night and wakes earlier for feed. I dont know what to do I dont want to put him in bed before 18.30 because probably he will awake before 7am and I dont want this.

Any advise please?? :))

« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 20:10:57 pm by wilow »

Offline trimbler

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Re: changing routine for 15 weeks during playschool drop offs/pick ups
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2015, 21:23:52 pm »
Wow that's a lot to take in, will be great to have a proper look but really need to get to bed so will look more later!

But as for the NF, bear in mind that there's a growth spurt around 4mo so he may just be needing more or getting hungry earlier than before, just for a few days. Not saying this is definitely the case but it may be. How long does he feed at night? Does he fall asleep whilst feeding or stay awake until the time you recorded him as asleep again? Does he feed in just a few mins and then you spend the rest of the time resettling him, or does he linger over the feed? Does he wake at all in the early evening? If he does, and/or if he really struggles to get back to sleep after the NF, that could indicate OT/UT ie routine issues, but otherwise it looks like he does good nights so he may well be getting the sleep he needs overall.

On those days when he refused the 4th nap he'd probably already had sufficient sleep, he only took it on Tuesday when the 3rd nap was short - ok so it was short on Friday too but he'd already had two really good naps. I do think you're just in that phase when some days he needs it and some days he doesn't depending on what happened earlier, and that's fine :)

I can see how things get messed up on playschool days, tbh you're probably doing the best you can for,the time being. If you feel,you need to drive for an hour from time to time then that's ok, he's still sleeping in his cot for other naps so won't forget how to. The alternative, as you know, is to wait until you're home, knowing that at this stage he'll be too OT to take a good nap, but in a few weeks that will change and he'll be able to go the distance and still take a good nap - and you'll be so relieved when that happens :) Did you say whether playschool continues over the summer or do you get a break? Can't say what happened on the preschool collection on Thursday, but a nap of that length can often indicate discomfort of some sort, I wonder if something was bothering him? I do think that you're doing really well with a situation that isn't ideal and it's probably not what you want to hear but it will get easier as he gets a little older. In the meantime, do you feel he's getting enough rest overall? Even if he's tired by the end of the day, does he wake up tired in the morning or refreshed? I'll say it again, I think you're doing really well :-*



Offline wilow

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Re: changing routine for 15 weeks during playschool drop offs/pick ups
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2015, 11:55:20 am »
Yes thank you take a time :)

During the night he is feeding for about 15 min as usually during the day he is taking fool feed sometimes he is falling asleep but usually not. Last night he stirred about 3.45am I gave him soother and he went back to sleep. But he waked up at 6.00!! I fed him and I though he might take another 40 min nap but he did not stayed awake till 7.10am after that I took him out because he started to cry. So I finished with early WU today. I think I would prefer to feed him at 4 haha at least he is sleeping til 7am. He is usually awake around an hour during NF sometimes I need to come back to him few times but usually he can resettle himself. When I count down his sleeping time he sleeps around 14-15 hrs a day is this enough??  During the day he sleeps 4 maybe 4.5 hours around rest then in the night.

Offline wilow

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Re: changing routine for 15 weeks during playschool drop offs/pick ups
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2015, 11:59:45 am »
Oh yes ! Playschool is closed for summer but we are going for 3 weeks holiday in July so I think his routine will go messy again. Specially that we will be sleeping with him in the room now he sleeps in his room plus apartment is small so he would be able to hear everything so I am worrying that he might not sleep well.
On Thursday he could be too hot as was really hot weather but I could not do anything with that.

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Re: changing routine for 15 weeks during playschool drop offs/pick ups
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2015, 21:09:15 pm »
I really think it sounds like he's getting the right amount of sleep overall, 14-15h is usually just right, actually pretty much up until 18mo when it tends to start to drop. Some will do more like 13h, others more like 16h. As they get older they consolidate their naps and transferring some of that daytime sleep to the night.

I'm with you on the NF, especially with the 4mo growth spurt, he's still young and many if not most LOs would still have two NFs (including Df) at this age. I agree it's preferable to have a later WU than at 6!

The reason I asked about playschool over the summer was that maybe you'll have a few weeks to settle and by the time DS1 goes back in September, DS2 may be able to stretch his first A time so that he's not OT by the time you're back from the morning drop-off... You could perhaps also try gently making his WU later by getting him up 10mins later in the morning (he could probably cope with being awake for a few mins in his cot at this age) and then shifting the rest of his routine by 10mins. Unless of course DS1 makes that impossible... Have you come across gro clocks? They're great for toddlers, although I'm not sure if he'd be a little too young for that yet? Anyway just a thought!

Hope you have a lovely time on holiday, I know it's stressful with LOs, will you all be in the same room? Do you use white noise? We've found that really helpful with DD as she's still in our room, I'm sure it helped last weekend when all four of us were in the same hotel room.



Offline wilow

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Re: changing routine for 15 weeks during playschool drop offs/pick ups
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2015, 09:30:42 am »
I already push his WU time till 7.15-7.20am my DS1 gets up around 7am. And we are on the way to 4hr routine now, we are on 3.75hr he can manage 1.50h A time in the morning but after his morning nap 1.75 - 2hr he looks tired quite fast after 1.20 but I try to hold him to 1.40h so then he has 1.5hr nap and CN 35-45 min around 4.30pm but he still have 2.20hr A time before BT and I dont want to put him to bed before 7pm.
Now our day looks like this

WU E 7.20am
A 1.50
S 9.10 - 11.00
E 11.00
A 1.40
S 12.40 -14.10
E 14.30
A 2.20 long A time
S 16.30 - 17.15
E 17.50
A 2.15 long A time
E 19.00
BT asleep 19.30

So we have 2 x 2.20 A time in the end of the day I try push his A time after first nap  but he is ready to sleep very quickly specially when we go for walk. And by the end of the day he is tired but he will not take longer second nap, if could sleep 12.50-14.50 we can do CN 17.20-18.00 then A time before BT will be 1.30. I try Wake to sleep but does not work and when he will awake he is not crying just laying in the bed.

We will stay with DS2 in the room DS1 will be with my mom. I do use white noise sometimes but it is quit noisy anyway I might use it during holidays.