10.5 month old sleep was great...now a complete mess

[mads2014]

Hi guys, its been a while since iv posted here. Things have been great ever since the 4th month sleep regression amd whenever things got messy an increase in A time usually did the trick. Until now. Before, my DD was getting around 2.5 hours day time sleep and STTN. Then wonder week 46 happened and things were hell for a while - early wakings, nightwakings etc. The wonder week passed but the early 5am wakings continued. So i read the post on 10/11 month sleep going wonky and started to cap the first nap to 45 mins. This was working fine however she would only do a 1 hour nap in the afternoon. Then she started waking herself after 45 mins, then 40, then 35, then 30. Always doing 1 hour in the afternoon.

When she was waking after 45 mins, i would do AN at 2. When she woke after 35 mins i would aim for 1.30.

Routine went like this:

W 6
E 6.30
A
S 9.30
E 10.30
A
S 2
E 3
A
A
S 7

But the early wakings still continued at 5am. So i had a look at some sample routines on here and saw one lady was doing 20 minutes for the first nap so i tried this today and its been a DISASTER! I put her down after 2 hours 30 A time to prevent OT but she would not sleep for 1 hr 15 mins. She then slept for 30 mins but was crying out every 5 mins so i dont know if i can even count that. Can anyone explain to me why today didnt work? She STTN last night and 2 hours 30 is not too long of an A is it?

So ladies i am at loss as to what time this first nap should be since iv tried everything! Can anyone please help im desperate!

[newkidontheblock]

Can anyone explain to me why today didnt work? She STTN last night and 2 hours 30 is not too long of an A is it?

It might have been too short, actually. She must have not been tired enough, especially after her good night. Does she usually settle easily with such a short A?

What was your routine looking like when things were good? Could you post a typical day? Has her pm nap always been easier to get? I don't have any experience with short am, long pm actually. I like having a good nap under my belt otherwise it is just too stressful for me. But basically, you would need that second nap to lengthen out or you could just do 2 x 1 hour naps. How does that sound?

[trimbler]

Yeah I agree with Fleur. When she did 35mins in the morning she woke just after 10am and went down again at 1.30, if I understood you correctly? But only did 1h, so that's 3.5h A time after a 35min nap giving you a shorter-than-ideal pm nap. So as Fleur said, I'd try to get her more tired for that 2nd nap to lengthen it, then you can do a longer A to BT without getting OT in the process. As an example, with DS at this age we did:

6.30 Up (even when EW)
9.30-10.00 Nap 1 (over time this shortened to 20mins)
1-3pm Nap 2
6.30/7 BT (ideal time will probably get later with this approach)

[mads2014]

It might have been too short, actually. She must have not been tired enough, especially after her good night. Does she usually settle easily with such a short A?

What was your routine looking like when things were good? Could you post a typical day? Has her pm nap always been easier to get? I don't have any experience with short am, long pm actually. I like having a good nap under my belt otherwise it is just too stressful for me. But basically, you would need that second nap to lengthen out or you could just do 2 x 1 hour naps. How does that sound?

Thanks for the reply. The 2 hour 30 min A was after the 20 minute nap was that still too short of an A? She normally likes fairly long A times, back when things were good i had really pushed her morning A out to 4.5 / 5 hours. It was like this:

W 6
S 10.30 - 11.45
S 3.30 - 4.30
S 7

And then the morning nap started getting shorter and shorter. Iv decided to go for a short capped AM nap and let the lunch time one be long like you did trimbler. So today looked like this:

W 5
S 8.45 - 9.20 uncapped woke herself
S 12.20 - 1.20
S 4.45 exhausted while breastfeeding
W 5.30
After 1 hour walk in walk out stayed by crib until slept at 6.45

I feel so down about the way things are at the moment and im sure he is going to wake up at 5 again tomorrow and i dont know what routine to do since today hasnt been good. This 2-1 transition is so tough ;( and i dont know if the hour walk in walk out is from SA or from her bring overtired. This was day 5 of WIWO so by staying next to her in desperation i hope i havent undone all the work 

[trimbler]

(((Hugs))) I hear you, btdt Just wondering what you do when she EWs? Or rather, what does she do? I guess I've been lucky that mine have both been able to chat in their cots or even fuss a bit, but not in a way that needed my attention, until it was 'time' to get up, ie whatever time I'd decided was 'up' time. Do you think your DD could do that? I just quite like being able to fix that and to fix the time of the first nap and then the second nap too; BT could vary a little depending on how the rest of the day went. Yes, I'll wake when DD wakes early (we're in the same room) but it's more restful to stay in bed So, what time do you want her to get up? Or, what time would you like her first nap to be? Maybe tomorrow try capping at 20-30mins and doing 3h A time after that, see what happens and then you'll have a better idea what to do next time. It,just looks to me like with 35mins nap followed by 3h A time she wasn't tired enough to take a nice long nap, what do you think?

About the wiwo, I didn't quite understand, did she nap 45mins after bf until 5.30, then you started wiwo for BT at 5.45? Was that bf the BT feed? Tbh I'm not surprised she struggled as she'd slept 45mins, then up for 15mins and then she'd probably got a second wind and wasn't ready to go back to sleep. Better next time if you can, to work on keeping her awake during the feed. I've had both of mine get a second wind at BT if they've drifted off during the bf even for just a few minutes, often this meant they were OT.

[mads2014]

Oh thank you so much for the quick reply i already feel better after reading it

When she wakes up she is happy and starts to play, but quickly gets annoyed if i ignore her and starts crying so i bring her in with us where she starts pulling my hair and slapping my husband in the face )) i made a rule i wont get her up before the time i want her awake which is 6. Iv not really thought about what time i would like her first nap to be i always thought i had to go with A times! So what first nap time do you think i should go for? Tomorrow i will cap the first nap at 30 mins.

Sorry i wasnt clear about bedtime, i decided BT should be 5 since she woke from her nap at 1.20. But yes with her last feed she fell asleep, she very rarely does that (and yes for us it means OT too!) i wont let her do that in future thank you for the great advice it didnt occur to me she might get a second wind.

I take it you shouldnt do WIWO when you know they are OT?

[trimbler]

Glad you feel better, just trying to walk with you down a well-trodden path as best as I can

Well fixing the first nap is something I've had to do with both of mine, to fit in with school drop off, either my own or DS's CM when he was young. But I've loved having that consistency, so much easier to tweak fewer variables in the day And whilst we've still had our fair share of EWs and wonky naps, I think the approach has worked fairly well I'm general. Looking at the examples you've given, I'd say aim for the first nap between 9-9.30, try picking a time and sticking to it, see what happens. I personally prefer to go for 3h after 'up' time (as opposed to awake time, which obviously can vary), some go for up to 3.5h. I like shorter because they're a little less tired so perhaps can cope with the capping better; others find their LOs just can't settle after such a short A time, especially on days when they didn't wake early. Or they find they need to push the morning nap later to combat persistent EWs. Maybe try 9am to start with and push later if you need to? You know your LO best! But I'd personally recommend not going any earlier than the time you've decided, however early she wakes, and religiously cap that nap to the time you've decided - I always regret letting her sleep longer for that morning nap to 'catch up', you want her to catch up in her afternoon nap instead so you can start pushing BT out, if that makes sense? I suspect you may need to go shorter than 30mins but let's see what happens - I'm chicken so tend to go for 5min increments

I'm afraid I'm not an expert on wiwo, have used it but DD has been easier in general than DS, and my memories of those days with him are blissfully blurred I've certainly used it when OT, can take longer but I don't think it's contraindicated?

Sorry for my rambly tiredness, hope some of that makes sense!

[mads2014]

Trimbler your rambly tiredness is like gold dust to me! 

So i tried to implement your advice and stuck with it for 3 days, here are the results:

EW 4.50
S 5.45
WU 6.15
S 9.42 - 10.12
S 1.20 (put in cot at 1, 20 mins WIWO) - 2.50
S 6.45 (put in cot at 6.30, 15 mins WIWO)
NW 7.30 sleep after 2 mins of WIWO
NW 7.42 sleep after 20 mins WIWO
NW 4.07 sleep after 5 mins

WU  6
S 9.25 - 9.55
S 1.10 - 2.45
S 6.45
NW 2.30 - 4.10

EW 5.30
WU 6
S 9.30 - 10
S 1.10 - 1.55 resettle 2 - 2.15 resettle 2.20 - 2.45
S 6.10 - 6.50 wiwo for 20 mins
NW 9.30 wide awake 20 mins staring quietly
NW 11

EW 5
WU 6

This morning has been strange as she fell asleep for 20 mins after her morning feed at 6.30 which she has NEVER done before?! Not sure what that is going to do for our schedule today! *worried*

So are there any adjustments i can make from here? Its dawning on me that these EW could be here to stay for a long time 

[newkidontheblock]

Hugs for the EWs, hun. But I have to tell you - I think this is all down to OT. It seems to be a case of not enough day sleep and the pm nap ending too early/too long a gap between pm nap and BT. Wakings after BT, trouble going to sleep and EWs are all indictors of this. My advice would be to push A times slowly and try to get naps to lengthen out and to go for an earlier bedtime if nap2 ends too early. A few days of consistently good naps should fix this:)

[mads2014]

Thank you for the reply and sympathy  That was exactly what i didnt want to hear, OT terrifies me! So going forward do you think i should continue to cap the AM nap at 30 mins as iv been doing? Or let her sleep as long as she likes for both naps? Im not sure how to deal with an OT baby apart from early bedtime.

[newkidontheblock]

If it were me, I would let her sleep for as long as she wants:)

[trimbler]

Hugs I know it's hard As for dealing with an OT baby, I know with DS if I let him catch up in his morning nap, his afternoon nap would suffer and he really needed a nice long one for his night to be any good. Still in the process of working out whether that's the same for DD or not! But you will work out what the right approach is for your LO, and as you know we're here to walk through it with you. If anything we say just doesn't sound right for your LO, have confidence that you know her best And yes, OT's horrible but it always works itself out in the end

[mads2014]

Thanks Ladies. So today i decided to stretch the first A and let her sleep as long as she wants. Weve had a great day nap wise, im so happy! But bedtime has been a scene from a horror film so far. Can you ladies see where i went wrong today?

Last night onwards:
BT 5.35
NW 6.20 resettle easily after 5 mins
NW 7.10 resettle easily after 5 mins
NW 2 - 3 fully awake babbling and crying

W 5.45
WU 6
S 9.45 - 10.45
S 2 - 3.45
BT 6.45 WIWO until 7.20, too exhausted to continue so cuddled her until she slept at 7.35.

I cant work out whether today is from OT or SA leading to OT? Was her last A too long? After a 1 hr 45 min nap i thought she would need a long A?

[trimbler]

Ooh tricky... Looks like she was OT the previous night and may not have completely caught up with that? Did you say what you think her ideal total sleep needs are over 24h? Looking at the A times she'd done previously in the day, 3h may not have been long enough for her to be properly tired by BT, so she may have been protesting about that. However, she'd had 10h 15mins A time when you tried for BT, having probably not caught up on OT from the night before. So cumulatively, she may have had enough A time that day, depending on what her ideal total sleep is. Then you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place, which is why I personally like UT/capped morning naps, because that can help keep their total A time short enough to make BT early enough whilst still having a long enough A time to BT to make them ready for bed, iyswim? Sorry I don't have long maybe I'll try to rephrase that later! But I know other LOs do better if they're allowed to sleep as long as they want, so as I said you 'll need to try one approach a few times before you'll know if it works for yours or not. Hugs! Hang on in there, it will work itself out in the end

[newkidontheblock]

Hmm, agree with Trimbler. Quite a tricky day.Could you post a few more days in a row to see? Your A to bed seems absolutely fine if her A is low - do you think she needs an all round push in A times? Just thinking out loud. If you post a few days, it would be easier to see a pattern

[mads2014]

Hi Guys

Sorry I haven't replied to your last posts for a while. We are getting renovation work done on the house, and things got so bad that I had to move out with LO for a week, very stressful!

DD is a week shy of turning 1. Since we moved back in I have been writing down every day in the form of WU time, naps, bedtime.

Day 1

5.40
10.20 - 11.20
3.05 - 3.55    (tried at 2.30, was just playing in cot)
8.30

no NW

Day 2

6.10
10.20 - 11
2.50 - 3.30
7.30

NW: 8.10, 9.10, 10.20, 11.20, 12

Day 3

5.40
10 - 10.40
2.30 - 3.10
7.10

no NW

Day 4

5.20
9.30 - 10.10        fell asleep in highchair while I was washing dishes!
2.30 - 3.30      i woke her to preserve bedtime
7.45

NW: 10, 2.15 awake for 1 hour

Day 5

4.40 used white noise, fell asleep until 6.30
10.30 - 11.10
4.15 - 4.35         pram nap
7.45

NW: 12 awake for 1.5 hours  crying, tossing and turning, chatting, laughing

Day 6

5.50
10.15 - 12.25       did not want to wake her so decided to do 1 nap and EBT
5.40

NW: 9.50, 2.50

Day 7

6.20
11.40 - 1.10
6.20

NW: 7

Day 8

5
10.05 - 10.40
3.15 - 4
7.30

NW: 9, 1

Day 9

5.45

So I know this 2-1 transition is difficult but I feel like things are all over the place. My issues are the EWs (which are slowly killing me), lots of 40 minute naps, and the NWs. I hate the way every day starts and ends at a different time as I constantly obsessing with A times etc but i cant see how to fix this.

So some questions:

1. What am I doing wrong?! I would love if someone could point out all the mistakes they can see.
2. At this point should I be doing the majority of days with 1 nap and just 2 when things go wonky or try and stick to 2 as much as poss?
3. There are days were she had a really long day, (like day 1 14 hours) were I would have thought she would have lots of NW but then didnt, what does this mean?
4. Likewise there are days were things have got relatively smoothly like day 7, but we still got an EW of 5.

Basically I'm just looking for any advice anyone has to give, I'm getting so desperate now that I'm tempted to go to 1 nap cold turkey as I dont see how things can get any worse...

[newkidontheblock]

My..okay, that is very complicated. So many hugs for you, hun. You must be so tired I can't see a pattern to the days you've posted TBH. But here are just a few suggestions that hopefully will be of some help to you.

Firstly, transitioning to 1 nap is out of the question if her first nap is so early and if it is so short. For a sustainable 1 nap routine, I would say that the nap needs to be 12.30 or later, and needs to be of at least 2 hours in the beginning. If I were in your shoes (and trust me, I was, not so long ago) I would first aim at trying resettle her/keep her in bed dozing/ let her sleep in your arms/feed if necessary at that morning EW. Absolutely do not accept it. I made the mistake of letting DD get up at 6am one day, and I kid you not, but we are still dealing with EWs now. I threw her body clock out of whack somehow. So try to keep her there for as close to normal WU as possible and make a big deal out of waking her up.

Now although I would keep her in bed till normal WU, I would calculate A time from when I felt she was actually 'awake'. Not drowsy but completely awake. This meant that I got a proper nap and she wasn't OT. If our nap length starts to drop, we increase A but we have found that only 5-10 minutes is enough to lengthen it back out.

Then, when I decided to push to 1 nap, I would go for a 1 nap day with EBT if the nap ended 2 pm or later. I even put her to bed at 5.30 for a few days. Since her day sleep totals drop, you have to reduce the day length to compensate and prevent OT, which reinforces NWs and EWs. Wakings soon after BT generally indicate OT. And you always have to look at the whole week, the whole picture, not just the day in question because OT accumulates.

Now if the nap ended too early - anytime before 2 - I would do a 10 minute CN after normal A and then move immediately to BT routine.

So yes, just a few tips that worked for us. The main issue you will have to tackle is that EW..or rather..just keeping her down so that the nap can happen later and so on.

Hope this is of some help!