5-530am waking - can this be changed? Too late?

[newbie_momsie]

Hello,

DD is 5.5 months old and has been wakIng up between 5am to 530am since probably 2 months ago. In the beginning we fed her thinking it was hunger and kept the room dark and no talking so she doesnt think it is playtime. Then we realized on odd but rare occasions she would wake up later so it isnt hunger but probably habitual waking. So we then try to leave her to fall back to sleep on her own which works some days but often not. Sometimes i go in to stroke her back and she woukd fall back to sleep. Now we would leave her in the crib until 6am then go get her up because she wont fall back to sleep after lying in her crib for 30 to 40 min awake. So we start her day.

i tried W2S for 3 days but didnt really work. I go in 45 to 60 min before to do w2s but she still wakes before 6am.

Anything we can do to push wake up time later or just wait it out until she is on solids And older and msybe she will wake later? Should I make her bedtime earlier since she is in her crib by 730pm latest. Pretty long day 530am to 730pm. I feel like 5am is in grained in her!

Thanks!

[newkidontheblock]

Could you post your routine, please? I do agree though, that if a routine tweak won't fix it, then PD for bed earlier. The long days are probably reinforcing the EW due to OT accumulation. !2-12.5 hour days are best

[newbie_momsie]

Thx for your reply!

Our EASY usually look close to this. I posted a 530am and a 630am wake up EASY.

430am to 530am - DD wakes up somewhere between this time. sometimes She falls back to sleep after being awake for 1 hr. Other times we have to hold and rock back to sleep. She doesnt cry. Just babbles and keeps us awake. When she does this at 430am and we Are so tired and can't sleep then i rock her back to sleep rather waiting an hr until she falls back to sleep so hubby and i can go back to sleep sooner.

530 am WU EASY if she CANNOT be rocked back to sleep:

530am awake in crib
615am Eat
830am nap #1 for 1 hr 15 mins to 1 hr 30 mins. Then A time until next feed.
1000am Eat
1230pm nap #2 for 1 hr 15 mins to 1 hr 30 mins. Then A time until next feed
200pm Eat
415pm or 430pm cat nap
500pm wake her up. Activity time until next feed
530pm Eat
630pm or 645pm in bed
falls asleep between 700pm to 730pm.

630am EASY if she CAN fall back to sleep by rocking her from yesterday:

630am WU and eat

850am nap for 1 hr 15min to 1 hr 30 mins. Do A time until next feed.

10:45am eat

1210pm nap for 1 hr 45min. Do A time until next feed

215pm Eat

415pm cat nap for 35 to 45 mins. Do A time until next feed

530pm Eat

645pm put in crib

710pm she falls asleep by herself

Anything we can do to help her sleep longer in the morning? Even waking up at 6am is ok for us. Just really hard if it is before 6am

I also worry for the days she wakes at 530am and doesnt fall back to sleep and that we put her to bed by 645pm is early and reinforces the EW cycle. Is this possible?

TIA! Any help is greatly appreciated!

[newkidontheblock]

So with 3 hours A or with 2.10, you still get a long nap? Wow. 5 minutes makes a difference in his house

630pm or 645pm in bed
falls asleep between 700pm to 730pm.

So she takes that long to settle? Is she happily playing around or upset and needing you?

And finally, does feeding/nursing not help get her back to sleep? That was actually my reaction to all NWs (but only because we hardly ever had them) We never managed to settle DD in her crib at that age. We would offer a bottle, and then PD. If she refused the bottle, hold for a while, PD and hand on chest.

I think that in order to combat the OT, you're going to have to shorten your day and pull BT forward irrespective of WU/naps of the day. And find some way to get her back to sleep in the morning, even if it means sitting with a hand on her or holding - bad advice, I know but anything to get her well rested, yk? WDYT?

[newbie_momsie]

We haven't done 3 hr A time yet. Is my EASY writtwn above confusing? Sorry! We are on to 2.5 hr A time now. i put her in crib awake and she settles within 10min on her own for naps.

For bedtime she is happily rolling and playng with lovey before falling asleep. I cut down her A time to 2 hrs before bedtime since her cat nap is 35 to 45 mins. But seems like she still needs 30 mins more A time to settle faster. But this will make her day more than 12.5 hrs! So not sure to increase A time or just let her lie there.

I tried feeding but then that will make EASY messy. She will nap for 1 hr and wake at 630am or even 7am but then she wont really eat as much. Should i feed half a bottle at 530am and the rest at 7am? But doing this wont really give me any more rest since I have to pump. My DD is on the bottle since the beginning....long story...she wasnt able to latch...

[newbie_momsie]

Also, tonight i put her in her crib by 6:10pm (she was awake since 5:25am) but she is still awake at 640pm! She had a 30 min cat nap and after 1 hr 45 min A time i put her in the crib.

She napped well today too...two 1.5 hr naps so she can't be tired. Do you think she is a low sleep need baby? I try to get her to bed no later than 12.5 hrs today but it seems like she needs more than 13 hrs!

[newkidontheblock]

We haven't done 3 hr A time yet.

Well, it says 5.30 - 8.30 A time:)

WRT to feeding to get her to settle, if it gets her to go back to sleep, why not do it? Most babies will happily feed again once they wake up. EASY is more about following your baby's cues than a firm routine, yk?

Do you have a good bedtime routine in place? As in, does she clearly understand that it is BT?

[newbie_momsie]

This morning I fed her and put her back in the crib. She was still awake rolling and babblingvafter 20 mins. Clearly not tired to go back to sleep. She is slways happy and smiley throughout the day but when it comes to bedtime she takes longer to settle.

Her bedtime routine is the same for all her naps. 2 books and couple of songs in a dim room with white noise. She gets to hold her lovey during storytime. 

[newkidontheblock]

How are things going now?

[newbie_momsie]

Hi! Thx for checking in with me. Nothing has changed. She still wakes up before 6am, doesn't fall asleep for bed time until near 700-730pm. I don't know how to keep her day shorter as the pattern in my journal for her eat, play, sleep is always 13-13.5 hr days i tried shortening cat naps and put her to bed earlier but she will just lie awake or fuss in her crib until 7pm or near 730pm. I feel like 5am to 7pm is her schedule. Sigh!

I saw in another thread you suggested to another mom that you keep WU time set even if baby wakes earlier and you count A time from 7am. How does that work for the first nap? For example...my DD wakes at say 5am...leave in bed until 6am....what time is her first nap then? I would go with 730am countimg from 5am but according to ypur suggestion it would be 930am? wouldnt that be 4.5 hrs of A time?

[newkidontheblock]

Well, my experience with this was at a much later age - DD was close to 11 months when our wonderful EWs started I messed up our routine with too many EBTs.
We also had these early WUs during the 3-2 transition - at that time, I would simply hold her if necessary till normal WU. It worked some days, others it didn't. When the EWs started up again at 10/11 months, I would go in and stroke her back and she would either go back to sleep or at least doze off. We even pick up and hold till normal WU. Basically, I would count all that drowsy and dozing time as sleep time and start A only from the time I felt she was actually awake.

I'm sure that isn't her schedule. Maybe just pushing A to the point where you can drop the catnap will help. EWs is a sign of the 3-2 transition

[newbie_momsie]

Thank you for your reply! Yeah...i agree abiut pushing her A time out to get to the 3-2 transition. Do I need to push all the A times out or just the first one of the day?

[newbie_momsie]

Also...how long should her naps be if i push her A times to 2 hr 45 mins? Thx for your help!

[newkidontheblock]

Do I need to push all the A times out or just the first one of the day?

You can start by pushing the first A time out and see how she handles it. If she is fine, then you can do the same for the others. Do it gradually though and remember to hold at that point for a while to let her body adjust. Too much, too soon causes OT

how long should her naps be if i push her A times to 2 hr 45 mins?

Basically, in order to move to a 2 nap routine, you need A times to lengthen and you need the pm nap to end at a point which doesn't leave too much of a gap to bed. You don't want your LO getting OT, yk? Naps would need to be at least 1.5-2 hours long (which doesn't always happen btw, so don't worry) I had a short napper. We would only get a long am nap. So we did 2 hour am, 1.5 pm -- which soon became 1.5-2 hour am + 1 hour pm and then pm became a catnap.

[newbie_momsie]

Thanks so much for your reply!

Just want to clarify when you said your LO ends up with 1.5-2 hr am nap and 1 hr pm nap (which is the cat nap), correct? Or was there a 3rd 1 hr nap as a cat nap on days your child wouldnt do 2 long naps and her A time is already 2 hr 45min+ ?

How long of a gap should there be from the second nap to bedtime if little one has a short second nap of 1 hr? 2.5hrs or 3 hrs A time? 3 hrs seem long if sge only had 1 hr nap, isn't it?

For example in a 6am to 6pm routine:

6am eat
9am nap
11am eat
2 pm nap - 1 hr
3 pm wake up
5pm eat
530pm bedtime? Or 6pm but will be 3 hr A time?

I hope that once i push out her A time then she will stop waking before 4-5am and i can get her routine to be 7am-7pm.

I appreciate your help!

[newkidontheblock]

1 hr pm nap (which is the cat nap), correct?

That was nap 2. A CN is a shorter nap of 30-45 mins.

Or was there a 3rd 1 hr nap as a cat nap on days your child wouldnt do 2 long naps and her A time is already 2 hr 45min+ ?

For a while, I would do a CN on days when naps were short but after a while, I actively worked on lengthening naps by being in her room at the 30 minute mark and patting her back to sleep if required. I had to stay in the room patting/resting my hand on her for the rest of the nap for 2 weeks (I think). Then I backed off completely and she slept through. Such a relief. Otherwise, if the naps ended too early, I went for an EBT.

How long of a gap should there be from the second nap to bedtime if little one has a short second nap of 1 hr? 2.5hrs or 3 hrs A time? 3 hrs seem long if sge only had 1 hr nap, isn't it?

This depends on your LO. How long a gap does she need to bed? My DD always did her shortest A to bed. We had looong A times through the day but she could wake up from a 2 hour nap at 5 and still would be in bed asleep at 7pm sharp and STTN. She could handle a max of 2.5 hours to bed at that time. It was very easy to tell when I had got a timing wrong because BT was always easy and she always SS (until she didn't. But that's another story) A 1 hour nap isn't really a short nap. 30/45 mins is.

WRT to the routine you posted, try for 6 pm and see what happens. Or try lengthening that nap. I capped to 1 hour because it was too close to bed but you need a bit longer nap to sustain this.

[newbie_momsie]

Thx for your reply!

DD is 6.5 months now since my first posting in this thread. We are getting to 2 hrs 50 mins A  time as of tomorrow so I will be  dropping the cat nap. However her early waking is still happening. I also worry about her feeding because 1 feeding will be dropped As A time approaches 3 hrs. Should I just add more milk per feed then? She takes breastmilk by bottle due to latching/inverted nipple issues.

I think my DD only needs 10 hrs of sleep because no matter how I adjust her routine or when we put her to bed...she usually wakes up after 9.5 to 10 hrs of sleep. Hence she always wake up around 430-530am. Do most parents just hold and rock baby to sleep until the desired wake up time? Does this question belong to a new thread? Thx!

[newkidontheblock]

Your bub might be LSN but 9-10 hours of night sleep only sounds less to me. Especially since she isn't getting too much day sleep either. Let's get through this transition and then re-evaluate:) 5.30 am WUs are just really hard to settle since they have gotten so much sleep already but there are ways to get over this. Getting the routine in order is step 1.

WRT milk feeds - yes, you can add more milk to her bottles and see if she takes in more. I was nursing directly and had the same worries, so I fed twice in every A time but you wouldn't need to do that with bottle feeding

[newbie_momsie]

Thanks again for replying!

Today suppose to ve the day I drop her catnap but not sure if I can because she woke at 530am and I only got her to go back to sleep for 10 mins Feel like the timing will be screwed up for today's bedtime. I tried rocking for 30 mins then i gave up and fed her but still she was pretty awake. If I drop the cat nap her bedtime will be either around 530am (so early) or 6pm today Dependi g if she naps 1.5 hrs or 2 hrs.

What can i do to help her sleep later in the morning after we reach her transition to 2 naps? you mentioned getting a routine...do u mean tweaking our current routine?

Thanks so much, really appreciate your help and being able to talk to you as I feel that there is nobody else i can turn to for help on this.

[newkidontheblock]

A 6pm BT is perfectly fine, and is a necessary part of this transition. I was a big chicken then but during the 2-1, E went to sleep at 5.30 on multiple occasions. It's only for a short while. During the 3-2, I took each day as it came. If nap2 ended at a time that I could comfortably do a 6pm BT, I did EBT. If nap2 ended waaay too early and BT would have to be any earlier than 6, I would do a CN and push BT back a bit. You have to keep being flexible in this manner and slowly phase it out. I did find naps automatically lengthening once we were through this.

EWs just seem to be a part of this transition. Eris went back to normal WU a while after we were firmly on 2 naps. But she needed that specific amount of day sleep. So at that time she needed 2.5 in 12 hours, which is why I would make sure she got 2 proper naps or adjust my length of day accordingly. I know it's hard but just ride it out. It does get better:)

[newbie_momsie]

Thank you....i feel like i have been riding this EW out since March....it is a long time

Today was the first day of the 3 to 2 transition. Naps went well. Everything well until bed time. I don't know what to do!  It has now been 3.5 hrs because she hasn't fallen asleep yet! I really dont want to hold and rock her but i am getting desperate for her to go to sleep. I tried patting her but i think my presence is more distracting. When i go in she will just prop herself up using her hands and arms. now she is doing her mantra cry. Should i just sit tight and wait it out. I know eventually after an hour she will be so tired that she will fall asleep. But is this the way to teach her to fall asleep on her own at bedtime? I know if i go hold her now she will fall asleep faster than waiting it out

[newkidontheblock]

What did the day look like? Do you think she got her second wind? Could you just sit next to her and stroke her back or pat her? Or how about talking softly to her while sitting near her crib?