2-4 NW a night, need help

[adkillip]

My son slept thru the night from 2-4 months, since then he has had NW. He is almost 8 mon and I was hoping these would have decreased by now. On good nights his BT is 8, NW 11:30, NW 2:30, EW 5:30. He typically nurses strong for 10 min and slow for another 10 min. On bad nights: he NW at 10, 12:30, 2:30, 4:30. I have tried only feeding him a little and then putting him down, but he screams and won't be comforted until i let him nurse again to sleep. He is eating solids 3x a day, taking 19oz bottles plus 2 15 min nursing sessions. He naps on average a total of 3-4 hrs a day. Any advice would be apprciated. He is a very active baby (crawling and standing up).

[Kellyjs]

Hi hun, 8mo is a very tricky time for sleep. My previously STTN bubba started waking lots at this time. Luckily with help from the boards I did find out it was because she needed quite a push in A time, so it would be interesting to see how your day looks currently. Would you mind posting your easy for the last couple of days so I can take a peek and see if anything stands out?

Do you settle every NW with feeding? Do you think that's become a prop? Does he go to sleep independently for naps and BT? Sorry for all the questions, just helps to see the bigger picture  x

[adkillip]

I don't mind the questions at all, it might help someone stumble across somethings I am missing.
I know that nursing has most likely become a prop because he does nurse at every NW and for me most naps require nursing. He will nap for me in the car or after crying a bit in the swing. Daycare can put him down for his afternoon nap with no props, but he refuses to do this for me.
I tried pushing his A times this weekend, but we had a bad weekend that became lots of snack feedings of 5 min every 2- 2 1/2 hrs.
His normal EASY:
E: 4-5:30 I call this his last NW feed, then I usually get him to sleep until 7am
wakes at 7am
A: plays in room or carseat during weekday commute to Daycare (45min)
E: 8:00 BF or 6.5 oz bottle, 3-4TBS oamteal
A:
S: 9:00-9:30 depending on how tired I put him down using the swing, Daycare tries but he wont nap for them (typically naps 45 min)
E: 11:30 BF or6.5 oz bottle, 1 - 1 1/2 jars stage 2
S:12:00 (45-1 1/2 for me, 2 hrs for Daycare)
E: 2:30 BF or 6.5 oz bottle
A:
S: 5:00 catnaps on 45 min commute home
E: 5:30 BF, 1 jar stage 2
A:
bedtime routine starts at 7
E: 7:30 BF then down for night

currently NW every 2-3hrs.

[Kellyjs]

Ok, we might have to start with the independent sleeping if you don't mind? I wouldn't recommend feeding at every NW unless you feel he's not taking enough throughout the day? Even then, I'd probably pick one, say after 11pm feed at that one and try ssh/pat or similar to resettle. Oh and before I forget, I would probably feed at the EW for the time being too until we can sort the routine. Don't get me wrong, it might be horrible for a couple of nights, but it will get better ok?myou could offer a tiny bit of water in a bottle rather than milk and pretty soon he'll get the idea. It's worked for so many.

Onto your easy. I think your A times are much too short hun, many 8mo are averaging around 3+ hrs around now. I would probably jump this straight away to 9.45am and see how that goes for a few days. You might need to extend again in time.

It's amazing he's doing a nice 2hr nap at daycare. Many really struggle with daycare naps. This is probably why he's taking a nice long nap at daycare if he's refusing the morning one there.

The next thing is that CN on the way home is definitely messing with your night time sleep. A CN at this age would definitely be phased out a long time ago. But I can also appreciate it must be difficult to keep him awake. I take it you don't put him down for a nap when he's at home at the weekend then?

So for the weekends, I would suggest pushing both those A's. If he's not taking a CN later on in the pm for you and is waking at 12.45/1.30pm that's a really long A to BT and could cause OT NW's.

How does that sound hun? Doable? I'm thinking it's going to be really tricky with the CN in the car on the way home but if you *can limit it to 10mims or so, I really think that'll help xx

[adkillip]

I have been having him catnap on weekends since he was doing it on weekdays to be more consistent. I will work on keeping catnap under 30 to start with since he tends to get cranky at this time (especially noticeable on weekends), hopefully I can phase this out as I get him napping for longer on his 2 naps on weekends. (with later afternoon nap due to extended A time) I will move his naps to coincide more with a 3 hr A time. (I noticed from reading that this was probably one of his problems).
I think those will be the easiest.
The hardest will be resettling without feeding during the earlier NW. Any suggestions, I have attempted once or twice and must not be strong enough. His ear piercing screams when I don't nurse do me in. In the past I have tried rocking, patting, turning on soother, walking with him. He has never soothed even after 30 min of this.
Also should I leave daycare naps alone for now or should I ask them to alter their schedule. I don't know how hard it will be since they have all the kids on an afternoon nap approximately 12-2.

Thank you so much for all your useful advice. I really appreciate the input.

[Kellyjs]

That's ok hun, we all have rough times with these LO's, that's what we're all here for to help each other!

I definitely think that CN is causing you more harm than good hun, many have cut it out 2+ mths ago. I'd probably allow a 15mins CN at most if the naps are super short, but if not, give it up and shoot for a slightly EBT. I understand that if he only naps 45mims for that second nap for you, it'll make things difficult but it really does turn into a kind of UT/OT loop whereas they're so UT for each nap, that they're not getting a fully restorative nap throughout the day and that leads to OT by the end of it iykwim? Definitely push those A's and hope for longer naps. If not, go for EBT at 6.30pm I think.

Have you got anyone to help with the NW's? A partner at all? Sometimes that really does help as they know they won't get any milk from daddy! It's definitely his way of getting back to sleep, and for you not to be there will really help the screaming I think. Remember, he knows what to expect from mummy and you're trying to move the goal posts. Tracy said as well, there's no point giving in as a LO quickly learns that to get it, they need to scream for ever and mummy will give in. It's just painful for the both of you really.

Wrt to daycare, I doubt you'd get much leeway from them. And tbh he's getting a really good nap in there albeit more like a one nap a day routine which he's not quite ready for yet. And they do try with the early nap, he's just not taking it! A wise BW once told me, you can only offer them the sleep, it's up to them to take it  .

An idea might be to move BT slightly later on the daycare days and the nap in the car happens. Wdyt? Perhaps move to 8pm and see if that makes a difference? I really wouldn't do this on the weekend too though if you can help it considering we're trying for a more appropriate routine for his age xx

 

[adkillip]

Thank you for your help! I will use your suggestions on the catnaps, adjusted A times and adjusted BT.
My husband has tried to go in and settle him when he wakes around 11 but he seems to do more harm than good. LO screams and husband has to give up before he looses his cool.
Which NW would you recommend I nurse and which ones should I work on settling him in other ways? My goal is to work on the shh/pat method on the no feed NW.
I am a planner and i feel much better and less stressed (even when things are crazy and he's screaming) if i have it planned out.

I appreciate the timely feedback sooo much!

[Kellyjs]

I love a plan too!

How did last night go? I probably would feed at a NW close to 12pm. Or even that 11pm one if your DH finds it difficult. He may get more success on the later NW's if we've elongated hunger being an issue wdyt? Remember it might get worse before it gets better, but you are the stronger one here. You just need to be consistent and let him know what's expected of him. Eventually it will all fall into place, promise x

[adkillip]

Not sure what changed last night..I was going to see what he did if I didn't let him fall asleep nursing last night and put him down drowsy. Started bed routine at 7;30 and nursing about 7:40. When he started to slow down nursing I tried to detach him. He would sit up and search for boob. The last time I felt him slow down, I detached him and he was asleep. I tried to sit him up to wake him, but I must have missed something because he was dead to the world. Put him in crib at 8pm. He didn't wake until 2:30 and did a short 10 min feed and was in light sleep. Put him in crib and he immediately rolled over to tummy to sleep. Didn't wake until 6am.
I plan on trying again tonight, but it might be the weekend until I really focus on independent sleeping. It will be interesting what NW he has tonight.

[Kellyjs]

That's still amazing hun! Yippee to the lack of NW's! 

I would look at putting him down a little earlier each time, eventually you'll be able to get to putting him in his bed (after a wind-down) awake, not too drowsy as this is really what we want to aim for at this age. It will really help with the independent sleep. I'll find a link for you that should help. Let me know tonight goes ok? X

Gentle Removal Plan

[adkillip]

So last night was back to normal, not horrible but not as great as the night before:
pick up at Daycare:5pm
S: napped in car 45 min.
E: 6pm BF 10 min
A:
E: 6:30 Dinner
A:
S: Bedtime routine started at 7:30, BF 20 min, worked on gentle removal as he slowed down. Several attempts. Last one was successful but he was in light sleep (continued sucking after detached), I help him for 2 min then put in crib asleep
NW: 11:15pm BF 15 min. Gentle removal several times, successful once he was in light sleep, cuddled into me, held for 2 min then put in crib asleep
NW2: 2am, BF 18 min. Gentle removal several times, successful once he was in light sleep, cuddled, attempted to put in crib, woke up crying, held him over shoulder and patted 3 min until he was in light sleep again, put him in crib asleep
EW: 5:30am, BF 10 min in attempt to get back to sleep, but he was wide awake
car ride into Daycare: CN 15 min at 7:15-7:30am

So I am going to continue to work on gentle removal, hoping I can get this earlier and earlier. Any other advice for weekdays?

This weekend I plan on extending A times like we discussed to 3+hrs. And working on 2 naps of 1.5 hrs.

[Kellyjs]

That's brilliant hun, go you! I think the nice gradual approach is not such a shock to their system yk?

I'm not sure what else you can do on a weekday hun. You're trying everything you can. Are they still offering that am nap and he's refusing it? X

[adkillip]

Thank you! Yes I've asked them to continue to try morning nap even though he wont take one.
Question: Do  you think having the two different schedules (weekday and weekend) will present problems as I adjust his weekend schedule? They were similar before other than morning nap. Is there anything I can do to help with this, or is it just something he will adapt to?

Once again thank you for your advice and support it means a lot!

[Kellyjs]

My pleasure hun, yours is a tricksy one! I'd be pulling my hair out if I were you, you sound remarkably cool about it all 

I think it would be ok to keep the same if it wasn't for that late CN tbh. If he did take the morning nap and he had that good 2hr afternoon nap, it would all be roses (well, kind of  ).

All we can do is try and see. Perhaps just give it a go this weekend, if it doesn't work, we can figure out something else ok? There's always another way  x

[adkillip]

What should I do about BT tonight. Last night he had nw at 9:30, 11:45 BF, 3:30 BF, EW 5:00, up at 6. Daycare said he took 10 min CN at 10 and only slept an hr this afternoon. 12:30-1:30. He fell asleep in car at 4:40, I know he has to be tired