Author Topic: Short nights (Read 3468 times)

newkidontheblock · « **on:** June 23, 2015, 09:46:34 am »

Just wanted to know others' experiences regarding an issue we are having. DD is a year old and is on 1 nap with an A time of 5.30 with a nap consistently of 2 hours +. . A set nap time doesn't really work for her yet and so we are still going by A times. However, since May, we have been dealing with short nights/EWs. My first thought was that it was OT accumulated during the 2-1 transition or the fact that it was getting bright so much earlier since it is summer. But she is absolutely well rested at this point and yet we are getting short nights. Previously, we would always get 12 hour nights -- sometimes 13 or 14 hour nights on EBT days. Right now though, our nights are 11 hours max - sometimes even 10.5 (and I'm sure it isn't OT)

I'm wondering if this is simply a normal phase that they go through. If so, since I am absolutely unwilling to start my day before 7am, should I be opting for a longer day(13 hours)/ pushing BT back to 8pm?

Just to give you an idea of our day
WU - 7
Nap - 12.30 - 2.30/3
BT - 7

I did read that a too long A to bed might be an issue and A to bed should be 4 - 4.5 hours max. What are your thoughts on this? This past week, I tried shifting our day later, ie : 8/8.30 BT which then gave me a later WU for a few days but then back to 7am (10.5 hour night)

Am I on the right track?

creations · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2015, 11:19:37 am »

Quote from: newkidontheblock on June 23, 2015, 09:46:34 am

our nights are 11 hours max - sometimes even 10.5

That's about all DS ever did. Only as very little baby did he do a longer night and again at transitions, 10.5-11hrs was really his standard night length. At 1yo he was doing a 2hr nap with that night and continued to do so for a long time (the nap moved later when needed), until 2yo. Then we started going off track a bit moving towards the 1-0.
Our routine before the 1-0 was
WU 6.30
nap 2 - 4
BT 8.00

Initially I wasn't a fan of the BT move to 8pm (I was done by the end of the day and just wanted him in bed to get my Y time!) but once we settled into it, actually it was great. And when I had to bring BT earlier (1-0) it felt like the day was too short!
He did 12hr nights after nap drop right the way up to 4yr 4 months, so you may have that to look forward to

Quote from: newkidontheblock on June 23, 2015, 09:46:34 am

I did read that a too long A to bed might be an issue and A to bed should be 4 - 4.5 hours max.

I think it really depends on LO. Mine liked a short last A but some won't sleep after only 4hrs awake time.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2015, 12:32:25 pm »

What does her day actually look like Fleur with a short night? The routine above has a 12h night so not quite sure how things are playing out for you guys right now?

I can't get more than about 11-11.5 out of B, we had a week or two of 12h now back to 11-11.5 even on rubbish nap days

and although I've not tried super EBT, EBT doesn't seem to give longer nights. We are in a similar place I think (without such great naps) of probably needing a later bedtime.

athenasmom · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2015, 15:07:53 pm »

Same experience here as Creations. As you know the standard here is 10.5 - 11 hours too. The 8 pm BT works well here as I work full time though. I think it is normal that the nights are shortened when the LO settles into the 1 nap routine. It is nice that E is doing a nice long nap. A has recently shortened her nap to about 1:45 min to 2:00 hours from the usual 2+ hours

I think whether you do longer 1st A or longer 2nd A depends on the child. A cannot handle a too long 1st A time but can go on forever after the nap and not get OT given she had a good nap. But looking on Creation's routine her LO did a super long 1st A and a shorter 2nd one. So you might have to experiment with it a little and see what suits you guys the best.

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2015, 15:21:55 pm »

Thanks for both of your replies:)

Katherine, if you don't mind, I'll post a few days so that you can get a general idea
19th
6.30 - WU but RS
8.30 - I woke her ( we all overslept)
Nap: 2 - 4
BT - 8

20th
8.20 - WU
Nap: 1.50 - 4.20 (2.5 hours)
BT- 8.30

21st
7.20 - WU
Nap: 12.45 -3.30
Sleep - 8

22nd
6 am WU

..and we're back to normal EW today too. I know those days seem fine but even with pushing the day so late, she still went back to the EW time, you see? And before this week, we don't have a single day with a 7 am WU, even though BT was fixed at 7pm. She woke between 5.30 & 6 every single day. Ugh. I've stopped even trying/aiming for a fixed WU as we never make it to that time and I am moving things around in the hopes that something will click. We do stay in her room in dark till as close to normal WU as possible though. Sorry to hear that B is back to his short nights. I thought they had finally lengthened out. Naps are fine here and even if we get a short nap, I go for a 10 min CN and normal BT of 7pm. EBT is simply not an option anymore as she simply wakes up even earlier and completely refreshed! Lol

That's a long day your DS was doing, creations.

Quote from: creations on June 23, 2015, 11:19:37 am

Initially I wasn't a fan of the BT move to 8pm (I was done by the end of the day and just wanted him in bed to get my Y time!)

Exactly! I did not like this past week at all. I had no time to myself at all. After I got her down, had dinner and pumped, it was already waaay late. And also what about days when she has trouble going to sleep & I need to settle her - everything would just be so late.

Quote from: creations on June 23, 2015, 11:19:37 am

Mine liked a short last A but some won't sleep after only 4hrs awake time.

Mine liked a short A too. 3 was the absolute max she would do. Until we sleep trained and now anything goes. It's a bit disconcerting, TBH. It's like the wild wild west here and all bets are off.

So I thought about it a bit more. What if, she is getting too much day sleep atm but capping isn't an option otherwise it would be too long an A to bed. So basically, maybe all I have to do is wait till I can push A some more and then as the nap gets later, I could cap it and then hopefully nights would lengthen? Am I making any sense?

Posted with you, Suzanna. Thanks for popping in:) I have been spoilt with these long nights!

creations · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2015, 18:36:12 pm »

Quote from: newkidontheblock on June 23, 2015, 15:21:55 pm

So I thought about it a bit more. What if, she is getting too much day sleep atm but capping isn't an option otherwise it would be too long an A to bed. So basically, maybe all I have to do is wait till I can push A some more and then as the nap gets later, I could cap it and then hopefully nights would lengthen? Am I making any sense?

It makes sense in theory and many LOs will do a steady night with the first A gradually extended and the nap ending at the same time each day (so same A to bed but nap is getting shorter), but then other LOs just will not do this. Will not. Doesn't matter how much you tell them it works in theory, they have their own theory...
My DS's theory was 'I really need my 2hr nap and I will have to continue to have a full 2 hr nap even if the nights end up being under 10 hrs, even under 9hrs...I still need that 2 hr nap because I NEED it!"

Quote from: newkidontheblock on June 23, 2015, 15:21:55 pm

That's a long day your DS was doing, creations.

Yep. And he looked low sleep needs, but yk at 4yo he looks like high sleep needs as he's done 12hr nights from 2.5 until over 4yo and I've only just reduced his night to 11hr 45 a few weeks back.
I found we all settled into the later BT routine in the end, it was really enjoyable having him up longer, at least it was way more enjoyable than calls backs at BT or waking up at 5am. I know it is daunting but any routine change takes time to become comfortable doesn't it.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2015, 19:06:59 pm »

Just thought I'd share my experience with you fleur is that's ok?

At 1yo DD was taking a mammoth 2.5hr nap and doing 12hr nights for around 3 weeks I think. Brilliant as it was a hot summer and I got plenty of lazing around time and BW time of course

It must've been developmental as she soon reverted to 10.5hr night after that. I posted on here at the time wondering about OT. I cut the nap back to 2hrs and we had steady 11hr nights (pretty much, except for the 18mo SR and teething) until a few months ago.

We did:
Wu 6.30
Nap 12.30-2.30
BT 7 with asleep by 7.30 (always has done the 30mins getting to sleep at BT thing).

Hth x

Eta - oh and I've always woken DD at 6.30! I need my Y time in the evenings, so I've just always woken her. My thought was if she wanted the extra sleep she'd stop faffing around at BT and go to sleep then, still hasn't happened, mind you. Even on a NND now she'll play around for 20+ mins

trimbler · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2015, 21:53:22 pm »

Fleur this reminds me so much of when DS finally went to one nap at 18mo! Once he'd settled on it he did a 2.5h nap for a few weeks, then the EWs started... I thought OT but I just couldn't get any more sleep into him no matter what I tried, until I started capping that nap, I was amazed how quickly it went to 2h for a better night's sleep, but that seemed to be the solution. So you don't necessarily have to wait to push it out before starting to cap, just a thought!

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #8 on:** June 24, 2015, 09:00:52 am »

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Creations, Kelly and Trimbler. Kelly, what a super cute pic! I guess I just have to roll with these nights then. What is confusing me is whether this is just how things are now or is there something I am not seeing, yk? It doesn't add up to me that she would all of a sudden shorten her nights so much. We've been getting a long nap since she was 7 mo, so that isn't it.

Trimbler, I'm not capping because on days with EWs, it would leave too long a gap till BT and then I'd have OT to deal with.

That being said, we had our worst night ever yesterday. Our day was
7 - WU ( asleep at 8.50 the night before to keep a 12.5 hour day, so super short night)
Nap: 12.30 - 3
BT - 7.30
She seemed asleep, then WU howling in 10 minutes and would not settle at all. I finally nursed (something I have been avoiding as we had a prop created) and she slept at 8.15
NW - 1 (DH sat by her crib trying to soothe her for 1.5 hours! She did not even want a bottle. Finally he picked her up and gave her a hug, and then she slept. So so so strange
EW - 6am (DH resettled)
Up for the day at 8 (overslept again after the awful night)

trimbler · « **Reply #9 on:** June 24, 2015, 09:11:32 am »

(((Hugs))) Fleur, poor all of you! Could you try capping today, after the later start? You don't have to keep to a 12.5h day, do you? Or is it that Eris has never done more than 11.5h at night? Some LOs manage longer nights as they get older, others don't, so just ignore me if I'm completely on the wrong track

jessmum46 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2015, 09:42:56 am »

Hugs Fleur, fwiw that type of waking pattern/trouble settling would be discomfort-related here. Hope there's nothing like that upsetting Eris xx

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #11 on:** June 24, 2015, 10:35:16 am »

Quote from: trimbler on June 24, 2015, 09:11:32 am

Could you try capping today, after the later start?

Thanks, trimbler and Katherine. Yes, I've capped the nap today at 3pm - just 1.40 minutes. Trimber, Eris always did long nights - 12 hours minimum. Katherine, I was literally crossing my fingers & toes for teeth. Everything is still normal. Blast!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2015, 18:09:20 pm »

Molars can cause havoc before they make an appearance hun, it just tends to be on and off. Hope it is teeth, bad as that sounds

xx

trimbler · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2015, 19:58:15 pm »

Haha Fleur and I are still waiting for the first incisor

Kellyjs · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2015, 20:13:30 pm »

Whoops, sorry guys are you really?! Excellent. Studies have shown the later the better! Means they'll be later shedding their deciduous teeth (baby teeth) therefore later producing permanent teeth and having them later on in life (sugar content and lifestyle and tooth brushing skills taken into consideration)

. Still FX for teeth for you though xx

trimbler · « **Reply #15 on:** June 24, 2015, 20:41:22 pm »

Yeah thanks I'd heard that too, good to think positively about it

The other thing I've heard, no idea if it's true though, is that they're more likely to come all at once - not so keen on that idea

jessmum46 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 24, 2015, 21:05:10 pm »

We are stuffed then - 14 teeth already at 12 months!!! Going to have a toothless wonder by age 12

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2015, 02:05:29 am »

That's a positive way of looking at it, Kelly:) thank you

Yesterday
8-WU
1.20-3: nap
BT- 7.15
Up for the day at 6.30.

trimbler · « **Reply #18 on:** June 25, 2015, 06:31:42 am »

Ok, how was the night - short, I know, but any NWs? How does she seem this morning? Personally I'd have probably capped the nap a little less, so keeping 2h at least, to push BT a little more, what do you think?

jessmum46 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 25, 2015, 06:45:51 am »

I wouldn't call that a short night, 11h15 mins really is pretty acceptable though granted not a long night like she was doing before. But she only had a total of just over 9.5h A time, perhaps she wasn't tired enough to sleep any longer yk?

Kellyjs · « **Reply #20 on:** June 25, 2015, 07:27:56 am »

Totally agree with Katherine. That's a great night! Hows her mood this morning?

And Katherine, Ben will love it! He'll be losing all his teeth before his school friends and be loaded with money from the tooth fairy

. The opposite for you two though, they'll wonder why the tooth fairy hasn't come for them yet!!

Not so sure about them coming all at once, but suppose every bubba is different. Personally I think I'd prefer that, a couple of months of agro rather than endless years of it

x

trimbler · « **Reply #21 on:** June 25, 2015, 08:31:18 am »

Oh yes sorry I completely misread and thought she was down at 8pm rather than 7.15!

Katherine I certainly haven't envied you with all that teething this year, at least he'll be done with it soon

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #22 on:** June 25, 2015, 12:43:54 pm »

Quote from: jessmum46 on June 25, 2015, 06:45:51 am

1h15 mins really is pretty acceptable

I totally agree. 6-6.30 is acceptable but that blasted 5.30 is killing me. However, still a short night for her yk? But I think it is a case of sleep needs having dropped and so she is overall needing only 13-13.5

jessmum46 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 25, 2015, 14:24:25 pm »

We are in totally the same place Fleur, it's horrible. 5.30 is my every day right now though

but with naps here there and everywhere consistency is harder. Not my thread though!

My thought would be for Eris if she does 13-13.5 as a total then work a routine around that based on desired and acceptable WU time. So if desired WU is 7, but 6.30 would be ok, then wake her every day by 7 and nap is at 12/12.30. Wake from nap by 2.30, and then BT at 7.30pm. That gives her 5.5h A, 2-2.5h nap, and 11-11.5h at night.

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #24 on:** June 25, 2015, 15:24:45 pm »

Good plan. I MUST wake her at 7am:p But as soon as I decide that she one ups me and wakes at 5.30 and will not settle. Lol. Okay, so I had actually thought of something similar - nap ending at 2.30 latest. But I'm a bit worried about pushing BT to 7.30. I will try it though:)

jessmum46 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 25, 2015, 15:48:47 pm »

Good luck Fleur, I'm no expert (if I was B wouldn't wake constantly at awful o'clock....) but fingers crossed on such good naps it will work well for Eris xx

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #26 on:** June 25, 2015, 16:01:34 pm »

Thank you, Katherine. Fingers and toes crossed for you too

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #27 on:** July 02, 2015, 15:19:01 pm »

Hi ladies. Just updating. Still getting the EWs on some days. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to it or any reason TBH. So either we have an EW and we keep her down till normal WU or at least keep her in bed till then or we oversleep.To be absolutely frank, I am unable to WU on time nowadays. I'm so very tired and I sleep through the alarm (or I'm already up with her) I am giving up on a fixed WU time but BT is pretty fixed between & & 7.30. I don't think any tweaking is going to fix this because she isn't OT/nap isn't too early/ any of the other reasons. Many toddlers seem to go through this phase, right?

ginger428 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 02, 2015, 18:10:41 pm »

Are you capping the nap at 2:30 now? Glad you did end up between 7 and 7:30. Your bravery paid off!

You mentioned that you pushed the day later on my thread... do you mean that you kept same BT no matter WU and naps?

Yeah, if she's happy in bed when she wakes, there probably isn't any reason for it, huh? And it sounds like you need that rest in the morning so I understand!

Oh and I meant to ask... are you keeping nap at 12:30 no matter the WU time? What's E's A in the morning?

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #29 on:** July 03, 2015, 02:41:34 am »

Her A is 5.5 right now, Ginger. I suspect that she can do longer (especially since we're in ANOTHER WW) but not pushing yet. So see, since I am back at work in the morning, an early nap throws my day off because I like to be back before she wakes up. If Eris has an EW, we do whatever we can to resettle her. She generally doesn't need a feed but we offer a bottle as a last resort. Otherwise DH sits on the floor and talks her back down or holds her for a while till she drops off on his shoulder and then PDs. Our aim is to keep her in there asleep or drowsy for as long as possible. And I count A from the time we feel she actually 'woke'. Drowsy time doesn't count. So nap isn't at 12.30 every day, only on 7am WU days but it is always 5.5 hours later and BT is ending up around 5 hours after that.
I'm going for a 7 pm BT (but we get a bit late due to long nursies) with a nap ending 1.30 or later. Right now we're at a point where she can handle it but just a short while ago, I would do a 10 minute CN in the sling to get her refreshed enough for bed time routine and stuff

And guess what? Today I had to WAKE HER at 7.30 and she was such a grump about it. Lol. This happens once in a blue moon. 12 hour night after ages but she only got 1.5 hours day sleep yesterday

Martini~ · « **Reply #30 on:** July 03, 2015, 10:59:03 am »

Hi Fleur - all already said everything so just popping with some small support.

Agree with the ladies that sleep needs drop that age, but my general advice would be:
- going towards set times rather then A time; mainly to stress less... I have to tell you that I was more stressed with EWU as thinking how the day will go after 5:30 WU and how tired F will be, what time the nap should be etc; now if he wakes earlier, I just say to myself "fine, your choice... not to sleep, but the nap is at 12"
- we are doing nap at 12 but F is in the nursery 5 days a week and really tired so different story; I read that when they get older moving nap is important to prevent EWU but general sleep needs are not changing... ykwim? so you just move the nap, making morning A longer, but keeping afternoon A shorter; they just need A blocked in one longer slot
- stuck to a routine; we already went through different stages of 1-2 weeks of fuffing at BT or unhappy WU but I just stick to the routine and it passes
- are you BF before or after bath in the evening? it's worth moving it 30min before settling so for them no to join these two moments.

hth

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #31 on:** July 03, 2015, 14:46:15 pm »

Thanks for support and advice, lovely Marta:)

Quote from: Martii85 on July 03, 2015, 10:59:03 am

so you just move the nap, making morning A longer, but keeping afternoon A shorter; they just need A blocked in one longer slot

This is exactly what I was going for but I feel with E, instead of short A to bed, I will have to start capping the nap as she seems to need a longer A now. Lol. Keeps me on my toes, this one!

trimbler · « **Reply #32 on:** July 03, 2015, 18:32:23 pm »

Yes I think many LOs take nice long naps once settled on the 1 nap routine, but then start to need it capped, I know my DS did, although he was older! So I'd push his nap gradually later as needed, but also cap it when needed.

athenasmom · « **Reply #33 on:** July 05, 2015, 05:44:46 am »

DD capped her naps on her own now that we settled into the 1 nap routine. Our 2.5 + hour naps are now reduced to 1 hour 45 min or 2 hours max if she had a shorter night. On the other hand our nights got a little longer and now are usually over 11 hours. Unfortunately not uninterrupted though. But that's another issue

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #34 on:** July 05, 2015, 07:23:43 am »

The past 2 days, we've had short naps ( 1.30 & 1.15 yesterday - we're in a WW) and 12.5 hour nights

I think I'm just going to push the nap later gradually and cap it to end between 2 and 2.30. Let's see if that works out. On a side note, I've stopped logging our days. Not intentionally, just had so much happening. What a relief to just go with the flow

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Author Topic: Short nights (Read 3468 times)