7.5 MO Frequent NW and 5am wake - has EASY stopped working??

[jellyfur]

Hello and hopefully someone can help as I'm beyond exhausted at the moment   

I've been doing the BW EASY routine since my little girl was 8 weeks old. She's 7 1/2 months old now and until around 2 months ago was a great sleeper (slept through from 7:30pm - 7am) and was a fairly good napper (at least 1 hour each time).  Now we're getting at least 2 - 3 NW and a 5am wake up. Naps are also a challenge as she'll usually wake up 30 - 40 minutes in - sometimes I can get her back to sleep but most times she's just too awake and not up for it.

We do a 4 hour EASY. She used to wake at 7am and would feed every 4 hours with approx 2 - 2.5 hours of "A" time each cycle. I'd get 2 good 1 - 1.5 hour naps each day and sometimes she'd need a 20 minute catnap around 5am (but we phased this out at around 5 1/2 months). She goes to bed at 7/7:30pm.

Now the routine has gone to hell. She wakes at 5am and I spend an hour trying to get her back to sleep. In the end I usually have to give up and feed her around 6am. She's still taking around 2.5 hours of "A" time but naps are less than an hour which throws out the routine for the rest of the day as she's already been awake for over 1 1/2 hours before her next feed!!!

I've posted a few other topics looking for help over the last 2 months and have taken on board the advice, but nothing is working.  I'm at breaking point now and starting to stress out as I'll be going back to work soon. I know BW does not advocate any kind of CC but I'm seriously considering trying this as nothing else is working.

Some advice I received was to increase her "A" time from 2 hours to 2.5 hours - I've done that and it's made no difference. Likewise the dropping of the catnap - made no difference. It was also suggested that her Paci could be causing issues so we went cold turkey 3 weeks ago and chucked them out, she now doesn't get a paci - still no difference, in fact, naps are even more of a challenge since this.

I've tried PU/PD when she wakes but it only makes her more agitated (at one point I PU/PD almost 500 times!!). Ssssh/Pat works sometimes but is hit and miss. I've also tried wake to sleep as her NW were usually around the same time (give or take 1/2 hour) but this didn't work either.

Please, please, please - is there anything else I can try before I cave and try CC?

Thanks
Jen

[Kellyjs]

Sorry you haven't had any replies yet hun. Trust me, CC really won't help your situation whatsoever. We can help you find a better solution.

First off, your A times are far too short for a 7.5mo. 2-2.5hrs A is appropriate for a 5mo. Sorry if this is a bit blunt 

The EW is a classic sign of needing more A time first thing. We've had that here too. It's their way of stretching their A times themselves. I would also check for teething too as it can be that, but I'm definitely thinking the A times need to be sorted.

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

As you can see from this link I think we need to be nearer 3hrs A, and perhaps a bit more, but time will tell.

How about you increase all the A times by 15mins, hold for 3 days and then increase again? She may be a little grumpy around the time she usually goes to sleep, but something low-key or a change of scenery normally helps. Wdyt? Xx

[jellyfur]

Thanks for your response...that link has now been bookmarked! It's been so tough lately, feel like I have a completely different baby

I actually did some looking around other threads the last few days and noticed that most other 7/8 MO were on 3 hours A time so I've started increasing to that. We were already at 2.5 hours most mornings so for the last couple of days I've increased to 2 hours 45 but no real difference yet on nap duration, NW and EMW yet...it's still early days though so hopefully once we get up to a full 3 hours I'll see a change. Today was our first 3 hour morning A time.

Maybe a stupid question, but does this now mean she'll be on a 4.5 / 5 hour feeding schedule? e.g. if she's awake for 3 hours and napping for 1/5/2 hours? I usually give her a bottle every 4 hours with solids 30 - 45 minutes after each one.

Teething was definitely an issue a while back but I started giving her dream-meds and it seemed to help. She wakes up pretty much bang on the same time every night so I was beginning to wonder if this had become habitual? Also, she settles fairly easily in most instances so I figured if she was in pain or uncomfortable she would take longer to sooth?

I've taken her into bed with me (only once or twice) but I've noticed she seems to settle and sleep better in my bed. She seems to like to burrow into the pillows which for safety I don't have in her cot. I'm wondering if there are any baby safe ones I could get for her cot so she gets the same snuggly sensation?? Last night she slept in bed with me and didn't wake once!

Thanks again! x

[Kellyjs]

It does get a bit tricksy trying to fit everything in, especially with so,ids and bottles. I would try and feed as close to 4hrs as possible as you don't want her waking in the night from hunger. Sometimes it might mean a bottle before a nap, but as long as there's a little A between E and S, all is good. Even 5-10mins is ok. I remember having to do this with DD at this age.

Yep,I too would think that about the NW. Is she unhappy when she wakes? Or is she just shuffling around trying to SS?

Hmm I really wouldn't add anything to the cot at all hun, just because the SIDS guidelines say not to. I too like to be snugly myself (I sleep on a soft mattress topper that's like sleeping on a cloud  ), but unfortunately it's really not recommended for LO's. I didn't co-sleep as I'm an awful restless sleeper, so unfortunately I can't be much help there.

I'd hold that A time for a few days hun, just so she doesn't get OT with the sudden jump in A time. Also it gives us a chance to see what's working too.

Keep me updated ok? I've btdt with the A extension and there's not one thing I didn't try  xx

[jellyfur]

Thanks, I was beginning to worry about the feed that would have been missed if it was every 5 hours,  especially as she doesn't take a dreamfeed any more.  I'm a little confused though - if she's awake for 3 hours then sleeping I'd need to either feed her before the nap (so 15 minutes before which would only be 2 hours 45 mins since her last feed and there's no way she'd take another bottle that close)  or alternatively after her nap if only napping for an hour - if she naps longer then it would be more than 4 hours since last feed. Is there an example schedule anywhere I could check out? 

Sorry,  brain like moosh right now! 😔

When she wakes it's usually just stirring and some mantra crying , most often a wee hand on her chest or back and some ssshing for a couple of minutes will get her back off to sleep...if I leave her to SS though she wakes up fully and gets very upset .

I'm trying not to Co sleep with her but last night I set her travel cot up in our room and let her sleep there ...she still stirred a little but slept much better and for longer.

Yea I wasn't sure on the pillow thing but thought it might be ok as there seemed to be lots available on amazon and figured they wouldn't be allowed to sell them if they were dangerous...not going to take any chances though though!

I'll hold the A time for a few days as suggested and keepns
Keep you posted .

Xx

[Kellyjs]

I always err ont he side of caution with all these things for babies' cots. There's just so much about!

I'll be back in a mo with the sample routines for you x

chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months

[jellyfur]

Thanks for the sample routines, that's a great help!

I'm seeing an improvement on the early waking - she seems to be lasting until 6:30am now rather than 5am. Still lots of NW's though and I'm wondering if I've created a bad habit by going in to settle her when she starts crying? Whenever I've left her to see if she can resettle herself she gets really upset and it turns into a full blown cry-fest.

I've been reading my BW sleep book again to see if there's anything I can try but a lot of the techniques are for PU/PD or adaptations of this and PU/PD doesn't work for my LO. Any advice? Would you suggest I start leaving her a bit longer even if it leads from mantra crying to full on crying?

Thanks! x

[Kellyjs]

Hey sweetie, sorry for the late reply. I'm busy sorting DD's bday stuff for tomorrow. Excellent news about the,wu!

No, I'd settle her if she's crying hun. I too go that bit earlier when DD is fussing longer than usual. I don't think it creates a bad habit as such, especially if you know if you catch it earlier it stops it escalating.

Lots of NW's here are usually discomfort. Have you checked for teeth? X

[jellyfur]

Aww lovely, hope your LO had a great birthday!

Yea, teething was definitely an issue (we've got 4 through now) but she's waking up at the same time every night so I'm dubious that it's teething each time. When it's a teething wake up she want to bite my fingers so I can tell when it's teething related and when it's not...it's not been that lately

Seems like she's waking every 3 hours or so. She's not hungry so I have no idea why. I've tried 'wake to sleep' but hasn't made a different.

Things are actually getting worse. The 5am wake up has ceased which is great (now wakes at 6am/6:30am) but she's a nightmare to get down at bedtime (was never an issue before) and over the last few days her NW have been full blown wake-ups and not just stirring. Last night she woke at 1:30am and I couldn't get her back down until almost 4am!! Bedtimes are also now a challenge - she used to go down quite easily but now it's a battle with mega screaming fits. I caved tonight and gave her a dummy again as I'm utterly exhausted.

Really don't know what to do next. She's feeding plenty during the day and her A time is now at 3 hours - I'm getting 2 naps a day of 1.5 hours each (sometimes 2 hours for the morning nap) BUT she always wakes up 30 - 40 minutes into her nap and wont go back down unless I'm lying down next to her on my bed which I've been doing to get quality nap time.

I'm at a loss now. Feel like she's worse now than she was as a very little baby. x

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply again hun 

Has a prop been created anywhere that you can think of during this messy time?

It may be that she's actually ready for slightly less sleep during the day if BT battles are happening and you're getting cot parties during the night. Wdyt? Is BT the same now as it was when she was doing the 5am WU's? Would you mind posting the last few days in easy format for me to see including those NW's and let's see if there's a pattern.

There's a sleep regression around this time which coincides with a wonder week. I had an awful time with my DD at around this age, but it did get better. It also meant another push in A time was needed here. It will get better hun, ok? Just repeat the saying 'it's just a phase, it's just a phase' xx

[Kimberlina]

Hiya

Just come to add a little more support for you. My DS2 just turned 8mo, and we are in the EXACT SAME BOAT.

Kellyjs is exactly right about all of the above (of course!) and also about Wonder Week. Bear in mind that Separation Anxiety can also kick in around this time, just to make things EXTRA fun for all of us!

Have you read the Wonder Weeks? (http://www.thewonderweeks.com/) FASCINATING. Also a help when you think you've tried EVERYTHING and are worried that the way things are now are going to be how they are FOREVER. Really helps you see the light at the end of the tunnel.

(Just to make you feel better, we are co-sleeping EVERY night [in my arms, latched on ALL NIGHT], not weaned the swaddle, EMW at 5:30am, never sleeps through the dream feed... it's a total circus)

[jellyfur]

Thanks ladies, really appreciate your responses and support! 

Kellyjs - I can't think of any props that have been introduced lately other than the dummy which I only gave her back the other night (but I take it out as soon as she's fully asleep and she doesn't wake up). I guess I've been bringing her into bed with me more often now especially around 3am/4am when the NW got worse she wouldn't resettle. I thought maybe she just liked the scent of us (and also she likes to burrow into our pillows) so I've tried putting our pillows in her cot (while watching her) until she falls asleep then removing them but not really helping much.

I was also wondering if she needs less DT sleep but she seems so knackered by nap time - not sure how much I could push beyond 3 hours of A time at the moment without her having a full on meltdown.  Here's our schedule over the last few days, been pretty much the same give or take 1/2 hour depending if she wakes up at 06:30 or 07:00...

Wake: 07:00
E: 07:30 (bottle 6 oz) then breakfast 30 - 45 mins later (porridge or weetabix with fruit)
A: 07:00 - 10:00 - breakfast, play with toys, playgym etc, wash and dress
S: 10:00 - 11:30 / 12:00 - usually wakes up 30 minutes in and will only take full 1.5 hour nap if I then lie beside her in my bed.

E: 11:30 (bottle 5/6oz) then lunch around 1 hour later (depending on if we have a class or not, is so then she has lunch after class and before her next nap) - (sandwich and finger foods)
A: 11:30 - 14:30 - swimming or baby class (e.g. baby sensory, music class etc) or walk around the park
S: 14:30 - 16:00 / 16:30 - will usually be out and about so mostly often a nap in her pram

**NB if she's woken up at 06:30 and hasn't had two good naps, I usually let her catnap for 20 minutes around 16:30**

E: 16:00 (bottle 5/6oz) but seems to be getting ready to drop this feed now that she's eating more solids
A: 16:00 -17:30 - still usually out and about walking or playing with toys in the house
E: 17:30 - Dinner (meat and veg mash and fruit pudding)
Bath & Story: 18:00
E: 18:30/18:45 - Bedtime bottle (6oz)

Bedtime: 19:00 (Now taking me until 21:00 to get her to actually go to sleep!!)

NW #1 - 00:30 ish - will usually resettle quite quickly with some sssh/pat
NW #2 - 01:40 ish - will usually resettle quite quickly with some ssssh/pat
NW #3 - 03:30 / 04:00 - seems much more awake and is harder to resettle. Usually end up bringing her into bed with me or putting her in the travel cot next to me.

Wake: 06:30 again and the days starts over.

Kimberlina - Yes, I've got the WW app which is really useful. At one point though it was too depressing to look at when she was meant to be in a 'sunny' period but was in fact being a nightmare...then I could see the 'dark cloud' phase was looming! We're definitely going through a leap though - she's started trying to crawl and is babbling more. I really do hope this passes soon!

Any advice on our schedule and DT sleep / A times would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
xx

[Kellyjs]

Thanks for popping by Kim, always appreciated 

Ok, so we're still at 2.5hrs A mostly aren't we?

That needs to be increased hun, I'd just bite the bullet and increase the two A's before both naps for 15mims, hold for 3 days then increase by the same again. All in all she's having around a 1.5hr nap and a 2hr nap and you're expecting 12hrs ONS sleep. So, unless she's particularly high sleep needs I do think we need to cut it down a little. Wdyt? Has she shown signs that's she's HSN before?

Fwiw we hit the 2-1 at 8mo which is early, so my DD could do A times higher than the average, but still we were having the same NW's and BT issues for a while and it did coincide with a need for a big increase all of a sudden. Might be developmental or ww related, but  there does seem a need to push these A times a lot around now.

If we increase those A's like I suggested, we can compensate by reducing that second nap to 1.5hrs too, that'll keep BT to a reasonable hour. Otherwise, some do prefer a longer nap so they can have BT later? Totally up to you hun, we can play it by ear as we go. It's very usual to have 12.5-13hr days xx

[jellyfur]

Hi, thanks for getting back to me so quickly 

I thought that I was doing 3 hours A time? Oh, so confused?!

If she wakes at 7am, eats and 7:30am and is back down for her first nap at 10am isn't that 3 hours of A time as she's been awake since 7am? And in the afternoon if she wakes at 11:30am and goes back down at 2:30pm the same? Am I counting A time wrong? If I interrupt playing etc with feeding does that pause the A time?

I wouldn't say she's ever been HSN. When she was fresh out of the wrapper, she slept right through most nights and I'd need to wake her to feed her but not sure if that counts. Today was interesting, she took a 1.5 hour nap in the morning and a 1 hour nap in the afternoon - she was pretty shattered by 6:30pm and was out much quicker for her 7pm bedtime so maybe her DT naps were too long for her.  Will see how tonight goes with NW's.

Let me know how I should be calculating the A time so I can make sure I'm doing it right.

Thanks again. xx

[Kellyjs]

Oh silly me, please accept my apologies. I totally read that wrong 

You're doing it right, definitely. Ok then, maybe we still look at increasing the second A by 15mims and leaving the first and last A as is? You've got room in your day to lengthen it a little. Now you're not getting EW, I think the A times are close. We'll just see if we can lengthen that second nap a little.

Alternatively, if last night went well, we could keep yesterday's times? An hour nap is still considered restorative. How was the wu this morning?

Sorry again hun, I should've read your post properly. I think I read from the E  . You'd think I'd be able to read the easy format since I've been doing this over a year  what a numpty xx