10 month old twins won't nap!

[Swissmrs]

Hello Moms and Dads out there.  This is my first time posting although I read the forum quite regularly.  I guess I've reached a point of desperation with my 10 month old twin girls, who are fantastic and lovely to be around EXCEPT when it's time to take a nap.  They've even slept through the night without any problems since they were around 3 months old. 
I started them on the Baby Whisperer routine at 4 months because they wouldn't nap without being rocked or carried around or bounced and I stopped being able to do that on my own.  Everything worked fine except when it didn't work fine.  They almost always cried themselves to sleep, but at least it took less and less time for that to happen.  They never napped for more than 1.5 hours and even that was rare.  It was generally more like 1 hour at a time, 3 times a day. 
At about 7 months they had a fever and then a major growth spurt and our schedule got off and needed to change.  So, I began the transition from 3 to 2 naps, but it never went smoothly. I began taking them for more walks at nap time in order to be sure that they napped and to avoid all the crying.  I just could't take it anymore.  Now at 10 months they still have about 2 naps a day.  The morning nap is almost always in the stroller for about 1 hour or 1 hour 15 min.  The afternoon nap takes forever to settle them in their crib, sometimes 40 minutes, and then it lasts 1 hour or so IF I get them to sleep.  I know I should be doing PU/PD (or just PD at this age), but I don't have the strength anymore.
Our daily routine looks more or less like this:
6:30-7 - Wake-up, bottle
8:00 -    Breakfast solids
9:45/10 - 11:15 - Walking nap
11:30 - bottle
12:30/1 - Lunch solids
3:00- 4:30 - Nap attempt #2 (doesn't always work)
4:30 - bottle
5:30/6 - Dinner solids
7:30 - bottle
8:00 - bed (typically this goes very smoothly.  we lay them down awake and they go to sleep with no crying. Usually)

I would really appreciate some advice about these nap issues.  I don't know if I'm putting them down too early or too late or too much! 
Thank you so much in advance for any response.

[Kellyjs]

Hi and welcome to BW. 

I think that first nap is far too early hun. I'm surprised you haven't had EW! It also sounds like you're in the throes of the 2-1. Afternoon nap refusal is a key indicator.

I usually write much more on the first post, but would you mind having a read of these two links for me first so we can come up with a plan for you? Then you can ask questions based on what we will be working towards from the links x

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[Swissmrs]

Thank you so much for your response.  It feels good just to be heard!
I looked at the links and I'm not sure which path to follow. 
I am convinced that the girls only nap in the morning because I take them for a walk.
Should I try the #2 solution, pushing the morning nap back?
Then, would I skip the bottle feed before lunch? What time should I try to put them down for the afternoon?
As it is now, I try around 2:45 or 3 and they fall asleep, maybe, closer to 4.  Then, if they sleep an hour we have a bottle feed much to close to dinner time.
We have actually had some EW's in the past 2 weeks as well.
i am looking forward to your suggestions!
Thank youuuu!

[Kellyjs]

It's totally up you hun and how you feel they'll cope. We can try one way, then switch to another if it's not working.

What you could do is keep the morning walk nap if you wanted to but cap it at around 45 mins then try for a nap around 2pm ish? The problem with this is that it might take a while to find the right A time for a longer nap in the pm and end up with 2 short naps. This way might be less disruptive for them though?

An alternative is to push the first nap back as you said but put them in bed rather than walking. Ideally we want them to be sleeping their main nap in bed and they're CN out and about.

If you go for the second option, you'll provably have to push that first A by at least 30mins to try and get a good nap in?

I would be inclined to try the first option as they're used to going out for a morning walk nap. Wdyt? Still push that out a little so at least 10am, 45mins nap, then try for the main nap after lunch/bottle at 2pm. Or even 1.30pm if you feel they can't handle it? At least then hope for a reasonable nap of 1.5hrs or a little more, then BT will have to be moved earlier to around 7/7.30pm for the time being x

[Swissmrs]

Hmmm. Yes, I think I will try to stick with the morning walk/nap and then try for a longer afternoon nap.
Not only will we have to shift our BT, but also probably our lunch and dinner times have to be a little earlier. 
That should be ok. 
Now, as far as getting them to settle in bed for the nap...this is almost always difficult.  I don't know that my back can handle PU/PD at this point.  Even just leaning over to get them to lay back down after standing is taxing if I'm doing 2 at once.  Mostly I stay next to them and pat them or the mattress and shhhh or sing or reassure them that I'm there while they cry or fuss for 45 minutes or more.  It's not usually both.  One of the girls usually falls asleep at some point or seems to need less comforting and it's not always the same one.  Do you think I should just tough it out and do PD every time they stand to see if it helps or just continue what I'm doing and pay more attention to the A time in the hopes that it will work itself out?

[weaver]

Just jumping in to say - if they're standing up on their own, encourage them to get back down on their own by patting the mattress as you say.  it'll save your back too if you perhaps sit on the floor rather than lean into the cot. Is that do-able? I spent a lot of time sitting on the floor, patting backs, or with my hand on a back or whatever.

I think a routine tweak is definitely in order if they are fussing for 45 mins, and PU/PD should not be used if it's a routine issue

[Swissmrs]

I will try tweaking the routine and encouraging them to lay down on their own.
Thanks for the tip!

[Kellyjs]

How's it gone today hun? Anne is totally right as always. I'm sure once the routine is sorted, getting them to settle will be so much easier.

The idea will shortening the first nap is that they should be more tired for their afternoon nap and not give you as much hassle. It might need some more tweaking, but we'll get there ok? With your back intact  . Well, as much as it can be  x

[Swissmrs]

Well, today was kind of rough.
The girls, S & O, woke up early at 6:15, instead of at 7. 
I took them for a walk at 10 and they fell asleep at 10:15.  I woke them at 11. (maybe I should have adjusted the nap back to 9:15?)
Put them down for the afternoon nap at 2.  S fussed until 2:45 and, O did the same until 3!
They each only slept about 45 minutes.
They were cranky all day, but it is also really hot here right now, so that could be part of it.
I put them to bed at 7:30 instead of 8 because I figured they had already had a long day, but S
cried and fussed for a bit, which is unusual.  I can typically put them in bed at the end of the day, say a quick good night, I love you, and that's it.
Should I stick with the same plan tomorrow to see what happens?  I'm really not sure what to do, but I want to thank you again for all your help!

[Kellyjs]

I'm actually thinking that second A night need to be pushed a little more, wdyt? Did they wake up happy?

So as they were fussing for so long, how about we try the pm nap at 2.30pm? What does your mummy instinct tell you? Dyt they can go that bit longer?

I think we stick with this for a week, if it doesn't work we can look at plan B where we have them nap at home for the first nap and perhaps apop the CN in the buggy in the pm if that's doable with family life? At least we know they will sleep in there.

I've got DD's bday tomorrow so probably won't be around, but post and let me know how it goes and I'll get back to you on Sunday hun ok? We will get there, I promise    x

[babybarr]

Hi I've got twins too! I haven't read through everything but it def sounds like you'll be going to one nap soon! And prob sooner than you thought because there's two. Do you wake the sleeping one to keep them in sync? Are they identical cos that can have an impact.
I personally would either chop the morning nap right down or try pushing it to nearer 11am let them sleep then have a catnap say 3.30ish. I found it easier to persevere with an am nap so xe could get out in the afternoon rather than be confined to the house with TWO babies desperately trying to get them to nap. Hope that is of some help!

[Swissmrs]

Happy Birthday to your DD!  I hope you have a wonderful day!

All of us here are feeling a little fried from yesterday, but today is a new day and we will keep on trying.
The girls seem to be waking consistently at 6:15 now.  This is about 1 hour earlier than usual.  Today they chatted happily as they woke.
The first nap was at 9:45-10:30.  I woke them up.
The afternoon nap started out with some progress. I put them down at 1:45 and they fussed until 2:20.  Only about a half hour this time.
But then they woke up 40 minutes later screaming and then continued to scream for another 45 minutes.  They could not be consoled.
We put them to bed at 8 without any problems or complaints. 
That afternoon nap is so tricky!  Today I will try to push it further back.  They are typically happy after lunch and enjoy chasing each other around for a while, so I don't think it will be a problem.  They just get upset as soon as they know they are going to take a nap.

Have a great day and I look forward to hearing from you again soon!

[babybarr]

Did you read my post above?! Honestly I would try the moving the am nap much later so the pressure is off in the afternoons. My boys were awful nappers until one nap and if pushed would then nap like champs!

[Swissmrs]

Hi babybarr.  just read your post.  I don't usually wake them from naps at the same time.  Sometimes they do the work for me and wake each other up with their crying.  Otherwise, I let the other sleep.  The strange thing is that the one who sleeps more sometimes ends up being crankier!  No, they are not identical.
hmmm, you think I should try to push the morning nap instead without continuing the process I'm trying now for a bit longer?  I'm all for trying anything at this point as long as I'm not giving up on something too soon.  If I went with your suggestion, it would be best to put them down in their bed instead of doing the nap in the stroller, right?
Thank you for your help.  It is so nice to hear from another mother with twins!

[babybarr]

I mean it's completely up to you but I just found trying to Get that pm nap if they weren't settling was a nightmare and it was what worked for me. I would also wake the sleeping one if it wasn't at a stupid time to keep them in sync. Yes do a bed nap in am then the other could be on the go so less pressure yk?

[Kellyjs]

Laura has some wonderful advice there hun, she helped me through the 2-1 too! And she's done it with twins.

Because they're consistently waking earlier, yep, I'd push that am nap out now too. We have tried the other way round for a few days and they don't seem to be settling into it.

So dyt you're ready to try plan b, or would you rather stick with what we're doing for a few more days and see? X

[babybarr]

Hi Kelly

[Kellyjs]

Hiya Laura, thanks so much for jumping in here. It's always helpful! Especially with the twin issue too, you're a star  x

[babybarr]

Swissmrs how's it going?
Hope you're hanging in there. How many teeth do they have atm?

[Swissmrs]

Hi! 
I've been MIA this week since we went out of town and our nap/sleep/everything schedule has been trying to adjust to
1) a different apartment
2) their dad taking care of them all day as I attend school.
We are out of town for another 2 weeks and I don't know if it's the right moment to really keep tinkering with their schedule.
Their dad does his best and does a great job, but he is a little less vigilant about times than I am.  Plus, He can't really put them down in their beds during the day because, even though we have tried to darken the room as much as possible, it remains fairly bright.
The good news for today is that I was home with them to help and they napped for 45 minutes from 10-10:45. and then for 2 hours from 3-5 in the stroller!  They went to bed at 8:30 last night and woke up at 6:30.  They drink formula as a snack between meals and we are in the process of switching to number 3 instead of 2, which I'm hoping will eliminate some crankiness between meals.  And to answer you about their teeth, they have 2 on the bottom and 2 just came in on top 2 weeks ago.
So, maybe we'll keep trying this way?  They get pretty cranky in the morning before their nap.  I can't imagine pushing it back any further right now.  10 is already a stretch.
Thank you all for your advice!

[Kellyjs]

I'd keep going until it doesn't work anymore hun, then if that happens, we're always here to help!

That sounds like a great amount of sleep you got there, hope it continues for a while for you 

[babybarr]

Ditto to what Kelly said! Seems like pushing that nap back a bit has helped. If they spend the next yr or so taking their long nap in the buggy then so be it! They don't nap forever!

[Swissmrs]

Hello everyone!  Well, we are back home and for a week the naps we're going really well. It was like they were so grateful to be home and back on a more recognizable routine.
We went for a walk at 10, I woke them or they woke naturally after 45min, then the pm nap at 3 with only 15 min of fussing. They slept anywhere from 1.5 hours to 2hrs 15min. Of course, dinner was later and bedtime moves back to 8:30, but then they slept until 7:30 instead of 6:30!
However,
We missed some naps over the weekend and now everything is messed up again, at least for one twin. They started nearly refusing the am nap. They now fall asleep maybe around 10:45. And one twin just can't seem to get to sleep for the pm nap. The other fell asleep after 30 min of fussing. She also sleeps a bit later in the morning while the one who won't nap is starting to have EW's again. I don't have the heart to wake the sleeping baby because why mess with something that is kind of working for her?
I don't know. After a dream week I am kind of lost again.
Help!

[Kellyjs]

What a shame hun, it sucks when they do this doesn't it? It may be that we need to push that first nap out again. Do they sleep longer than 45 mins even when that first nap is later now?

It would be helpful if you could post the last few days for them both in easy format for me so I can see? It really helps.

So wu time for both twins
E
A
S inc what time you pd and how/if any fussing etc to when they actually fall asleep and for how long
Etc all the way to BT and any NW's.

Thanks xx

[Swissmrs]

Hi. Yes, it sucks. Just when you think everything is magically falling into place.
Well, here we go with the EASY schedule.
Yesterday:
WU: s/6:15, o/7:15
E: 7:30 bottle
    8 solids
A: s/4.5 hrs
   O/3.5 hrs
S: started walk at 10:15
     Both asleep around 10:45
     I woke them at 11:30 (45min)
E: 11:40 bottle
    1:00 solids
A: 4hrs 15 min before actual sleep. Since they've been sleeping longer in the afternoon I didn't want to put them down too late, so...
S: pd at 3
    Both asleep around 3:45-4:45 (1hr)
    They woke up very grumpy.
E: 5:00 bottle
    6:45 solids
    8:15 bedtime bottle
A: 3 hrs 45 min
S: 8:30 with some crying. I had to stay with them 15 min until they fell asleep. This happens very rarely.

Today:
WU: s/6:30, o/7:15
E: 7:30 bottle
    8 solids
A: s/3.5 hrs from wu
    o/3 hrs from wu
S: started walk at 10
    S/10:30 - 11:10 (40min)
    O/10:40- 11:15 (35min)
I woke them up
E: 11:15 bottle
     12:45 solids
A: 3.5 hrs more or less
S: pd at 2:50
    S/fussed for nearly 40min and then we gave up. She would lay down and be quiet and nearly asleep and then wake up crying again. OT?
    O/3:20 - 5:00 (1hr 40min) I woke her up, especially since S didn't sleep at all
E: S/4:00 bottle hoping it would get her to sleep. Didn't help.
    O/5 bottle
    6:30 solids
    8:00 bedtime bottle
A: s/9 hrs from last wu!
    O/3hrs
S: 8:15 fell asleep immediately

It seems there are not enough hours in the day to do everything! After they wake up from the pm nap it's like a mad dash until bedtime. Last week too. They would wake up from the pm nap after 5, so bottle, solids, bottle, bed were all tough to squeeze in.
I know I've got to rework this schedule I just feel at a loss at the moment. Tomorrow I may insist that o wakes up when s wakes up in the morning, just to start us off together.
Anyone have any thoughts?

[Kellyjs]

Ok, this does sound like classic 2-1 shenanigans. That second nap well might be UT for them both at 1hr especially as S has started refusing it. That's the exact thing with the 2-1. There's just not enough time to fit everything in to the day.

It would well be that S is OT. She is only getting 10hrs ONS, but if that was the case I would've thought she would've taken that nap albeit a short one.

So, if we keep your current morning ritual with a walk, you could look at waking them both at 30mims now instead of 45. Then try for the second nap slightly earlier at 2.30pm. I would hold this for at least a coupes of days and see if they settle into it. Wdyt? We may need to move that afternoon nap earlier again when we cap more off the morning nap, but I'd just like to see how this goes first ok?

I would also try and move BT slightly earlier if you can too? Perhaps try for asleep by 8pm?? Might even need to be a bit earlier as the second nap will probably end earlier than it did before xx

[babybarr]

Absolutely wake the sleeping one after say 15mins. The 2-1 is hard enough without having two on different schedules. Personally I would now try pushing the am nap back and fixing it say at 11.30 and then do a mini nap (on the go) in the afternoon. That way if one needs a bit extra they can get it early enough and short enough to allow for bedtime. You may find if they wake early you do a two nap day.

[Swissmrs]

Well, yesterday's EASY looked like this:
WU: 6:45 (didn't have to wake lil'o, they woke up together)
E: 7:15 bottle
    8:00 solids
A: 3.5 hrs
S: they were so cranky I took them out a little early
     9:50 - began the walk
   10:15 - S falls asleep until 10:45 (30min)
   10:25 - O falls asleep until 10:55 (30min)
Didn't need to wake them. They woke up on their own after 30 min.
E: 11:00 bottle
    12:30 solids
A: 4 hrs plus
S: pd at 2:30
    3:00 - both asleep until 4:00 (1 hr, maybe some barking dogs woke them up. They are such light sleepers during the day. Woke up crying a lot, thought there was a possibility to fall back asleep, but it didn't work)
E: 4:45 bottle
    6:15 solids
A: 4 hrs
S: pd 8:00
    S needed comforting for 10 minutes before falling asleep

I'm going to try the same thing today, so we'll see.
I'm reluctant to go for the 11:30 morning nap because last time I tried to put them in their crib in the morning they screamed bloody murder. Of course it was earlier, around 10. Maybe if I wait longer they won't put up such a fight.
They just learned how to climb onto the couch on their own, so now I'm very busy trying to teach them the "safe way" to get down! It's certainly never boring around here.
Thanks for listening.

[Kellyjs]

Feel for you hun, I remember that early climbing stage. Still puts my heart in my mouth even now watching them like they have no fear 

I would keep those A times for another day as you said and let me know how it goes? I did think they wouldn't fall asleep until 3pm. We might have to shave a little more off that morning nap soon as they can obviously handle long A times after a short nap xx

[Swissmrs]

So, I've been shortening the am nap to 30 minutes and the results have been up and down.
Sometimes the pm nap is 1 hour, sometimes 1 hr 45min.
The morning WU times have been all over the place. Sometimes it's 6:00, then 7:15, the other day S woke up at 5:40. I was able to get her back to sleep and then both girls woke up at 7. Today they woke at 6:15, but my husband settled them back down until 7:45!
What's going on?
It seems they need at least 4 hours of A time. When I put them down earlier it takes forever to get to sleep. When they wake at 6, the schedule all falls into place. We go for a walk at 10, they fall asleep at 10:15, etc. but when they wake at 7, the whole schedule gets pushed back and the pm nap gets really late and then it's hard to fit everything in before BT at 8.
What do I do now?
I'm feeling really confused.
Maybe today I'll skip the morning nap all together since the woke up so late. Or I'll take them for a walk if they start getting cranky just to see what happens. But do I continue to cap the nap time?
Should the pm nap eventually end up at about 2:00?
What is the final goal of the one nap a day plan?

[Kellyjs]

I would go for a one nap day today hun if you can. Push them to 4hrs 15mins if you can, perhaps even 4hrs 30 after that near 12-hr night sleep as they might be able to go longer? Put them down in their cot and let them sleep as long as possible. If nap is around 2hrs, aim for BT at 7.30, if shorter bring BT (asleep by) closer to 7.

This is where it all gets a bit tricksy during the transition hun. I used to have a rule that if DD woke before 6am, we'd do a 2 nap day, like you've been doing so far. Perhaps even shorten the first nap more to 15/20mins. When she woke late, I did a one nap day and EBT dependant on nap length. I didn't go too early as I knew mine would never do a 12-hr night, but it definitely looks like yours could do, so don't be afraid of it ok? If they wake earlier the next morning, just do your two nap day. Unfortunately it swings between the two for a little while until you can get them on one nap fully.

How does that sound? Xx

[Swissmrs]

This makes sense. Except, what do I do about lunchtime?
If they slept until 7:45, I would put them in bed around 12/12:15.
So, lunch comes whenever they wake up?
They usually eat around 12:30 or 1.
This ealso means they will have their bottle right before taking a nap.
I am really interested to see what happens today!
Thank you.

[Kellyjs]

How did it go hun? I would've done lunch earlier to keep them entertained  . Xx

[babybarr]

We do lunch at 11ish and then snack when they wake after nap.

[Swissmrs]

So, we've been attempting just 1 nap a day.
This has been our EASY for the past few days:
WU: S cries at 5/5:30, but we go in and get her back to sleep until 7:30
        O cries at about 6/6:15 and we get her back to sleep until 7:30.
E: 8:00 bottle
     8:45 solids
A: 4-4.5 hours
S:  11:30/12 for a few days they only slept an hour, yesterday it was 1.5 hours
E: yesterday they had a bottle before the nap, but other days it was either skipped or came after with solid lunch at 1 or 2 depending on when they woke up
A:
S: no pm nap (yesterday I took them for a walk at 5:30 but they did not sleep at all
E: 5:00 bottle
     6:30/6:45 solids
A: 7 hrs
S: 8:00 BT. I've had to stay in the room to soothe them ( more S than O)  for about 10 minutes. This is highly unusual for us! I have always put them down awake and left the room without any problems.  They also get really hyper before bed.
For some reason we can't seem to get them in bed earlier.
So, my question is really about why we have started having these EW's. Should I put more effort into getting into bed earlier? Like 7:00? The past couple nights S has cried out at 12:30/1 am and needs a little shushing back to sleep. This has never happened before. Should I go back to the 20/30 min am nap with a longer one in the pm?
By the way, O took her first few steps yesterday! And their first birthday is coming up! We've had a lot of house guests with more to come, so it has been pretty exciting around here.
What do you think our next step should be with the nap situation?

[Kellyjs]

I would say that's far too long of an A to BT hun. You'll also have a big developmental leap around 1yo which either causes them to sleep more or less for a week or two 

I would keep to a 12-hr day at absolute max on a1.5hr nap hun. Perhaps even 11.5hr. OT could have definitely started to kick in too.

Ok if the wu isn't too bad and they're going back to sleep, do you want to power through with the one nap or do an odd 2 nap day to keep the OT at bay?

Personally I would power through but my DD dealt with OT well, it seems like yours is too? I know it's a pain with the EW, but they are going back to sleep.

I would push out that first nap again. An hour could definitely be indicative of an UT nap. How about tryin for a nap closer to 4hrs 45mins? I would hold that for a week and bring BT much closer to 12hrs after wu.

So for example.

Wu 7,30
A 4hrs 45
S 12.15-1.45 (or more hopefully)
A 5 hrs 15mins
BT 7

If the nap is longer than 1.5hrs you may be able to push BT back a bit?

If you wanted to do the catch up nap, I would try a quick car nap or buggy nap at 11am for 15mims then do nap at 1.15 and hope for a 1.5hr nap which should get you close to your usual BT at 8pm. I would probably only do this the once for now though as it looks like they're starting to get used to the one nap routine, it just needs to be placed better in the day xx

[-Maya-]

I am not a twins mother but I have a bad napper so I hope my 2 cents can help you.
For us it was always easier to have a long morning nap than a long afternoon nap. With long morning nap there are less variables to keep in mind especially if the girls sleep well during night. Planning second nap of the day means to take into account how first nap went, then recalculate second A time according to first nap... Imho much easier with first one. Actually I was brave enough by shortening first nap only when there was no other option due to family life.

[babybarr]

I have to say I agree with Maya. We would have the prob they would short nap then refuse to nap later. I found it easier knowing they'd had a Good nap rather than risking two rubbish naps or one short one. Also if they'd had a short nap they'd often have a catnap in the car or buggy or I'd just do an early bedtime. Hth