Author Topic: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine  (Read 3386 times)

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Offline jessmum46

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2015, 10:54:50 am »
How have naps been?  But yes putting him to bed too early and expecting too long of a night from him could cause issues.  Has he ever done longer than an 11h night in terms of total sleep, not counting NWs?

You know we don't support CC, GPs just aren't often aware there are other more gentle and respectful ways to sleep train so just because a medic has suggested it I think it's important your DH doesn't see that as the only or 'best' way.  Trust your instinct on that x

Offline Gecko2014

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2015, 21:42:09 pm »
We are in agreement on the CC. LO is fairly sensitive so it will be the absolute last resort for us. And I have told DH that we aren't launching into just because someone he trusted recommended it - I want to him to read about it and then decide for himself if it really the way he wants to go. I suspect it won't be.

I have had 12h and 12.5 nights from LO but these have been rare. They followed really poor nap days and one of them was when we were on holiday and room-sharing (I'm not sure if that made any difference or not). 

I got 8hrs before the NW last night followed by a noisy self settle at 230 then a feed and self settle at 330. Considering the fortnight we have been having, that was awesome.

DS1 (Aug 2011); DS2 (Jun 2014)

Offline jessmum46

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2015, 10:53:50 am »
Glad you got a better night :)

You could show DH the CC/CIO links here if it would help, there are some good summaries of the evidence and also some personal stories.  I think we would all say here that it shouldn't even be the last resort, it should be 'no resort' yk?  If a more respectful sleep training method isn't working with absolute consistency, then there is probably something else going on ie wrong routine or illness/discomfort.  And CC will never fix either of those things.

Offline Gecko2014

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2015, 01:33:28 am »
I'm not sure I totally agree. I get where you are coming from but I think there is a fine line here between discouraging CC (in favour of the gentler options) and being judgmental about it. I'm not suggesting that you are doing the latter but it could easily come across that way if we start talking like this. I know plenty of families, who hold gentle parenting practises dear, but who have leant towards CC-type methods when sleep issues were impacting on the marriage, parent-child bond, ability to work and mental health needs of the family. I don't think it's fair to say that it isn't or shouldn't have been an option. I agree that decisions should be informed, by a number reputable sources, but at the end of the day, with the child's best interest at the core of the decision, only the family involved can decide what is on the table and what isn't. I wasn't going to comment but it seemed disingenuous for me to keep chatting and ignore it.

All this having been said, it's currently off the table for us. We seem to be returning to our status quo. Sleep has improved but we are back to being fairly erratic one day to the next. We are fairly set on the 1-nap routine and the 6:30 BT. What seems to vary is when I get the WU (an NW or an EW) and whether we get a resettle as to how the day unfolds. Nothing that that needs to change with any urgency but I would like to nudge it towards a more sustainable routine.
DS1 (Aug 2011); DS2 (Jun 2014)

Offline jessmum46

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2015, 11:31:57 am »
I apologise if my comments appeared judgemental, that was not my intention.  Of course every family must make the decision that is right for them.  However the core BW ethos (and this is a BW forum) does not support CC and that's what I was referring to when I said "we would all say HERE".  Tracy when she was with us asked us specifically not to debate this issue so I would ask we leave it here with the clear understanding that CC or similar methods are not compatible with the BW philosophy.  An individual family's decision is of course their own.

I'm glad things are generally improved for you x

Offline weaver

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2015, 19:31:18 pm »
Just to agree that Katherine is simply telling you the policy here at BW.  We do not support CC *at all*, *ever*.  Your GP might not be up to speed on the latest research.. have a look here...
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!

The main reason we don't support it that the heart of BW is listening to your baby and responding appropriately - not deciding to listen in 5 or 10 minutes time, which is what CC is.

We'll happily support and advise on BW methods though :)
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline Gecko2014

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2015, 01:55:52 am »
This is both where we agree and where I think the issue gets murky. I'm not going to debate whether its good or harmful or effective or whatever but I am going to share how I viewed some CC in the context of Tracy's recommendations. Used kindly, where you do listen and do respond to your baby, I don't think they are poles apart.

When I first read Tracy's books (with my first, grumpy baby), I had a hard time working out what was responding, what was rescuing and what was straight out interfering. He could fuss for a long time before going to sleep but it rarely escalated from fussing and if I went in during this time, he became much more unhappy than if I left him to it. Put simply, if he was allowed to fuss, he went to sleep much faster with much less crying, particularly distressed crying, than if I tried to shh-pat etc. *Sometimes* when he was fussing, I used a timer or clock to stop myself from going into him, to remind myself that he was okay settling himself in his own way and what felt like forever was actually only 3 minutes. I was listening but I was also checking myself with the clock and once I got to know that he would escalate a particular time before settling to sleep, I watched for this too. I think blindly leaving your LO and only going in when the time clicks to 5 minutes or whatever is quite different to waiting, watching and listening. I'm not convinced that this isn't compatible with the respect for our babies that Tracy imparts. This is exactly why I like this method, because it respects our babies, their personalities and their moods, as well as appreciating the reality that babies live in families where everyone else has needs as well (and thus, for example, baby cannot held to sleep all night every night).
DS1 (Aug 2011); DS2 (Jun 2014)

Offline jessmum46

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2015, 06:43:34 am »
In that case you have described it sounds like a mantra cry - What’s a mantra cry? and we and Tracy would entirely agree with you that a baby who is not distressed but rather fussing/mantra crying can of course be left to it :) Watching, waiting and listening is what Tracy would have advised too - S.L.O.W. down (and Appreciate your Baby's Language). The key being where cries escalate to more than a fuss/mantra and become a distressed or 'I need you' cry, that is responded to immediately regardless of the clock.  That is entirely different from what is meant by CC where the clock, not baby would determine your response and cries would be ignored up until the designated time limit, whatever the type of cry.  What you described in your post above is entirely compatible with BW :)

Offline Gecko2014

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2015, 04:44:11 am »
I'm glad about that. If it was in fact a mantra, it could go on for a while. My understanding of mantra, from the book, was that it was more brief and usually at the end of the settling period right before sleep. Either way, this is how my DS1 liked to go to sleep and going in because I wanted to help him only mad him cross. This is where I lent on Tracey's work to respect him and listen to his needs, not mine. Now at almost 4, he likes to have me lay with him before sleep so, its all swings and round-a-bouts.

The significant experience for me in the context of CC however, was when my sister in law visited and, observing me allowing him to fuss as I described, told me that what I was doing was, in fact CC. I was horrified and assured her that it was not. Then I thought about it some more and wondered if we are splitting hairs a bit. Some parents are happy to let their LOs cry or fuss a bit while going to sleep, some are not happy with any crying. And I'm guess that most parents who are, even if they use a CC method, will go in if their child is distressed. Even if the strict technique says 10mins, most of us would only sit out the time if it was a fuss or tired cry, rather than a call for help. The CIO method I understand is a bit different in this regard and I also understand that you can do CC while staying in the room (in a chair or with your back to cots etc) and providing verbal reassurance. With some many variations around, I am wary to say that all CC or all versions are problematic. If we were to listen to our GP and use the CC times as a guide, it would always be vetoed by distressed cry. That, for me, is a no-brainer.
DS1 (Aug 2011); DS2 (Jun 2014)

Offline jessmum46

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2015, 05:23:43 am »
I think we are on the same page with always attending to a distressed cry :)

Offline Gecko2014

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2015, 02:12:52 am »
Getting back to our current issue my LO is sick again after about 7 days well. We are back to going with the flow until he is well but I did get to make some observations in the meantime. Our days go one of 3 ways:
1. We wakes up between 4 and 5am, feeds and goes back to sleep until 6-7am, we then do one nap around 11:30/12 and bed at 6:30
2. He wakes after 5 and despite having a feed and going back to bed doesn't usually resettle. If I'm out in the car or pram he will pass out around 900/930 for anything between 15 and 60 minutes and then go down for his nap in bed around 3 hours later. BT is based on when he woke up from the nap and how much nap time he got through out the day but is always between 6 and 7pm
3. He wakes early as per (2) but doesn't CN early in the day, can't make it until 11:30 for a 1 nap day and has an early nap around 1030 or thereabouts. I can't get a second nap in the afternoon and we can end up with a really long afternoon stretch if the nap wasn't a long one.This can also happen if he wakes closer to 6am than 7am as per (1).

I have tried anchoring the nap time to 11:30, regardless of wake time but this doesn't seem to help with getting consistency or with getting a good nap each day. Even with a similar wake time and similar nap time, he will oscillate between a good 2hr nap and 1h15 or less. There doesn't seem to be any relationship with how the night goes either. Some days a bad night will increases the change of a 2h nap but generally the normal fluctuations are just as likely.

There isn't a pattern between 1, 2 and 3. It's not although a late to bed night leads to an early wake or bad nap days. They seem to rotate at random.

So my questions is this: Is it worth continuing to try and tweak the routine until we get a nice rhythm that works for him and wards off OT most of the time, or is it time to accept that my LO likes to go with the flow and bit more? I understand that if we go with the flow we will have more accidental naps in the car and pram and less consistently in bed and we could have OT bedtimes more often. Doing that to him doesn't seem fair but nor does making him conform to a routine just because I would like one.

What are your thoughts?



DS1 (Aug 2011); DS2 (Jun 2014)

Offline jessmum46

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2015, 16:57:40 pm »
It sounds a lot like where we've been to be honest, still an inevitable side effect of the 2-1.  Things are settling here but we still get the odd rubbish nap or random catnap, but much better than where we were a month or two ago.  I'd be tempted to keep your 11.30/12 nap whatever really, if he really really can't make it then let him have even 5 mins around 10.30 to get him through.  A nap that early in the day you just can't let him sleep on if afternoon nap is a no-go, you'd be better to deliberately cap it very short and try for a second 'proper' nap a bit later at a time that will get you to a reasonable BT. 

That said, if go with the flow suits both of you right now that's fine too, there isn't a right or wrong here :)

Offline Gecko2014

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2015, 03:54:18 am »
So... maybe we just need to ride it out until the 2->1 transition shakes down?

Going with the flow doesn't really suit me but I'm getting a bit exasperated trying to make a routine work when I feel so much resistance to it. I was just considering letting him snooze whenever for a while, so I'm not trying so hard. If that outcome is going to be rubbish naps either way, the effort doesn't really seem worth it.

I'm particularly frazzled today. We are over the worst of the current illness but have had 2h NWs for the last 2 nights. Last night he was up from around 3 until 5, just wanting to play. He was going bananas when we left the room after giving the sleep cues and stopping instantly when we went back, flapping, giggling etc. He then slept until 8am but I still put him down at 12. He had a 30 minute nap and I'm fairly sure that will be it for the day now. He will almost certainly be OT by bedtime.
DS1 (Aug 2011); DS2 (Jun 2014)

Offline jessmum46

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2015, 11:14:58 am »
Go for an early BT, if you keep the day to a short length say 11.5h or so it should be ok x

Offline Gecko2014

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Re: LSN baby seems to resist predictable routine
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2015, 01:35:37 am »
I did a 6pm BT and he slept for 11.5hrs without a sound. Amazing for him (not so great for us because DS1 was up sick).
DS1 (Aug 2011); DS2 (Jun 2014)