Changes in sleep times at night - 3.5 months baby

[shira1206]

Hello,
I am not sure if this is a food or sleep question - sorry if this is the wrong forum.

my little one is 3.5 months old.
we haven't always had a good routine but for several weeks we do and it was going good. up until about 2 weeks ago she was on a 3 - 3.5 hour schedule with her food (120 ml) and sleeping OK (more or less) during naps though a lot of help was required to get back to sleep when she woke up after 45 minutes.
During night she would sleep until around 3-4 AM and then eat and wake up at around 6:45 AM and so on.
2 weeks ago she started crying after food so i raised the amount to 150 ml and she started a 4 hour routine between feeds.
her naps are better, and she needs less help with getting back to sleep though it seems she does sleep much more during the day (2.5 3 hour naps at times).

couple of days ago i felt she was getting restless. she started waking up around 2 AM to feed and then at 5 AM again in the morning. i try to give her pacifier to help her fall back asleep but it doesn't last long.
she also had some nap issues one day and 2 days after she slept so much... i even started to worry. she has been eating her fingers frantically the last couple days which i know is OK but that's something i felt was different recently.

tonight she woke up at 1:15 AM to eat then slept until 5:00 AM. i couldn't help her sleep more so i gave her food and she fell asleep in middle (ate half) which never happened before.
after putting her to bed she woke up at 6:15 AM again and finally i took her out of bed around 6:45 (she takes time to wake and plays a bit in bed).
she only ate at 7:30 and didn't finish all (she ate 120 ml)

I will be very honest - i feel bad for not understanding whats going on with her - that i don't understand why she isn't calm as before.
also maybe she sleeps too much during day?
after her morning food she never stays awake more than an hour - and i tried everything. she cries and wants to sleep.
then she wakes after 2 hours - which means 1 hour before her next feed - so shes up 1 hour then eats, then plays 30 minutes and gets tired again - so the day cycle is like E, A, S, A, E, A, S, A etc...

I want to help her if needed - maybe this is perfectly OK, and don't want to do anything that will be a bad habit. I am just not 100% if i am doing anything wrong.
I know everyone always tell me 'mother knows best' and 'do what you feel' - but to be honest, it's hard, I don't always know what to do, and it makes me feel bad that maybe i am not doing the best for my baby.

thank you.

[newkidontheblock]

Hi honey:) I've felt the same way as you so much times in the first year. It is hard knowing how to handle different situations and wondering whether we have done the right thing. That's why I love this forum and all the support & guidance I have received here. I'm glad you have found this place too

Regarding your worries --- firstly, everything is constantly changing with these Los. Just when you think you've gotten into a good routine, things change. You have to roll with the punches, hun, and don't over think it. If she is waking but will settle after a feed, great. Keep going with that. If she eats less at her morning bottle, it's possible because she is full from her night feeds. You could try giving her the bottle a bit later - maybe in the middle of the A time? Have you tried introducing a dream feed? That helped eliminate our NWs completely. And a fixed WU time in the morning. As soon as I regularly started waking DD at 7 am, she stopped waking for her 5 am feed Honestly at that age, if DD woke to eat, I would feed her. It is quicker and easier, and they do need the calories.

What I feel is happening with your DD is that nap 1 is too early, and is more of a continuation of night sleep. I know you said she gets cranky and fussy and wants to sleep in an hour but you will have to actively keep her up and push that time out to 1.5 at least. Go for a walk in the fresh air - great way to stretch A times without over stimulating or over tiring.

Besides all this, could you post your routine for a few days? Maybe a few tweaks are needed there

[shira1206]

thanks so much for your answer 

our routine last couple of days:
WU -  at 6:45-7
A  - in bed - she wakes slowly and looks around plays with a small bed toy
E  - 7:30
A - about an hour depends how tired she is (she did get up before she ate so i can see it is more than an hour of A time looking at this routine - but only in last couple days)
S - 8:30 (2-3 hours with help getting back to sleep after 45 min)
WU - 11
A - 30 min
E - 11:30
A - until 12:45
S - 12:45 until around 15:00 sometimes 15:15 with help falling back asleep after 45 min)
E - 15:30 and if she doesn't seem very hungry maybe even 15:45
A - 1 hour
S - 16:45 (around 30-40 min)
A - from 17:30 until 19:00 - 19:15
bath time around 19:00 - 19:15
E - 19:30 - 19:45
Bed time around 19:45 - 20:00

Night time
starts tossing her head from side to side around 1:00 AM then i help her continue sleep
Again at 2:00 AM
E - 3:00 - 3:30 AM
S - 15-20 after she starts feeding
around 5:00 AM she tosses her head again and i help her sleep - sometimes again at 6:00 sometimes wakes around 7:00

regarding DF - i was considering it but to be very honest it scares me a bit - what if:
- she wakes during DF?
- what about the diaper? she pees a lot so it needs changing
- what if it ruins her sleep time from from 19:30 until around 3:00? this really bothers me.
- what if she eats and wakes at 3:00 again?
- what if she won't eat?
i have so many questions i am unsure of - never tried it, can we start at this age?

thank you so much

[newkidontheblock]

WU -  at 6:45-7
A  - in bed - she wakes slowly and looks around plays with a small bed toy
E  - 7:30
A - about an hour depends how tired she is (she did get up before she ate so i can see it is more than an hour of A time looking at this routine - but only in last couple days)
S - 8:30 (2-3 hours with help getting back to sleep after 45 min)
WU - 11

This is what I meant, hun. She seems to be catching up on her night sleep over here. I would suggest pushing it to 1.5 hours A and capping the nap at 2 hours max. It might be a case of too much day sleep over all.

Your routine seems fairly normal otherwise, including the NFs. Don't be scared of doing a DF. It is amazing. Even if she does WU,she will fall asleep while eating. If possible, you could ask your DH to do it with a bottle of expressed milk (not sure if you are are nursing or is she on formula - either way you could make it his task. That's what I did.)

- what about the diaper? she pees a lot so it needs changing

Is it completely soaked through? I followed Tracy's advice and stopped changing DD in the night ( it was never too wet and never poo) I slathered on the diaper rash cream and she was fine till morning. In fact, we only had one diaper rash in the entire first year, and that was because of a tummy upset with cheese (grrr)

- what if it ruins her sleep time from from 19:30 until around 3:00? this really bothers me.

I don't understand this. Could you explain? She is anyway able to make it to 3am till she needs a feed. The DF sort of tanks her up for the night, so she won't be hungry when she wakes and soon will sleep longer. And a fixed WU time in the morning might help with the second feed.

- what if she eats and wakes at 3:00 again?

She might. Or she might wake later than 3 because she would get hungry later, and slowly you phase it out.

- what if she won't eat?

Then you keep trying and she'll eat eventually. I had to ask DH for some of your answers and he says not to worry at all. DD refused it the first few times but once they got into a rhythm everything was fine. He would put on a tiny light, prop DD against a pillow, stroke her lip with the bottle nipple and she would eat. When it went slack in her mouth, he removed it, placed her back in her crib, turned off the light & left the room.

can we start at this age?

yes

"How do I implement/drop the dreamfeed?"

Goodluck:)

[shira1206]

thank you!
I am working on the morning A time to make it longer, today we went for a walk after she was awake about an hour (like you suggested) and it gave us 20 more minutes of A time (too bad it's so hot outside now even in those morning hours).

I will speak with my husband about DF - he is usually awake. I am nervous but if we won't try we won't ever know how it goes right!? will update on this.

what i meant when i wrote "- what if it ruins her sleep time from from 19:30 until around 3:00? this really bothers me." - i mean that she usually sleeps from BT till around this hour (unless something changes some nights) so i was afraid DF will mess up her sleep hours.
she can sleep between 6-8 hours from BT to night feed usually, and then 3-4 hours until morning. can't this mess times up and she will think she did the 6-8 hours and she needs to wake in 3-4 hours again? like she will think the DF is actually her NF? hope i am more clearer now.

you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?
and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry.

again, thank you so much for your support in this

[newkidontheblock]

Sorry for not replying, hun. I'm ill. How are things going?

[shira1206]

really sorry to hear you are ill and hope you fell better soon. sending you some good energy.
we didnt start the DF because my little one is with pavlik harness and she has 1.5 more weeks to go - she's currently in 'rehab' from it (after 2 months of 23 hours a day with it) so we put it on only at night and then when she wakes to eat around 3:00 AM i take it off. she needs to be 8 hours with it and i rather she be with it during the night.
once we are done with it (hopefully) i will try DF.

when you feel better and if you have time, i would really like to know what you say about my questions:
"you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?
and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry." - only if you have time ofc

besides that, our daily sleeps are getting worse to be honest
at night she wakes at after midnight and i pat her to sleep, then again after 1AM and finally to eat around 2:30-3:30, then again at 5AM then at 6...
she doesn't open her eyes, just tosses her head from side to side really hard and tosses her arms and legs.
also our daily naps got worse. it's getting hard for her to fall asleep on her own and it wasn't like this. especially the afternoon short nap.
and she wakes after 30 minutes now , not 45 (i have another thread here on that Will baby learn to go back to sleep on her own after 40min nap? (3.5 month baby))
and it's getting hard helping her fall back asleep.

I am so exhausted and sooo confused.
I don't know what to do more or different.

thanks,
Shira

[newkidontheblock]

"you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?

At that age, I wouldn't worry too much. If you find that she settles back to sleep easily after a feed, voila. If not, then it wasn't for food:)

and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry."

Feed her again. Then wake her up at the WU time you want - say 7am-- and feed again. You want her to understand that you will be waking her soon and she will get a feed, so that she stops waking at 5 for it. That's what happened with DD.

Sweetie, if she is 4 months now, then there is a sleep regression at that time. Do you know about the wonder weeks? The week 19 leap is also awful! I had a horrible time when DD was 4 months old. It is a terrible time for sleep and overall temperament. Just get through this and it gets SO much better
short naps at 3-4 months? Take it easy, it will get better!

{hugs} hon!

[shira1206]

thank you newkidontheblock - you made me smile and feel a bit more relaxed.
i will post here to update on how things go.

hope you are doing better!
Shira

[deb]

Only just back from a long weekend away; will try to catch up tomorrow. 

[shira1206]

Hi Ladies,
today was a really bad day - because of me.
i started thinking last couple of days all the things going on - not being able to sleep past 40 min, waking up couple times at night - it's all related to my little ones paci.
so i thought i would try settling her back to her nap after she woke 30 minutes into it without the paci - bad idea on my part.
i guess i haven't thought it through and she started crying at some point of me patting her, so i picked her up to comfort her and when she relaxed i put her back but it just got worse and worse. she was screaming her lungs out for over 30 min when i broke and tried giving her the paci, which at this point she didn't want. i couldn't calm her down in anyway, so i gave up on nap time and just walked with her in the house and still it took her some time to stop crying. from there the entire day went upside down. after this she was happy and played and then she ate at her regular hour - and i saw she was extremely sleepy so a bit after that i put her to bed, with the paci. she didn't fall asleep calmly as usual and woke 30 minutes later - and i couldn't get her back to sleep.
from there even a walk outside became very hard, and when i saw she was exhausted i wanted to put her for another nap - she started screaming so immediately gave up.
i gave her her last bottle 30 minutes before time so she could go to bed a bit earlier - and we never had bed time so hard like today. she screamed her lungs out, took me 30 minutes until she fell asleep (no paci this time - she didn't want it) - i think she was just so exhausted otherwise she would keep crying.

i am not even 100% sure it's the paci... maybe, it is, maybe it isn't...

i myself couldn't stop crying from that noon nap it was because of me she cried all day, and is tired and i felt like i traumatized her from going to bed - she never screamed like that when we put her - on the contrary, she took her paci and fell asleep in minutes on her own.
i hope i didn't ruin all her sleeps from now on
she is an amazing little baby - shes so happy, smiley and calm - and i made her become something completely different today - poor baby, probably didn't know why mom was doing this to her.
damn, i am crying while writing this.

i am unsure what to do now, i just needed to share - i was alone with her all day and it was so hard.
i will pick myself up tomorrow, it's another day.

[deb]

Deep breaths. We tried probably a dozen times to get DD2 to give it up and in the end she kept it till she was 2-1/2YO. DD1 wasn't weaned till 7 months. But hey - you  don't always know until you try.  Now you know - probably not now unless you REALLY want to spend some intensive time working on it (it's in the No=Cry Sleep Solution, BTW, getting baby weaned from paci peacefully).

So fake your way thru the rest of today, and tomorrow is a new day,

"you say she may wake again at 3:00 and want to eat - how can i tell if shes hungry or if she is used to wake at this hour?

At that age, I wouldn't worry too much. If you find that she settles back to sleep easily after a feed, voila. If not, then it wasn't for food:)

and what happens if she wakes at 5:00 am for example? i will feed her and then put her back to sleep until 7:00 AM. then what should I do? she ate 2 hours ago so when should i feed her again? i don't want to give her food if she isn't hungry."

Feed her again. Then wake her up at the WU time you want - say 7am-- and feed again. You want her to understand that you will be waking her soon and she will get a feed, so that she stops waking at 5 for it. That's what happened with DD.

Actually, any chance of sending in DH for those MOTN feeds? It's less likely that she'd associate him with a feed. That's in part how we ended up getting J off those very early morning wakings/feeds.

[newkidontheblock]

{hugs} hun. I'm so sorry for the bad day. It is so hard when you are alone handling this. I remember so many teary days in the first year. Just put it behind you. Today is a new day and you can both start fresh. Weaning the paci is not a very easy task. We never gave DD one, so no BTDT experience but if you feel that this is something you want to do, you could read through these success stories
Paci or Swaddle Weaning Success Stories Here

Oh, and absolutely think about getting DH to do NFs. My DD took AGES to nurse, so we always did NFs with expressed milk in a bottle. Eventually, this became DH's task. Even the DF was his responsibility. I really feel this help in a big way to stop her waking up

[shira1206]

thank you both for the encouragement.
i will update once we start DF and see how it goes.
about getting DH to do the NF's - i don't breastfeed so my little one always gets a bottle. my husband feeds her her last bottle before bed during the week and during weekend it's a mix of the 2 of us.
will it still matter if he takes on the NF's in our case?

and we did have a better day after

[newkidontheblock]

Glad to hear it:)

And if DH is up for it, definitely see if he will take on NFs:)