"Playing" in the night

[CattyPads]

This may be a stupid question as there isn't a big problem as such, but here it goes...
My DS (24mo) has a toy sheep since he was born that plays relaxing music to go to sleep. He has always been a great sleeper and I have assumed he was sleeping through the night,he usually goes down for 12 hours.
But he has now figured out how to turn the sheep on and off, and I have been hearing the sheep in the middle of the night through the baby monitor, also very early in the morning, and also when I put him down at night I hear the sheep play on and on for up to an hour! (He remains quiet and doesn't call us).
Was he always having awake spells and I just didn't know about it cause both him and the sheep were quiet, or is it the excitement of playing with the sheep what keeps him up/wakes him up?
My DH wants to confiscate the sheep  but I am not sure as he loves it!
Thanks for reading my loooong sheep story!

[Truly Blessed]

Hello Honey,

First off I think it is super when a LO has any kind of 'lovey' that gives them comfort and that taking it away would be a shame  . The question I would be asking first and foremost is whether or not you think he is 'sleep deprived'  If his mood is good and he doesn't appear to be over tired then I wouldn't worry about it. All children wake up several time a night, it's just that they go back over independently and quickly as a rule, so we tend not to know. Can I ask, does he still nap at this point  If so, then it may be that his sleep needs at night are shortening, but because he has his sheep he is happy to lie with it quietly until he is ready to drift off. If he didn't have the sheep then you could possibly be facing 'settling' issues at bed time which you don't currently have.

I hop this is of some help.

((HUGS))

Vicki.x.

[CattyPads]

Thank you Vicky 

In answer to your questions, he doesnt seem tiredto me, he has been playing up quite a bit but i just had a baby so I guess its more to do with that, coupled with some terrible twos problems like running away etc.
He still naps, about two hours every afternoon.
I also think he' d probably get very upset without his sheep, i just worried that was what's keeping him up, for example this morning i heard it play for nearly an hour but then he went back to sleep for another whole hour!!

[Truly Blessed]

In answer to your questions, he doesnt seem tiredto me, he has been playing up quite a bit but i just had a baby so I guess its more to do with that, coupled with some terrible twos problems like running away etc.

I agree, that all seems perfectly normal developmental stuff Hun, and of course as you say the current circumstances may be relevant, but not necessarily so as I think we have a tendency to look for reasons, when it is actually just down to age.

I do think you have options. If he is average sleep needs, then it could be that expecting 14 hours sleep out of him is optimistic. Although a high sleep needs LO could still sleep 14 hours this age, my DS who is ASN was averaging 13 hours at this age, his routine was something like this:

WU 7 am
Nap 1 to 2.30
BT 7.30

So if  you cut his nap back by 15 minutes at a time over a week or so and his nights become more settled, then it would be conclusive. Alternatively you could bring his BT later, but if you're anything like me then that is an option I would prefer to delay as long as possible, depending on how much you need your time with you new LO and your 'me time/couple time' 

WRT to him resettling in the morning, again I suspect it is down to his fabulous woolly friend  and that without him he would likely have been up for the day.

Thoughts 

ETA: I should also ask what is his current routine, as it may be his nap needs moving  .

x.

[CattyPads]

Hi

I am not sure if he has high sleep needs, he has always slept quite a lot with no problems (lucky me  ) I guess he takes after me lol.
Here's his routine, don't be shocked wrt the lateness, the country we live in everything happens later (but this will need serious tweaking when he starts nursery in sept as he will start at 9am so will have to be up by 8am).
10 WU
4 pm - nap for 2 hours
10 pm - BT  (sometimes he takes up to half an hour to fall sleep but stays in his cot).

I have wondered if his nap was too long, but if I wake him up he wakes up sooooooo grumpy! Whereas if he wakes up when he is ready he is fine.

Also, in case it's important, when I hear him awake in his cot he is usually happy to be there and doesn't call us, he does sometimes but usually not).

So what do you think?
And thanks again, I appreciate your help.

[Truly Blessed]

Here's his routine, don't be shocked wrt the lateness, the country we live in everything happens later

Are you in the Med somewhere Honey

I have wondered if his nap was too long, but if I wake him up he wakes up sooooooo grumpy! Whereas if he wakes up when he is ready he is fine.

Sadly this is often the case, but some people go with it and just use distraction as a tool to bring them round ie: favourite TV programme/snack at the ready. If he would go down earlier, you may be able to bring his nap forward, and as the A time is shorter he may naturally wake earlier. I did this successfully for a while.

Also, in case it's important, when I hear him awake in his cot he is usually happy to be there and doesn't call us, he does sometimes but usually not).

Well yes it is important Hun. I mean if it were me I would leave things alone until it becomes a real problem ie: He refuses to go down for his nap, or does start calling you. The reason why I am offering possible alternative solutions is because I know the 'family dynamic' is often also at play ie: You don't want to end up in a situation where you may be a logger head's with DH about whether he gets to keep his sheep YK 

x.

[CattyPads]

Haha yes good guess  my uk friends also put their children to bed at around 7pm and are shocked by my routine  but everyone here is out in the street with the children until 8ish pm and it's completely normal. We can change it in sept and enjoy the summer for now!

As for DH don't worry about him  he was just guessing it was the right thing to do, but I am the softer one of the two and I didn't wanna upset DS and convinced him not,to confiscate it!

So now we figured out the sheep is not to blame (that's right, right?  ) he can keep it right? I mean, he was waking up before he figured out how to make it work, is that right? I was just wondering if the sheep is prolonging the awake time.
If you think I need to tweak his nap or BT please do let me know! I am happy to give it a go! X

[Truly Blessed]

Haha yes good guess   my uk friends also put their children to bed at around 7pm and are shocked by my routine   but everyone here is out in the street with the children until 8ish pm and it's completely normal. We can change it in sept and enjoy the summer for now!

I worked abroad for 20 years, and almost lived in Mallorca I love and miss the med life Honey. It all makes sense to me including those fabulous siesta's lol.

As for DH don't worry about him   he was just guessing it was the right thing to do, but I am the softer one of the two and I didn't wanna upset DS and convinced him not,to confiscate it!

That's good news

So now we figured out the sheep is not to blame (that's right, right?   ) he can keep it right?

Only my opinion, but if you are happier for him to keep his long nap, it is my best guess that the sheep is a friend right now and not a foe

I was just wondering if the sheep is prolonging the awake time.

I don't think so, I suspect the sheep is keeping him happy to lie there quietly and without it he may be shouting for you and unhappy to be in bed.

If you think I need to tweak his nap or BT please do let me know! I am happy to give it a go! X

Not as long as you are happy now that the 'status quo' is acceptable. But if you change your mind I will be here to help and hold your hand.

x.

[CattyPads]

Thanks for your reply

Well the only thing that I am wondering is if I am expecting too much S. Last night I put him to bed at 10ish and he took about half an hour or drop off - sometimes he cries when he can get the right tune on the sheep so I have to go in and sort it out  and then today he was awake at 9,15ish, again cried for me to sort out the right tune (he is a picky one  ) and then he gave up at 9:45 and asked to get up.
So my point is, how many hours would you say he needs at night, and for the nap? He usually sleeps two hours at nap time, so I wonder that's why he takes half to one hour to go to sleep at night.

Thanks for helping, it's very nice of you

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun, it does sound like he needs his nap cutting back then, and if he is now averaging 11 hours at night if you take away WU and messing about time, with the 2 hour nap I'd say he is average sleep needs. Having said that if you decide to cut back the nap then you need to decide if he has later BT and an earlier WU or vice versa. My best guess is that the first of the 2 would work best as if that is do-able then it would be the start of changing up the routine for him to start nursery. My guess with you being in the med is that he will have a set nap/siesta time with all the children, so do you know if that will be at the same time as he now has it at home 

If you decide to start shortening the nap then if he will do it, I would try shaving off 15 minutes at a time and stick with it for at least 7 to 10 days to see if it's enough and you get results. PD at the same time, then you get that extra 15 mins to BT too, which may also help him go over quicker.

What do you think 

x.

[CattyPads]

Hi

I've been thinking, trying to figure things out.
I have very bad memory so I am not sure where/when things "went wrong" (I am aware I can't complain as I have a good sleeper, but I can't help but wonder why things have changed and if he is getting enough sleep, I have also wondered if he is high needs or average).

As I said I have been putting him down at 10, and he used to wake up somewhere between 10 and 11am) so he was getting about 12 hrs sleep, plus the 2 hr nap. But since the sheep "incident" he has been taking longer to fall asleep and for about a week or so he has been waking at 9am, so his usual 12 hours are now suddenly closer to 10. The nap is still fine.

My routine is sometimes a bit rubbish as when it's sunny sometimes we stay out in the pool longer, so somedays he naps at 4pm, some at 4:30/4;45,,,, could my inconsistency be what ruins things?
Also,sometimes I wonder if he plays up as maybe he's tired? Or cause of the new baby? Or the terrible twos? Lol the possibilities are endless. Hence me wanting to make sure sleep is under control.
I also wonder if thr baby's screams wake him, the new baby sleeps with us but DS is just down the hallway.

I am sorry to go on, I wanna make sure I am doing the right thing before attempting any changes. Thanks AGAIN!!

Edit: just wanted to add, we have been having NW for the last three nights too now, usually just have to go in, put sheep on, little cuddle and he settles straight away, but we hardly ever had NWs!

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Honey,

My routine is sometimes a bit rubbish as when it's sunny sometimes we stay out in the pool longer, so somedays he naps at 4pm, some at 4:30/4;45,,,, could my inconsistency be what ruins things?

Sorry to say this, but yes this could be relevant, as if he naps too late, it could be causing BY resistance and NW  . However I would expect it to be worse on these days.

I also wonder if thr baby's screams wake him, the new baby sleeps with us but DS is just down the hallway.

You could try using white noise to rule this out.

My gut feeling is that the nap needs cutting back. LO's don't always wake early or refuse naps when it needs cutting, sometimes it is the nights that are effected.

If it were me (IIWM) I would start cutting it back 15 mins at a time over the course of a week or so and see where you're at.

x.

[CattyPads]

Thanks, I am gonna do that and report back to you! 
So I will stick with same length nap every day, 1hr 45mins!

[Truly Blessed]

Good Luck Sweetie 

x.

[CattyPads]

Thanks  I am just so annoyed with myself for ruining a perfectly good routine  I am glad we chatted cause I can now see it wasn't the sheep to blame  and where I am going wrong!

[Truly Blessed]

Thanks   I am just so annoyed with myself for ruining a perfectly good routine 

It's only a perfectly good routine if it is still working Honey, so you're not ruining it. On the sleep front things change so very often, so really it has been fortuitous that the last routine worked for so long. Don't beat yourself up. Take it from me it hurts

x.

[CattyPads]

Hi again

I need help please! Things have gone progressively wrong and now my routine is a mess!

Every night he now takes about an hour to go to sleep, so he falls asleep about 11pm  and then wakes around 8:30/9am. Before things went wrong about 3ish weeks ago he was sleeping 10pm till 10-11am. He still naps ok, around 1hr 45mins, and falls asleep straight away.

I think capping his nap is not enough to fix this mess  and I don't know where to begin!

Thanks x

Oops only just saw your latest reply, didnt see we were on page two x
Oh and, it got ruined (I think!) when we started napping later cause we were out at the pool or the beach etc, but not sure?

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Sweetie,
 
Sorry I'm late on this, it's just a busy time. I've just seen it and I'm off out to a concert now. I've got family coming to stay in the morning, but I will try and get onto this tonight, and in the meantime I'll give it some thought. It can take some time for a new routine to kick in, so hang in there, but also just to say maybe there is some development going on, and to have a think about any leaps he is making at the moment.

((HUGS)) Vicki.x.

[CattyPads]

Thanks vicky, whenever you can is more than great 

I know it's not a tragic situation, but as he is missing out on about 2ish hours per night I worry. I see him yawning a bit during the day too.

Developmental...speech maybe? He is starting to put two/three words together at the moment...wouLd that count? I can't think of anything else?

Honestly take your time to reply, you are being so kind as it is xx

[Truly Blessed]

Hello Lovely,

Developmental...speech maybe? He is starting to put two/three words together at the moment...wouLd that count? I can't think of anything else?

Hard as it is to believe this ^ can affect sleep, so it may be relevant. These developmental leaps often cause extra tiredness but affect the ability to sleep as the brain finds it difficult to switch off . If you think back there may be other times you can identify this to be true, like around the time he started to form sounds/walk etc.

I wonder if it may be a better move to try leaving his nap at 2 hours and lengthen his day :/. So it would look like this:

WU 10 am

Nap 1 til 2

BT 11 pm

I don't know if 11 pm BT could work for you as a family or not  My thinking is this: If the speech development IS relevant and he is extra tired because of it then cutting the nap now may be bad timing. However lengthening his day may mean that he falls asleep straight away at BT (as he isn't going over until then anyway.) It's a punt, but may work. The thing is, you need to find out how he needs his sleep spread. Some LO's do better keeping the long nap and shortening the night, and some need a lot of night sleep and do fine on a shorter nap, but only trial and error help you find the answer. Of course sometimes you have to force one or the other depending on work/nursery/school etc, and it is out of your hands  .

The alternative would be to keep the nap shorter for now and try lengthening his day anyway. It really is trial and error unfortunately, and best to try something for a week or so before drawing conclusions, although I know how hard that can be.

Let me know your thoughts Hun.x.

[CattyPads]

Thanks vicky,

Well he is currently waking up between 8:30/9, not 10 (not sure if you meant that or if it's a proposed routine). And yes 11 would be too late...specially considering when he starts nursery I'd like him to be in bed by 9 the latest.
This is why I am sooo annoyed, he was fine going down at 9:30ish, would fall asleep straight away then speed til 10 or sometimes even 11 the next day.

To clarify,and sorry if I repeat myself, can me pushing the nap back cause we are out be causing this mess? I mean, it's gotta be that or the developmental thing. Or not. Who knows. 
It would be such a shame if we can't do the usual plan that clashes with his nap as he enjoys it so much, but he needs his sleep 
Sorry for my ramblings.

[Truly Blessed]

To clarify,and sorry if I repeat myself, can me pushing the nap back cause we are out be causing this mess?

Sorry Honey, I thought you meant you did this on the odd occasion. Did you mean you pushed the nap back every day to later recently  TBH even if you did he should be more than able to handle a 6 hour A time as his age.x.

[CattyPads]

No sorry, if I am home I put him down at the usual time (15:45/4pm) but if i am out then i put him down later. So I haven't been regular with the routine. Then again is WU is a lot earlier nowadays.

Things are getting even worse, over an hour to go to sleep and waking as early as 8am now. 

Surely it's not the sheep, as at nap time he goes down in seconds and there is no sheep games? (My husband was on about the sheep again). I have been cutting the nap by 15mins for a few days but no results yet, maybe I am being impatient. He looks tired to me, he starts yawning at 11/12ish in the morning, after all he is used to 12hrs sleep but is more like 9 now.

Sorry to go on, I am just worried.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Honey,

if I am home I put him down at the usual time (15:45/4pm) but if i am out then i put him down later. So I haven't been regular with the routine.

If he is sensitive to routine change then yes, it may be that the inconsistency put a spanner in the works. But this seems like more than that to me. I suspect development is at play somewhere, but what do you think about bringing his nap earlier just for a short time and keeping it at 1 hr 45, if this is achievable  As his nights are short at the moment, he should take an earlier nap and it would be more restorative the earlier it is. Then hopefully he would settle sooner at BT. I've done this before during regression.

Thoughts  and ((HUGS)) x.

[CattyPads]

Vicky thank you for putting up with my many questions, I swear since we started chatting things have got worse and worse hence my trillion questions.

Well I have reached breaking point, last night he took one and a half hours to fall asleep, then had 4 NW, then woke up early, and today he had several tantrums out of pure exhaustion. He has never ever slept this bad!

I like your idea of the earlier nap. Can you suggest a routine please? This is how it was before it all went wrong
WU 9:30/10:30
S 3:30-5:30
BT 9:30

Now we have something like
WU 8-8:30 ish
S 16:00-18:00
BT 9:45 but he sleeps at 11/11:15

I am willing to do whatever it takes to get back on track ie cancel outings or whatever.

Ideally I'd love to get back to the 9ish to 9/9:30ish 12 hr day but I am open to any suggestions. Thanks xx

[Truly Blessed]

Vicky thank you for putting up with my many questions, I swear since we started chatting things have got worse and worse hence my trillion questions.

That's what we're here for Honey! I'll just do my best to answer them 

Can I ask how he is when he wakes in the night, and when is awake for that long at BT, is he upset 

Can you rule out pain  is he okay in the day. It's just sometimes you can miss things like ear infection for eg, because were always focused on it being a sleep issue, just thought it was worth mentioning.

Ideally I'd love to get back to the 9ish to 9/9:30ish 12 hr day but I am open to any suggestions. Thanks xx

A 12 hour day may be too much to ask if he deals better with a longer nap Hun  sorry.

Maybe try this:

WU 8.30

Nap 1.30 to 3.30

BT 9.00/9.30 (depending on mood and how tired he seems)

I suggest this routine in order for him to catch up on the OT as a temporary measure, as I don't think it will stick for the duration, but once he is all caught up we can look at it again, if this works for a while, I think it's worth a try.

If it's developmental, it may be that he goes back to something similar to before when it has passed, or that cutting the nap and lengthening the day will work at a later date.

If he seems ready for the nap even sooner, I think it would be worth a shot. Just adjust the times I posted, according to what time he wakes.

Good luck Sweetie.x.

[CattyPads]

Hey

Thanks again,
When he takes ages to sleep he doesn't complain APART from when the sheep stops singing (sigh) the sheep sings for 20mins or so, so he screams, I go in, I turn the sheep on, give him a kiss or a cuddle and he is happy as larry again. So, as it takes him about an hour to sleep I go in an average of three times.

If we have a NW it's a case of going in, sheep cuddle and he sleeps again straight away.

I've been doing an earlier nap for the last three days, about an hour earlier, no results yet. Maybe I need to do it even earlier.

I have never ever had any problems this bad with his sleep not even teething, on holidays or anything, so I guess I can rule out developmental? I dunno x

[Truly Blessed]

I have never ever had any problems this bad with his sleep not even teething, on holidays or anything, so I guess I can rule out developmental? I dunno x

((HUGS)) Hun, maybe, but the longer you parent the more you realise how much development can throw sleep into chaos. I'd stick with the earlier nap for a few days.

Did you rule out pain?

Vicki.x.

[CattyPads]

Yes pan is ruled out 

Ok I will see how it goes for a few days and keep you posted!

[CattyPads]

Me Again 

OMG now he is doing it an nap time (when put down earlier) - when sheep runs out he calls, only once though, then he goes to sleep. Today he woke after one hour  asking for the sheep again. I was gonna ask if he is OT or UT, surely OT  as at 1:30pm he was yawning with a seven mile stare (last night he slept 11pm-8am    which is dreadful for him). I put him down at 15:20 today.

I am starting to despair, my DH and DS nurse who I saw today both said chill out and it'll be ok, but I am freaking out 

Ps. I've been meaning to mention, he knows how to switch the sheep on himself, as we hear the sheep in the night sometimes, so why does he call for us to switch it on only sometimes, any ideas?
And
Ps2 my DH heard the sheep at 6:30am....surely he is exhausted

[Haribo2012]

Hi, it sounds a bit developmental to me, we had lots of messing at this age and nothing really solved it just time.

I guess the sheep is his way of self soothing so that's good but a pain for u. Have u tried taking it away for naps just to see what happens and replacing it with a favourite toy?

We did have to do a few naps in the buggy at this age as DS started refusing naps but it did pass.

It's easier said than done to chill out but he may pick up your anxiety over it....most things do get better and he might be grumpy with less sleep but you can only offer the opportunity for sleep as they get older.

[CattyPads]

Thanks for your input haribo 

You know, I am driving myself crazy trying different combinations of nap times, nap durations, bed times and so on, and nothing at all seems to make any difference. I am starting to think that only time can fix this, and yes I bet my anxiety doesn't help. I am quite the control freak  and I can't control this huh!

My DH suggested recording the sheep tune and playing it for an hour or so, so he can't get all anxious when it stops?

He hasn't got any favourite toys, just a scraggly old towel he cuddles to sleep  Lol!

I am guessing this whole drama is because of ds2 who is 7 weeks old. What do you think? Maybe that coupled with his speech coming along maybe.

Should I just give up?

[Haribo2012]

I drove myself potty with worrying about sleep when I think back but that's us mums just worry and I like things pretty routine which not all LO like to stick too lol.

You could try recording it, cant hurt to have a go. I'd say new LO and speech definitely in the mix...sheep is his way of getting a little more attention maybe (not saying he's lacking any)

Don't give up Hun things will come right. If he re settles on his own with the sheep I'd prob just leave him too it, he will loose interest at some point x

[CattyPads]

Well what do you know, I gave up trying different combinations out of sheer desperation two days ago, when I said "should I give up", and he slept 11pm until 9:30 am! So even though it was a late BT he slept 10 and a half hours! And last night again! 

So I am slowly gonna bring BT earlier and hope to get back on track!

Thank you so so much for your help. Might be back regarding earlier BT lol!

[Haribo2012]

Fantastic new I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Sounds like a good plan, maybe just try 15 mins and hold for 2-3 days x

[Truly Blessed]

Great update Honey Off on  my hols today, hope things are still looking up when I'm back.x.