EWs - aaaaahhhhh!

[murphy76]

HI,

We finally managed to get our 8mth old DS3, who has been on EASY from 3mths, STTN for the most part, but now 5/530am is his awake time for the day and it is waking his two older brothers and means long days for me and DH!

Here are sample EASY for the last two days:

TUES:

AWAKE: 530am

E 530 bottle, solids at 630am
A 540-815
S 830-1020 (1h50mins)
E 11 solids bottle at 1130
A 1020-1.10
S 1.10-2.15 (1hr 5mins)
A 2.15-3pm
E 3 bottle
A 315-5.15
E 5.15 solids
A 530-6 Bath, windo down etc
E 6pm bottle
S 6.10pm  (NW inc bottle 1245-1.20 then back to sleep to 5am)
 

Wed:

AWAKE 5am

E 5.10am Bottle 6am solids
A 5.15 -8am
S 8-845 (in car seat as had to go out)
A 845-10
E 10 bottle
A 10-1045
S 1045-1130 (in car return journey)
E 12 solids
A 1230-2.20
S 2.20- 340
A 340-430
E 430 bottle
A 440-515
E 515 solids
A 530-645 bath and wind down etc
E 700 bottle
S 7.15- 5am (sttn)

at 8mths he is roughly 3hrs A time between sleeps and when he is in the house sleeps for 3hrs total in naps, usually 1hr 45mins in the morning and 1hr 15mins in the afternoon.

We would love him to have 12 hr days but just cant put him down for the night at 5/530pm surely! the last A time is stretched to 3.5hrs+ and he looks like he can handle it.

Any thoughts/advice would be welcome, DS2 has learnt how to climb out of his cot recently and as soon as he hears DS3 anytime after 5am thats him for the day, so it is all happening and once and feels quite overwhelming sometimes!

Thanks in advance,

AM

[Kellyjs]

Poor you hun, EW really is the pits. Btdt!

Ok, how do you feel about extending that first A a bit. You mentioned he can do longer A's? Technically it's not an emw as he is getting 11hrs ONS, so I'm thinking perhaps a shift on your day might help you all out, wdyt?

I'm more in favour of extending the first A rather than the last as there's more chance of an EW if a LO is OT before BT. I think that's what may have happened on Wednesday?

So if we extend the first A by 15mins, hold for a few days, then reassess? I would keep to a 13-hr day max if you can. I think it might be a little unlikely to have 12hr days with two good naps in at this age, but some do it. We'll just have to see what suits your LO best. Has he ever done 12hrs ONS? Or was he doing it before and that's why it's thrown you for a loop? Have the naps increased lately or has he been on this routine for a while?

Sorry for the questions hun, just trying to figure out if he needs more or less sleep atm xx

[murphy76]

Hi Kelly,

Thanks so much for your reply. I'll certainly try extending that first A time and holding it, makes sense.

When not teething (or new surroundings like at the minute as we are away for 4 days with my DHs family and he was up for 1hr15mins at 12 last night, neither a bottle or medecine would get him over) he tends to sleep for 10/11 through, and if he does wake a bottle with a small amount of formula to water ratio gets him over, so we have ruled out hunger.

The naps haven't increased lately, he's been in that for a wile and has always been a great napper, which means at least there has been an opportunity to catch up a bit during the day. I'd always been told good daytime sleep fosters good nighttime sleep but this just hasn't translated for DS3?

Yesterday he was tired in the morning when I tried extending the first A time and I ended up just putting him down after 3hrs again, but I guess he'll always look tired like this until we start extending it and he gets used to it so I'll just persevere and even if it means a shorter first nap, hopefully he'll adjust in a few days and we'll see the effect it has.

Any further thoughts welcome and in the meantime we'll try your suggestions..

Thanks again,

AM

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply hun. It's been rather hectic here. How's things atm?

It's really difficult to judge when they're not in their usual surroundings. Extra stimulation can tire them out to the point of being OT.

Normally, yes sleep begets sleep in that good DT sleep helps a at sleep. However, I'm wondering if he's having a little too much DT sleep and that's having a knock on effect to how well or how long he can sleep overnight yk? LO's tend to change things up around 8mo and there's a large range do sleep needs that are considered normal. My DD at 8mo was sleeping 1.5hr nap and a 45mims one at this age  . She is on the lower end of the sleep needs scale though.

Have a go with extending the first A and see what happens. That'll definitely help with the EW I think xx

[murphy76]

I'm thinking it's not the best time to judge as you say, yesterday was fairly close to an ideal day as we would like, inc an extended A time first up, but there were two NWs over 1hr each last night and it could be the different surroundings, sleeping in a travel cot and some teething, so perhaps just best to pop any new regime or judgement on hold for 2 days then...

I'll have a think about the daytime too, I'd been aiming for roughly 2h45- 3hrs daytime sleep so will look at this too, lots to consider when we are back.

I'll let you know how we get on mid week, thanks for all the advice so far!

[Kellyjs]

My pleasure hun, just go with the flow until you're home and we'll take another crack at it xx

[murphy76]

Hi,

Yesterday was the last day of the holiday, day before he did a 10.5 hr night, 630pm-5am then yesterday as we were travelling he had 3hrs daytime sleep (1hr45min in the cot then 45 mins in the car followed by 30 mins in the car.) this meant a 10hr night, 650pm to 450 am this morning but we are back home so now can give things a proper go!

I'll try and extend that A time first up to 315-330hrs, I think I'm still worried that because of the early start that will only get us to6pm at best, or else mean over 2.5hrs daytime sleep or a long A time before bed, or even all of them,  it feels like a real vicious circle at the minute! How should his day look now, what Is the thing we most want to avoid, long A before bed, 3hrs+ daytime sleep or 14hr day? Would a catnap a day like today help to get us to a reasonable bedtime?

I know we are in a trial and error situation so I'll just give it a go, I know there is not set rule it was just in case there was some of this I should definitely try to avoid in your opinion...

Thanks again, it feels a lot easier tackling this with your pointers.

[Kellyjs]

I probably wouldn't offer a CN at this age hun, it'll probably only make matters worse.

Problem is, if he does wake at 5am, a 6pm BT is a 13-hr day. I would think we could help this stabilise and get used to the new routine, then we can look at moving the whole day out to get to a reasonable BT and wu. So, my point is a 6pm BT won't be forever hun, it will be just for the time being whilst those A's are being extended. I'm sure in a couple of weeks or so, we'll be able to work the timings better for you x

[murphy76]

Hi,

Fair enough, we'll aim for as close to 13 hr day as possible then for the foreseeable future.

Yesterday his EASY was

450 wake up

E 5 am
A 5-810
S 815- 950 ( woke him so as not to get too much daytime sleep)
E 1030 bottle 1130 solids
A 950- 1.05
S 1.05 - 2.20 (again woke him, he wasn't happy!)
E 330 bottle 5pm solids
A 220 - 615
S 615 - 1030 (NW for 1 hr, over with a bottle)
S 1130-440 ( gave him a quick bottle to try and extend him)
S 440-630
Awake 630

So yes it was a disjointed night, I'm putting this down to the very long A time before bed.. The nighttime bottles are only occasional and very watered down so as not to get him in a bad habit.
At least now we are starting from 630 so can at least have a crack at a reasonable day. I'll try to stick to 2hr 45mins daytime sleep, definitely no catnap, and give this a go for a few days to see where we are.

Fingers crossed!

[Kellyjs]

We all do what we can to get them to a decent wu hun, don't be too worried about it. This way you can have a good crack at your day and hopefully get to a decent BT.

Yep, I'd put that down to the very long A to BT too. Good luck for today, hopefully with this reset you can get to at least a 7pm BT with reasonable naps x

[murphy76]

Me again Kjs,

we have certainly had a better time of it, for the most part getting 11hrs out of him at night, but we are still to shift BT from 6 or 630pm but now the pattern has been established of a longer sleep we are starting to do it.

But.....

He has just started playgroup so all bets are off for a while, and i remember with DS1 and DS2 the same, although we are structured with his naps, they are less so (yesterday he refused point blank for them on his first full day!) so that meant an early start today as he had less daytime sleep yesterday than he needed. But i know this is just a phase, and once he is established in playgroup, hopefully he will go back to the 11 hour nights and we can start to push BT to 7pm and all will be right with the world!

My question is this, he seems to be waking 5am since going to playgroup, if he has not napped by the time i get him at 4pm, or at best napped early in the morning and not at all in the afternoon, in order for him not to be completely past it by the time bedtime comes at 6pm ish, can he get a quick 30mins in the car on the way home, which would be his second nap of the day rather than a catnap? and after this, even if there has been an A time in between naps of 4-5hrs earlier in the day, would i still leave it 3hrs after waking him from this catch up sleep before bed? or stick to the 13hr day and put him down at 6pm, even if this only means an A time before bed of 1.5-2hrs?

Again i know there is no right answer but just wnat to at least start off in the right direction, its trying to avoid undertired going to bed due to a short A time, even though not much daytime sleep, VS going past a 13 hr day without this reduced daytime sleep.

Thanks as ever for any thoughts!

[murphy76]

For example today he slept 820 - 950 and 1255 - 1340, so 2h 15mins in total.

I pick him up at 4/430pm from playgroup, earliest he will be in bed is 545pm which will be a 4hr A time just before bed, not desireable but rather this than a catnap i would imagine?

Thanks!

[Kellyjs]

Hmm it really does depend on the LO hun. You may find some days he'll need that CN especially of he keeps refusing the naps. I would still try and keep to a 13-hr day on that instance as it'll only be a short CN and he probably won't last that long anyway given he should be shattered anyway.

Having said that, 4hrs A could be doable before BT for some. Mine was on over 4hrs A for the first A of the day and some can handle the other way round.

I think you'll have to try and gauge it by his mood hun? You could try an EBT for a couple of days, then revert to a CN if you feel he needs it just to get him through. I'd probably not try and stick with the CN route, but just offer here and there. Tbh, that's not a bad amount of sleep today considering. Just a little long A to BT as you said. We can just try and see!

So day care don't have set naps you said? I'm wondering if they're trying for a nap a tiny bit too early in the morning, it might help trying to push that out if they are willing to help discourage the EW. If the naps were better spaced throughout the day, I honestly think it'll work better for you xx

[murphy76]

Hi KJS,

Thanks for this, and definitely what we'll try when the day permits.

Day before yesterday I put him down at 545pm and he slept to 415am, which is 10.5hrs so I can't really have any complaints. He took a bottle and went over again until 6am, which we thought was great and a reasonable time to start the day.

However in daycare yesterday he slept 910-955 and then 1240 - 115. Both times were too early him going down, and coupled with the new surroundings cumulated in the short naps.

In itself not the end of the world, however it did mean that on picking him up at 430 we had a seriously overtired little man on our hands and it was a 4hr 30 A time before bed at 545pm.

This resulted in a 1hr NW 11-12 then WU at 430am, tried lots of milk and he eventually went over at 5, not before throwing up in his cot but I just held him in my bed as thought better to try and get him this extra sleep!

You have to laugh, although I think the humour will only last so long if this continues...

Bottom line, we will try to impress on daycare the need to have at least 3hrs and preferably 3h15-30 in between his naps to at least allow us to stretch his day. He is only in 3 days a week, Tue to Thu, so Friday to Monday we can work on getting him caught up and hopefully the cumulated over tiredness will be addressed, albeit most likely in time to get more of it in daycare!

Thanks as ever for the advice

[Kellyjs]

I feel for you hun, there's a definite UT/OT loop going on there. I really hope daycare are accommodating for you xx

[murphy76]

Thanks. Yeah, tricky to address until things settle down in daycare, in the meantime we will just tinker and try to survive.

Same thing happened with DS1, so at least i know it ends well!

[Kellyjs]

Bless you, you are so calm about it all.  let me know if I can help with anything, I hope it gets better soon xx