Author Topic: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?  (Read 10194 times)

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Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2015, 00:31:55 am »
The problem is long NW so closed to wu, so maybe extend A gradually not jump? if night became better, extending A much.
I think if the first nap is not longer enough , still have chance let second longer, and second A could be longer than 3.5hr since we noticed he could handle at least 3.5h after a 30mins nap,right?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2015, 07:30:36 am »
Yeah, though the idea with the long am/short pm routine is that the shorter nap is UT, so you're not letting OT build up.  I reckon you could aim for something like :

WU: 7
A: 4hr 30
S: Uncapped, resettle if less than 1hr 30
S: 3.30ish (set time, AP if you need to - if he doesn't take it for whatever reason just skip and do EBT) - 30 mins
BT: 7.45 if 2 naps, 7.15 if one nap.

And yes, I'd push that morning A gently. If we had long NWs close to WU  I  pretty much ended up ignoring them cos they were caused by him being UT overall, so J could cope with being pushed a bit.  If he looked really tired I'd put him down 15 minutes early, that's all.



Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2015, 06:39:13 am »
Thanks, Martii also gave me suggestion about Long/am in details, just don't know what's wrong I did it, long NW closed to wu was still here, I never got 1.5h on moring, mostly 1h 15min, with long nw, WU always changed much, so it's difficult to keep consistent.

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2015, 08:38:12 am »
You might just have needed a tweak here or there. He's older now too  - babies change so quickly - I reckon it's worth another go :)



Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2015, 22:57:01 pm »
quick question, how many day sleep  you suggest if he woke early like 5:30? should I limit day sleep or more sleep needed to reach a reasonable BT without OT?
8.8:
wu :5:00~5:15 (not sure, last night BT 18:30 for only two 35mins naps ), light on at 6:00
nap1:9:4010:55 woke himself
nap2:14:55~15:40 woke himself
BT19:00
stirted at 3:30 about 15mins, then stirred at 4:30 ,woke maybe 5:00? he was quiet, light on 6:15
8.9
wu5:00 maybe light sleep maybe no sleep, no cry
nap1:10:00~11:30
nap2: 15:20~16:05
BT:19:00
short cry at 20:00,21:30, stirred at 4:10 around 10~15mins maybe, short cry at 5:20, woke at 5:30.
so it's a sttn night, but short as 10.5h, a OT night? because short cry at 20:00, 21:30 , I need resettled him for 21:30 cry.
yesterday his total day sleep was 2h15min, since it was a really long day, it is not too much, right?and I hope Bt still 19:00, would total day sleep time effect wu of next day ? what do yo suggest to deal with following day with such an early wu? I have to made a huge moring A because I  am not sure when he woke and what should I do if he woke so early, he was unhappy from his naps , but played well then.

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2015, 21:01:18 pm »
yesterday :
wu:5:30, I am not sure if he slept after 5:30 ,light on 6:30
nap1:10:30~12:00
nap2:15:20~16:00
BT:19:00
no ew cry, but woke at 3:40 again,till now still are woke, it's 4:30 now. I had thought there was some sleep after 5:30. but if not, so with high first A, the NW looks like OT?
he is nearly 11.5month, NW seems will never end up, when nap was not long enough, we had NW, if nap was long ,still NW,what's wrong?.
should I do a catch up day? let him sleep as he want, is too much sleep effect night too?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2015, 08:26:10 am »
I still think the nws are more likely to be UT, but you are there and can see his mood, do you think he's still OT? I don't think your A times are too long for a 11.5 month old - if anything the second nap length after a shorter A and decent nap is UT, which probably means he's also UT at BT after only 3hrs A - but you could move his morning nap earlier by 20 minutes and add 20 minutes A before bed if you think he needs to catch up.

Are you aiming for a long am routine at the moment? Cos if so, and reducing A times doesn't help  (therefore he's not OT), then I think you need to start capping the shorter nap to 30 minutes max, and maybe even increase his last A. If you want to try that I can suggest a routine for you, with variations if he EWs?

In terms of amounts of day sleep it really depends on the LO. My daughter was sleeping around 2hrs in the day at this age, but my son was only sleeping 1hr 20 and his night sleep didn't improve til it reduced to 45-60 minutes in the day at 13 months. My friend's little girl needed about 3hrs at this age. It really varies as babies get older. If your LO is sleeping 12 - 12.5hrs in 24 (going by the last two days), if you want 11hrs at night then anything over 1.5hrs will rob from the night most likely.  However, in the middle of the 2-1 it's sometimes impossible to get more sleep at night and the only way through it is to push on to one nap by capping one nap until it's short enough to switch to only one nap and an earlier BT. Keeping day sleep down to a reasonable level will help, but really it's very hard to change the short nights until the LO is through the 2-1 transition.

What do you think? Is he OT still? If not, do you want me to suggest a long am nap routine to get you through to one nap? I do think this is the way to go now - get to one nap and longer A times. Sometimes even with a bit of OT you just need to push through it or you end up in an UT/OT loop which is worse in my experience  ;) :)



Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2015, 11:44:05 am »
To be honest, I am not sure about UT or OT. when I thought he was OT, just because I thought UT always with a cot party, though his mood was not good in nw, maybe every baby is different. I also noticed that I can get 1.5h nap with 5h A, but never get it with 4h A, so seems UT, and need to extending A.  his mood is ok, especially in moring, if I let him play, looks like he will play forever, he handles 5h ok, always long good naps after 5h, not a OT nap.
 
For recent days, it seems like based on bad night, with a better day, then getting a better night, but based on better night, same day leaded to a worse night.

For amount of sleep, yes, I noticed 12.5h now, I mentioned 13.15h before, but that's months ago, maybe changed now. for day sleep, I mean in different length of day, same day sleep or a little more if in a long day, for example with different wu 5:00 and wu 7:00, same BT at 19:00, same day sleep or more sleep if wu 5:00? I am not sure if more sleep in longer day will making thing worse, but if same day sleep, will be some OT at BT?

For wu, he changed much everyday, one day EW, annother day long NW, he woke later with sleep in, so it's hard to keep consistent.  and I don't know how long a day should be kept.

yes, I am aiming for a long am routine,  less stress about getting a long nap. appreciated you suggest a routine to get through one nap. That's the right direction whatever,really need your suggestions in details, what should I do if EW, and what should I do if NW ending closed to 6:00am.

Thank you very much, his sleep problem effect my life seriouly.

In additon, long NW this moring, 3:40~5:30 maybe, woke natuallly 8:00am, I don't know when should be BT, Just put him down at 13:00, he slept 1.5h, woke himself 14:30, no chance for a CN if BT 19:00, looked tired after 18:00, so put down 18:35, fell asleep quickly, will be bad night again maybe with so much sleep in this moring. should I woke him up on morning?or try a CN at 18:00 aim to BT 20:00? 


Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2015, 14:30:37 pm »
It's really hard with a LO who struggles to find a pattern, and who does those long early morning NWs.  I remember that age well, it was really hard. In the end I kind of did set naps cos it saved me from over analysing and trying things out.  Sometimes it worked for us and sometimes it didn't, but at least I wasn't always tweaking. I also found that, given a routine with a bit of slack, my LO could handle the odd long day as long as he had the chance to catch up the next day. It looks like that's what you're LO is doing too with the bad night / good naps / good night  / good naps / bad night pattern.

I think you could do the routine I posted above, but with set times of something like :

WU: 5.30 - 7am? I'd set a start time for the day which you're ok with and try and resettle til then.  If he's still awake at that point I'd get him up, but if he's sleeping past then, let him.
Nap 1: 10.30 - uncapped.  This may be short if WU is late, or longer if that first A ended up being longer. If WU is much before 5.30am I'd bring the nap forward to 10.45 but that's it.  Resettle if the A time before it ends up being long  (over 4.5hrs?), and nap length is less than 1hr 20.
Nap 2: 3.30 for 30 minutes. If he's tired, he'll take it  (you can AP this one if you want to - I found that essential to help keep perspective cos I could get out and know J had the opportunity to sleep  - if he needed it). If he's not tired, he won't take it and that's fine  :)
BT: Set at 7.45 if he takes the cn, 7.15 if he doesn't.

And that's it.  If he does a long nw, I'd just stick to the set nap times and know that he's got plenty of opportunities to sleep with that routine which should prevent OT building up.  A little bit on the odd day is fine - in fact it's inevitable. This routine should stop it building up into chronic OT and give you some peace.

The other thing is that you might find that there isn't really anything more you can do to improve his night sleep  - certainly not until he's been on one nap solidly for a few weeks. BW is all about finding something that works for the whole family, and you feeling ok about your LO's sleep is a big part of that.  Whatever you can do to reduce the pressure on yourself has got to be good, too.  Get out and about for that cn. Stop logging his sleep for a while. If he has a bad night or a day of short naps, that is NOT  a reflection of how well you're performing as a parent.  I struggled with this - I felt I was letting my LO down by not finding the right routine for them, but now I know that giving them opportunity to sleep and the ability to sleep independently is more than enough.  The rest is over to your LO :-*



Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2015, 23:26:45 pm »
yes, I need to find some way to relax myself, I am so stressful for his uncertain sleep.
I had some question about second nap, if he took it but later, should I cap it's length? for example, I take him out in pram, but he fell asleep till 16:30, cap it 15~20mins?
if he doesn't take it till some point, like 17:00, I have to back home, it will be a one nap day, is it too long to BT19:15?
If for several days, he doesn't take the cn, should I push his first A to heard for one nap?

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2015, 01:47:35 am »
another question,  Nap 1: 10.30 - uncapped.  If WU is much before 5.30am I'd bring the nap forward to 10.45 ,.
I am confused, so if wu is 5:00, bring nap forward to 10:45?before or after 5:30?

I have some sense of this routine now, give him three opportunities for sleep,  he can regulate in first nap and night sleep, which are both uncapped, up to him finally. if he woke up earlier, he may sleep longer for first nap with a longer A, so a long day with more sleep, if he woke up late, less sleep in a short day. and hope late BT lead to a late wu, because he may not sleep over 11h now.

Offline Martini~

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2015, 07:08:18 am »
Hi Ladies! I am just popping in with some different advice. Kate's advice are totally perfect but I am just thinking of with such a habit a gentle way of pushing the routine will give an effect. That said, I would either push the nap to 11:30 at that age and frankly speaking in one push or switch to short/long routine, even if only for a while, it should help to break the habit of waking at 5:30.
~Marta

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2015, 08:18:22 am »
Hi Martti,
thanks for your different advice. his problem is not habit of waking at 5:30, but still long NW early morning.

update today log,
nw4:00~5:00
wu:6:00 woke himself
nap1:10:30~11:45
nap2:15:45~16:15

so after 4.5A, still 1h15min nap, in recent four days, only after first

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2015, 08:24:07 am »
only after 5hrs, I can get 1h30mins nap. but even if we got 1h30min nap ,with a short nap in afternoon, still cann't get rid of long nw early morning. it seems like only first day did well , then became bad.

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2015, 09:08:42 am »
Hi Martti, you had gave me more suggestion about long am in another post,thanks. I wrote a long reply, but I thought maybe you missed my post, so now it's a new post.
Could  you look my logs? we tried to short am 30min, long 1h30m,  long am 1h30min, short am 30min or 45min, but still got long nw early morning, I'm so exhasted.
Kate and I are trying to rule out OT.
He is unhappy when I woke him after 30mins this afternoon, yawns many time, seems like not rest well.
Based on long nw night, even after a 1h30mins nap,  he accept afternoon CN easily, seems like the 1h30mins not restorative as expected.