Author Topic: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?  (Read 10012 times)

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Offline Martini~

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2015, 17:46:09 pm »
How long have you tried short-long routine? What time was short nap and how long it was?
Re long-short how late in th day you did it? And for how long? Can you push him to 11:30 at once?

Sorry Kate for different suggestion but I just feel that a big push is needed. He will be 1yo soon if I am ok and lsn babies will do 1 nap then close to 12:00 or even 12:30 so if your nap Gejun is at 10:30 steal sleep from morning nap is understandable.
~Marta

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2015, 20:23:03 pm »
I tried about 10 days, 3~3.5h from wu for 30mins,  then second 3.5A, with 1.5h nap.
re long-short, the longest A is 5h now, getting 1.5h nap, if A was shorter than 5h, nap was short like 1h~1h20min. I think you mean push him to 11:30 is based on wu around 6~6:30,BT 19:00? so first A should be at least 5.5h, maybe  6h, that's mean heading to one nap day ? 
I never pushed to 11:30, because I haven't get pm CN refusal. after a 1.5h nap,he always accept cn after 3.5h, maybe based on poor night,maybe chronic fatigue for UT-ot loop.

I also found in recent logs that total sleep is around12.5h maybe, don't know he drops his sleep need or a result of OT.

I know the book mentioned for lsn, any sleep before 12 will steal sleep from late night, but is it the only way to do? like Kate's JACK, he is super lsn,  but he did 1.5h at 10:30, still got great night.

now it seems it's hard to try the theory, cos for long nw early moring, at 6:00~6:30, sometime he was woke or just fell asleep half an hour later, I cann't prevent sleep in ,if woke him , he couldn't keep awake till 11:30, maybe I need a chance to get it.

in fact, Kate thought UT ,so suggested me push ,push, push,too, but I am worry about OT, so not brave enough to push so much, the reason I dont dare to one nap is I haven't getting nap refusal as I mentioned above, so not sure if he is ready for it.

if he can handle first A 5h easliy, then 1.5h nap, then handle 3.5~4h, doesn it mean he can handle 5.5A, then 2h nap, then handle 5h?

kate, what was jack's one nap day looked like at 10~11month? This is only thing I haven't tried. if I can get a STTN, I will brave to try it for one day, it cann't be worse than now.

Martii, suddenly another idea, if I want to try one nap day but no chance from 6:00~6:30, could I let him sleep in as he want on moring(at least he rests well , could handle long A), but BT late too? just like after nw, he may wake himself 7:30, nap from 13:00~13:30, aim to 2h, then BT20:00, is it crazy?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2015, 06:26:57 am »
Hi, sorry for the delay, I'm at my mum's this week and the Internet is a bit  patchy.  Thank you martii for your suggestions - I know you spent a lot of time with gejun on a previous thread, so you know the background better than I do :)  I agree gejuns LO needs to head towards one nap at 12ish - I was suggesting a start set nap time of 10.30 so gejun could move slowly towards it, though I did find at this age that jack could handle bigger pushes too.

Gejun - if you want to try a set nap, I meant that if your LO wakes very early, say 5am, to move his nap forward by 15 minutes to 10.15. My thought was that after a week or so, you move that nap back to 11ish and see how that goes. I think it will take 2-3 weeks of pushing that nap back to nearer 12 to get properly on one nap though, so your other option is to do it quicker, as martii suggested.

The idea with the cat nap is that it's another option for dealing with OT.  I would leave it as set at 3.30 - if he's not asleep by then (or imminently about to drop off ), then he can't be that tired, so you keep him up for an EBT instead. The next day he may be more tired and take the cn, or not. Gradually as the morning nap moves later, the cn stays at 3.30 and gradually he'll take it less and less and end up solidly on one nap. J would take an AP'd nap after 3.5hrs too at this point in the transition, but it wasn't long before he wouldn't AP a nap before 4hrs A. That was in the morning though - I think he would have carried on APing after 3.5hrs in the afternoon for a bit longer.  I stopped offering it in the end cos I could see his total sleep on 2 nap days was less than on one nap days, so we just fully switched to one nap and I stopped offering a cn.  He would have taken 2 naps if offered for longer than that if it was up to him.

Jack moved to one nap properly the week he turned 10 months. From what I remember he had a nap at 12ish by 11 months, for 1hr 20ish usually.  Then at 13 months I got tougher with the long nws and the same week he reduced his day sleep to only a 45-60 minute nap  nearer 12.45 (probably cos he was getting better night sleep), and then the nws stopped for good.

I hope that answers your questions? :)



Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2015, 07:03:17 am »
Yes, I got it,  :).

these two days, I didn't woke him at morning ,let him sleep him as he want, I found this way could reflecct his real A, and seems like nw didn't shorten A much, so a little mess about wu and BT time, but I keep A graduallly increased,  tried an  one nap in a shorter day, only one nw and was shorter than two nap day, but this only one day, so let us see what's going on next.

Today push A to 5h25min, got a 1h40min nap, woke happy, if he won't take cn this afternoon, Ebt today(more likely), will be another one nap day.
 
kept several days with same A, I found  4.5A -1h15min, 5h-1h30min, it seems like if I want to get  2h, need 6h. I also found he can handle bigger pushes too, he just unhappy on some points, ride it out he still plays well.

Offline Martini~

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2015, 08:49:57 am »
Hmm, what I wanted to state is that you cannot go for A times when your routine starts at 5am and you want to change it. You have to go by set times and move set time towards 12ish every couple of days as Kate suggests, not thinking of how long is he awake or so. If you do it in 10-14 days or in 1 day is your decision and I think both are fine. I am just saying that you cannot think of pushing A time, but try to PUSH SET time.
Almost 1yo with a long nap at 10:30 will give you NW  in the early mornings or EWU. That's quite obvious Honey. And the case is that waiting for him to wake later may never happen if you don't push him to do it.

And don't be so afraid of OT Honey. 2:1 transition generally results in OT so that doesn't surprise me at all that  he might me OT. But OT is also a thing you can deal with, ride it out or help him settle.resettle until your routine at least is in a good place.

Quote (selected)
I know the book mentioned for lsn, any sleep before 12 will steal sleep from late night, but is it the only way to do? like Kate's JACK, he is super lsn,  but he did 1.5h at 10:30, still got great night.
I am not mentioning any book Honey - there are many books and many different options you can go for. And even if Jack indeed slept/did something, it doesn't mean your LO will act like that. So you have to go for options which will work for your baby.
And if I am correct, at 11mo Jack wasn't having 1.5h nap at 10:30 Honey but as Kate states rather 12ish nap or even a later one.

And regarding routine long-short and short long - both are totally fine - however some suits  better some children. The most important  difference in my opinion is that for long-short routine you have to push first nap - push, push & push as if that nap is too early it usually results in EWU/ NW. With short-long routine, it doesn't matter so much when the first nap is - it matters however how long this nap is. And if EWU happens, you cut this nap usually instead of pushing the nap.
Which routine is better - both can be fine, but watch-outs for this routine are different.
~Marta

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2015, 23:16:24 pm »
Thanks Martti, yes, as you said, I am afraid  of  OT too much  make things worse now.
 
ladies, It seems at least we are on right direction, your suggestions are valuble.
 I Prefer pushing much now, could you give me a plan if I will push set morning nap to 11:30, when should set cn and BT?

I got a better night after pushing much. two nw around 3:00and 4;00,both around 10~15mins, resettled himself, woke 5:40 happily.

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2015, 06:08:07 am »
Great, fingers crossed it continues! I would keep the cn and BT at the set times I gave before.  As you move the first nap later, he's going to be less likely to take the cn as it gets closer to the morning nap, but it's still there in case he's very tired. That way he can self regulate and set the pace for 2 and 1 nap days. I definitely wouldn't move the cn any later in the day or you'll have a very UT boy at bedtime :)  Unless you're willing to move BT back a lot too, but I think you're better off phasing the cn out than extending your day.  To be honest, once you're getting a decent nap at 11.30 you're basically on one nap, and the cn only comes into play when the first nap is short.



Offline Martini~

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2015, 06:15:56 am »
I would also do as Kate suggests so set BT at 7pm let's say and catnap do whatever time you can BUT to end it before 5pm. I was doing catnap at 4pm for 30min for ages. When he started to refuse, I was apoping anytime between 4 and 5pm but giving him shorter catnap so 10-15min if the nap was let's say at 4:30.

What's interesting, we were pushing first nap for a long time from 10:00 to 12:00 but for us the catnap was almost the same time. So firstly settling 3:30/4:00, later settling at 4pm. It was very often UT catnap, I apoped many times but it worked. So I wouldn't think that he will refuse catnap
With a long A in the morning he still can be tired in the afternoon for a short nap.
~Marta

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2015, 23:43:47 pm »
Dear all ,
your explanation make me much clear now, thanks very much.

yesterday like this:
wu:5:40(I doubt still a long nw at 1~2am), keep him in dark bedroom till 6:40
nap1:11:35~12:50   1h15min, cann't resettled , he must be unfamiliar with such high A, shorter nap than I expected
nap2: 15:10~16:53   in car.
BT 19:00 , yawns 18:20, but still fell asleep 15mins later, UT?  should I cap the second nap to 30mins? I just want him catch up his OT his nap.
stirred an short woke at 22:30, woke up maybe 5:00 today?

It seems like  he is really a lsn ,right? 12~12.5h total . 13~13.5 is average at his age,right?

Kate, you are totally right, I cann't expect 11h night right now, 10h~10.5h is better I can expect now, 10h most likely.  if I get a decent nap at 11:30, we are on one nap in fact ,like a CT? cn only comes into play when the first nap is short,  if first nap is short, the cn should be 30min max?     

if I get a 2h nap at 11:30, should aim to BT 19:45? to expect a 10~10.5night , wu around 5:45~6:15am. if the nap is 1h30mn, and cn refusal ,aim to 19:15, expect a same wu time?

so above is my queston about BT, early bed time leads to early wu now, right?
I don't want to in a EW rut, 5:00 is too early.
 



Offline Martini~

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2015, 06:23:54 am »
I think that you cannot think so obsessively about hours of sleep he gets. Really without a proper routine its sometimes very difficult to assess sleep needs. I would bet my son was an lsn a year ago but frankly speaking now I have doubts - he was having 2h nap and sleeping 12h night (slightly less as you count settling and that he is awake at 7am when I come) so it's 14h a day at 17mo!!! A year ago in the middle of nursery settling I thought 2h a day is too much.
And yes I agree that it's unrealistic to expect him to sleep 12h right now but some day soon I really think 11,5 I achievable.

The case with two nap routine is that second nap is needed (sometimes crucial to prevent OT!!!) but can steal from the nap next day (as long nap on the next day is not only an effect of being tired after morning A but also cumulated tiredness from the day before. I wouldn't mind occasional longer nap in the afternoon but here when you are shifting routine I would risk capping this nap to 20min max. And yes, it will result in OT and crash but I would hope he will start eventually sleeping longer on first nap or at night. But this is how I would do it:). You may go much more slowly and gradually, so than cap last nap to maybe 45min, than 30 and finally 20 when the first nap will be a restful one for him but he still will need some sleep in the afternoon.
~Marta

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2015, 06:43:55 am »
these recent days his sleep changed quickly as night getting better. the length of nap at 11:30 vary , yesterday 1h15min, so he accept cn early than 3:30, I thought 45mins is reasonble, but he was ut at 19:00, so yesterday if I aim to BT19:00, Should cap it to 30mins, or BT later, today I got a 1h30mins nap at 11:30, I think he will accept 30min cn at 3:30, cos a long A in morning. so BT 19:00 will be UT too?
when should I push to 12:00 for morning nap,  get more refusal for cn based on decent first nap like 1h30min , or first nap become shorter consistently?

Offline Martini~

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2015, 10:14:19 am »
It's your decision Honey but from my experience, I wouldn't change much until something is wrong.
And firstly move to 11:45, than gradually to 12. And don't go for losing catnap at once but go gradually from 30min to 20min to 10min and finally he will refuse catnap some days, and some days he will need those 10-20min

When to change:
- when he is refusing catnap which is even apoped
- if you have early wakings so when you finally are at let's say 7am start of the day - and he will wake earlier and earlier
- when his morning nap will gradually be much too short - but for a time being I would accept some 1:30 naps and even some 1:15

In general I am not a fan of pushing to next routine if it's too early. Shifting a routine (not changing to "older" one) is a different story for me as this is one act of a push not building gradual OT with inappropriate routine.

Re BT- it's your choice. Right now I wouldn't change it as he still is tired and probably many days he still wakes before 7am so his day is long. When your routine is established you may gradually push for slightly later BT but try to keep max 13h day as its most kids' maximum so not to get OT.
Shifting BT from 7 to 7:30 and when on 1 nap go back to 7pm is also a way many mums are able to be longer on 2 naps routine which I like. Remember keep two naps (even if one is shortish) as long as possible as this really should help prevent OT in a longer spell.

Btw, very happy that you say that nights are better! Keeping fx for you!
~Marta

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2015, 00:14:58 am »
set nap at 11:30 three days, following are recent two days logs.

8.14
Awake 5:40, up 6:40
nap1: 11:35~12:50
nap2: 3:14~4:00      asleep in car easily.
BT:19:00, but took 15mins be asleep.UT
No long NW,maybe around 22:30 short NW

8.15
awake 5:00 ,up 6:20
nap1:11:25~13:00
no nap 2, I drived him out from 3:00, I had thought he would be asleep easliy,he yawned around 3:30, but kept awake till 4:50, have to back home, ate peach in car happliy, no sleep on way back home. :(I felt he was tired at 18:00, quick bath and formula then
BT:18:30, asleep quickly.
two NW :20:30(short Ot)     3:00~4:30
8.16
awake 6:30

I will offer cn everday.  yes, nights are not perfect, but better than before, at least we got some days without long nw. he was awake so early , have to super long A. ON day 8.14, if I cut the cn to 30mins, maybe he would asleep quickly and woke later next day.
if he still keep total sleep around 12~12.5h, it's hard to get a later wu except with long nw.
It just three days, will stick to it.

Offline gejun

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2015, 01:27:24 am »
sorry bothering you so frequently, must I met another question, he refused apoping for two days,. apop only worked for the first day.
so on 8.15, he refused asleep in car till 4:40,  was unhappy for a while after 3:30. wouldn't calm down for one hour, looked like felt boring in his safetyseat for such a long time.

yesterday like this:
8.16
awake 6:30
nap1: 11:30~12:45
nap2:17:05~17:20 . I drive him out at 14:45pm,  he still yawned like yesterday but didn't be asleep, then he wouldn't sit on safechair, wanted to sit in driver seat, cried loudly. finanlly, was asleep at 17:05, woke him 15mins later, unhappy, looks like very tired, BT19:00, asleep quickly . cried loudly at 12:00. after 2:30am, woke, stirred, light sleep, woke finallly 7:45 this morning happliy.

My question is what do you do apop? in pram or car? when did you go out for it? walk or driving hours till lo asleep? I unstand it's UT nap, which should be more restorative, on day 8.14, he acceptted it early, woke himself and happy after that till BT, but yesterday more like an OT nap, on day 8.15, if I kept driving, maybe he would asleep same around 17:00 too. Like Martti said, no reason he refused it after such  high A, with a not  long enough nap.

he acceptted the nap on car day 8.14 easily, so I am confused with the refusal on day 8.15 and 8.16, the night followed was worse.
It looks like when I try to some plan, only first day worked for him, then changed no reason.

these two days cn refusal are similiar ,  unlike an one off , any thoughts?

Offline Martini~

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Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2015, 05:44:26 am »
Honey it depends. I was riding a car or going for a walk in a stroller but I would never drive for 2h! I didn't have time:). My experience was also that if I try for a catnap to late or too early it resulted in refusal. Hi naps after 4:30 were very difficult to get no matter how much sleep he had during day and before 3:30 I didn't even bothered.

I'm a stroller he also needed time to get used to catnapping. So no matter which way you are using, if your previous naps weren't much often in a car or a stroller he may need time to get used.

Re first nap, it's still an overtired one I guess as he was doing longer ones with shorter A but also his long NWs stopped, am I right? So he has no sleep to catch up. I would keep 11:30 nap and try for it for next couple of days. Maybe you could consider slightly earlier BT for days without a catnap if he is sleeping until 7:45!
~Marta