Author Topic: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?  (Read 10148 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« on: July 11, 2015, 01:00:14 am »
I am ashamed to say that no much improvement for LO sleep. He is 10 month now.
I tried long am and short am for weeks, the first A from 3.5h to 4.5h, I keep the first nap around 1.5h, the second 30mins around, if BT is 19:00, he still wake at around 3:00,sometimes NW short as 1h,some long as 3h.

Whatever he sleep in day, he wake 8hs after his BT, so I thought he may sick, but doctor said he is healthy. They just suggest put off his BT.
I thought he must be massive OT for long time, maybe dyssomnia now?
The reasons I think he is massive OT are: long nw happen late night, not like a cot party,
Sometimes he wake, then quiet, if nw longer than 1.5h,he will cry, but not loudly, seems like SA, I try to rock him to sleep, feed water, but no use, when I rock him, he push me. He want to back to his bed. He rolled over in the cot long time, finally fall asleep.
In day , even after a 1.5 or 2h nap, he may be asleep in car 2.5 or 3h later, so he never refuse another long nap after a 1.5 or 2h nap. Also I neednít cut his afternoon nap since it will not effect his BT.
I even try let him sleep as he want in day time with around 3.5h same result.
I only got seldom STTn with very busy day to hospital, he had no chance to sleep long in car or pram, three 20~30mins cat nap, he must be very tired.
He is teething, but I think itís not the reason, teething is also strange, canine teeth first .
His mood is ok, in daytime, he play well independent, watching TV, smile, crawling, standing, not too excited, everyone think he is a good temper boy. What an OT baby looks like?

Yesterday, he woke up naturally at 7:00 (BT19:30, Last nap was too late, nw 3:00~4:00 ) , first nap from 10:30, 2hrs, second nap 3hrs later, 45mins, BT 19:00, stired at2:15,then quiet, wake at 3:15, fall asleep at 6:00, wake naturally 7:30.
I know he sleep in but cannít wake only 30mins after he was asleep.

If he is massive OT, is there any way to repair? I donít dare to a short am and long pm which worked for us before, if his afternoon nap was ideal, no chance to let him sleep more in day, and I found Ebt didnít work, just make his NW early too.

I am ashamed to say that no much improvement for LO sleep. He is 10 month now.
I tried long am and short am for weeks, the first A from 3.5h to 4.5h, I keep the first nap around 1.5h, the second 30mins around, if BT is 19:00, he may wake at around 3:00~4:00,sometimes NW short as 1h,some long as 3h. I think the routine didnít work because massive accumulative tired

Whatever he sleep in day, long wake happened, so I thought he may sick, but doctor said he is healthy. They just suggest put off his BT.
I intuition is he must be massive OT for long time, maybe insomnic now?
The reasons I think he is massive OT are: long nw happen late night, not like a cot party,
Sometimes he wake, then quiet, if nw longer than 1.5h,he will cry, but not loudly, I try to rock him to sleep,  but he push me. He want to back to his bed. He rolled over in the cot long time, finally fall asleep.
In day , even after a 1.5 or 2h nap, he may be asleep in car 2.5 or 3h later, so he never refuse another long nap after a 1.5 or 2h nap. Also I neednít cut his afternoon nap since it will not effect his BT.
I even try let him sleep as he want in day time with around 3.5h same result.
I only got seldom STTn with very busy day to hospital, he had no chance to sleep long in car or pram, three 20~30mins cat nap, he must be very tired.
He is teething, but I think itís not the reason, teething is also strange, canine teeth first .
His mood is ok, in daytime, he play well independent, watching TV, smile, crawling, standing, not too excited, everyone think he is a good temper boy. but I read from some book, very OT baby looks happy too,  What an OT baby looks like?

Yesterday, he woke up naturally at 7:00 (BT19:30, Last nap was too late, nw 3:00~4:00 ) , first nap from 10:30, 2hrs, second nap 3hrs later, 45mins, BT 19:00, stired at2:15,then quiet, wake at 3:15, fall asleep at 6:00, wake naturally 7:30.

If he is massive OT, is there any way to repair? shorter A and let him sleep as much as he want?

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 44
  • Posts: 2269
  • Formerly lovelylily
  • Location: UK
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2015, 19:55:04 pm »
Hi, sorry it's taken a while for you to get a reply.  And I'm sorry to hear you're still struggling.  There is no need to be ashamed that you don't feel your LOs sleep has improved.  The fact that you're doing your best for him is enough :) Some LOs are harder to figure out than others (my youngest was), and some are more sensitive than others too, which means even if you're doing the "right" thing it doesn't always work.

What does a typical day look like now?  It sounds like you've tried lots of different things so maybe we need to draw a line on what has or hasn't worked in the past and look at things again - after all, he will have changed since you tried some of those things.  I don't know how long you've tried any of them for, but really you need to stick at them for 3-5 days as a minumum to see the effect of any change, so it could be some things that seemed like they didn't work, would over a few days.

I only got seldom STTn with very busy day to hospital, he had no chance to sleep long in car or pram, three 20~30mins cat nap, he must be very tired.

Sorry, I didn't quite understand this.  Do you mean that on days when he only has 2 or 3 cat naps he sleeps better at night?

He is teething, but I think itís not the reason, teething is also strange, canine teeth first .

Also, canines can cause havoc with sleep, so it may well be that this is causing problems.  I know you've had difficulties for a while, but you probably need to wait until all his canines are through before making too many changes as the teething can make it look like something isn't working, when in fact it's just teething complicating things. 

Let me know what your day looks like now and we'll see where we are.  If anything jumps out at me I can suggest some things to try, but I'm aware that it might not make much difference while those teeth are cutting...




Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2015, 06:45:48 am »
Thank you for your reply. His EASY is a mess currently. for long NW which was closed to wake up time, the final wake up time were different everyday, Ill take records and post a couple of days soon.

Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2015, 23:38:40 pm »
hi dear,
If I confirm this long NW is accumulated OT, I pushed his first A too much despite his poor night, and limit his day sleep 2hr max, which may make him no chance to catch up his lost sleep, result in OT?
he never seems rested from naps. should I start from shorten A as 3.5 or 3 hrs and let him sleep as he want, then similar A for second nap , wake up from second nap to keep BT? Hope After couple of days when he will catchup and start sling UT shorter morning nap then push?
I may did wrong for last months, wrong direction
yesterday like this
 
7.15:
Wu:6:30(3:15am~4.15nw)
Nap1:10:30~11.10 he was very tired at 10:20
Nap 2:15:00~16:00  I woke
BT: 19:00
nw:4:00am~5:40am not a cot party, he struggle to fall asleep, defecate may also affected it.
7.16
WU:7:30  I woke.

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 44
  • Posts: 2269
  • Formerly lovelylily
  • Location: UK
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2015, 08:38:49 am »
I would try shortening A times to 3.5 hrs for the whole day, and hold for a few days to see how he gets on. Also, sorry if this was covered on your last thread, but what do you do when you hear him in the night?  We used to get very long nws at this time until my LO turned 1ish, I toughened up at night and his day sleep significantly dropped to around 1 hr. I think it's worth shortening A times to see if that helps, but it might be that you need to respond differently at night too to help, and / or play about with the amount of day sleep you allow.  How much sleep would you say he has in a 24hr period at the moment?



Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2015, 09:05:58 am »
two weeks ago, I needn't help him even long Nw, he didn't cry aloud. but recently maybe SA, he cried aloud when he woke, so I gave him water,he always drank quickly, then he roll over,  quiet for sometime,then roll over till sleep soundly.
I think his total sleep need is 13~13h 20mins.
I will try to around 3.5A with uncapped nap this week to see if he can rest well. if he rest well, his A should be higher and need less sleep than now.

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 44
  • Posts: 2269
  • Formerly lovelylily
  • Location: UK
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2015, 05:46:43 am »
Ok, good luck! :)



Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2015, 03:31:49 am »
below are logs :

7.15:
wu:4:30 maybe
nap1: 8:40~9:10
nap2: 12:00~12:35
nap 3: 16:12~16:55
BT:18:50

NW: 3:15~4:10
7.16
wu(6:30) wake
nap1 10:35~11:48  I put down him at 10:15, he just fight it for 20mins,maybe too tired
nap2  15:00~16:00  wake up him. 
BT:19:00 settle in five mins, maybe I shouldn't wake him from second nap?
Nw: 12:00, 2:30, quick resettle himself. 4:00~5:50

7.17
wu 7:30
nap1  10:45~11:40, I put down at 10:30, just play 15mins,
nap2  15:00~16:10
BT:18:40, settled at 19:10
Nw: 4:00~4:30

7.18
wu:5:30
nap1: 9:30~10:35
nap 2: 13:45~15:00
BT:18:00
NW:4:00~6:00

7.19
WU: 7.45 wake himself
nap1 10:30~11:05,  we have to out, he slept in pram, so nap was short
nap2  14:15~15:15
NW: 11:30, 2:30, quick resettle.

7.20
wu: 5:00
nap1: 9:00-9:50
nap2: 1:20-2:20
try to BT 17:30, but he fight,finally at 18:00
NW:3:40~4:30, wake up 6:00, during 4:30~6:00, maybe light sleep, I am not sure how much he slept.

He began fightor play when put him down when nap and BT, he never did it before, I think he is oT.
and I don't know how to do if he wake up too early, two nap or three nap? I even don't know if I should encourage more day sleep to get a good night since he is massive OT,and how to encouage more sleep,    or more day sleep will make night worse?
It seems like shorten A is right direction? if he is massive OT, will more day sleep encourage good night.? Should I shorten it to 3hrs?

Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2015, 08:25:33 am »
today is bad,
wu: 6:00, cried aloud.
nap1: I try to put down at 9:00, he fight, finally fall asleep at my arm, 9:25~10:15
nap2: I try to put down at 13:15, he fight very much, even rocking him , finally he fall asleep in pram at 14:50, woke 45mins later, unhappy and yawns.
try to early bed time today, will be a bad night. don't know why he fight sleep so much yesterday and today.


Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2015, 10:57:59 am »
oh, he has  diarrhoea , maybe the reason he fights the nap and cry.  I hate illness.

Offline LovelyLilyandJack

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 44
  • Posts: 2269
  • Formerly lovelylily
  • Location: UK
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2015, 19:04:19 pm »
Poor thing :(  If he's not well that probably is disturbing his sleep :( 

I've had a look at your logs.  I'm not so sure OT is your problem....  When he does A times of around 3 hrs, he naps for less time than when he does A times of closer to 4 hrs, which would suggest the short naps are UT to me.  I think you're probably a fair way through the 2-1 and the long NWs in the early hours of the morning were always UT related for my LO.  He might be OT through poor sleep, but the answer is more likely to be to push A times and get solidly on one nap I reckon.  It'll take a while to get there, but you've got to keep moving in that direction.

How about you try something like this:

WU:  6 (I know this is variable - this is just to give you an idea)
A: 3 hrs 30
Nap: 9.30 - 10 -capped at 30 minutes
A: 3 hrs 30
Nap: 1.30pm - Uncapped - resettle if less than 1 hr 20
A: 3hr 30 - 4 hrs
BT: 7pm

I would start doing a set BT, and just put him down 30 minutes earlier if he's had a bad day of naps, but I think in general your last A is quite short.  I'd keep it at a minimum of 3hrs 30, even if you've had terrible naps all day.  A nap too close to BT often gave us long NWs in the early hours.

Having said all that, please wait til he's better before trying anything :)  If he's ill he probably will need more sleep and will find it harder to settle.   You won't learn anything by how he's behaving when he's ill - just follow his cues and not the clock for  a while til he's back on track :-*



Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2015, 02:56:26 am »
Thanks so much, I feel I am insane about his OT. so last night was not too bad, short cry ,quick resettled at 22:30, 2:00,3:00. woke around 4:50, was happy.
I also found three months ago, we did similiar routine as you suggested,  like this:
wu:6;00
nap1 9:00   45mins
nap2 12:45   1hr15mins
BT:19:00

we got weeks great nights, but suddenly multiple NW appeared and nap 2 became shorter or long broken nap. now look back it, maybe just need to make a little change at that time, but I didn't know here and don't know how to do it at that time.

Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2015, 03:05:54 am »
By the way, for short am/ long pm, it's really hard to find a right second A, right?

Offline Dino44

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 14
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2015, 18:53:59 pm »
We do short am nap (30 mins) and long pm nap (generally 1.5-2 hours) and LO tends to sleep through but our issue is only 10.5 hours night sleep. Only get the magical 11 or 12 once or twice a week. LO is almost 10 months. Not sure if our schedule for awake times would help you to find awake time? We only got a longer second nap when we cut the first nap to 30 mins.

WU average 6am (sometimes before, sometimes after but do set naps and BT)
Nap 1-9.45-10.14
Nap 2- 1-3.
I was so surprised that this awake time was so short and was getting 1 hour 10 OT naps for ages before I realised LO was OT not UT.
Bedtime 6.45, pushing to 7pm before he settles now.

Not sure if this is useful for you at all? X

Offline gejun

  • BW Aficionado
  • ***
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 134
  • Location:
Re: long NW need to repair,insomnic now?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2015, 22:59:04 pm »
Thanks Dino44, itís useful for me, because I cannít identify nap is UT or OT according to itís length.
7.21
Wu:6:00
Nap1: 9:25~10.15   
Nap 2:14:50~15:35
BT:17:50
Cry loudly at 22:10, short NW 1:45, 2:45
7.22
WU:4:45  so nearly 11hr
Nap1: 8:50~9:24  refused to nap, have to put him in pram for walk, finally fell asleep at 8:50, he always did short nap in pram.
Nap2:13:10-14:40  cry at 35mins, then resettled himself, I woke at 1hr 30mins to limit day sleep,
BT:18:20  he yawned 17:20
7.23.
WU:4:30 !!!  Similiar short NW like yesterday

What should I do with such an earlier wu time? Itís seems like have to extend all A to get a reasonable BT, but will produce more day sleep and a following short night? or a third CN like 15 min around 17:00?
I donít understand why he cried loudly on 22:00~23:00, it happened everydays now.
He seems recover from diarrhea.
But his temper changed lot this week, he used to be a good independentt sleeper, especially at night. But now, he plays almost 15~20mins at nap time or cry. At BT time, once I left the room, he will cry, when he woke , he yelled , be quiet till saw me.