long NW need to repair,insomnic now?

[Dino44]

I think there is a lot of developmental stuff going on at the moment-our sleep has certainly gone pear shaped a few times. We tend to leave LO in the crib till at least 6.30 unless crying. Normally he is moaning/chatting and will to back to sleep after 45 mins/1 hour if he wakes before 5.30 and means we can start our day at a better time. Apart from that we do set naps as in last post regardless of wakeup so sometimes he goes 5.45-9.45 for first awake and sometimes from 7-9.45 and a much shorter awake. I feel that the set naps have allowed me to get control over my day and also LO now seems to get tired at those times. We got rubbish second nap until we cut down the first nap. Have you tried that? Appreciate its risky if it doesn't work? We also have black out in the day and white noise playing. If he wakes at 35 mins or 1 hour 10 (overtired) I leave him to resettle which he normally does within 5 mins. Don't know if any of this is any help at all but our Little ones are similar ages and we just need to shift this pesky early morning waking now!!!

[gejun]

My problem is different , now I confirm he is accumulate OT, the long NW is OT not UT, when he have bad nap, the night will be worse.
when he had STTN with three CN, just crashed. so I did wrong last two months.
now, two naps with 3.5A seems cann't reach a reasonable BT. for OT,  even a long nap couldn't refresh him now, and it's also hard to get a long nap now.
any suggestion about it?

[gejun]

Dear Lovelylilyjack,
Our last A a was short  because I found if it is long, early night cry happpened, so I think he was ot at BT.
Could you look this day:7.19
WU: 7.45 wake himself
nap1 10:30~11:05,  we have to out, he slept in pram, so nap was short
nap2  14:15~15:15
NW: 11:30, 2:30, quick resettle.
BT 17:50
He slept nealy 11hours till 4:50am.
It looks good , just BT and wu are too early
my question is lo is not tired enough, could he easily settled at BT?

[Martini~]

Hey Hon, can I help in any way?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That day you posted does look good.  If you'd been at home and done a morning A of 3 hours and he'd napped for nearer an hour you'd have had a decent BT too.  If you think he's OT, why don't you try a few days of shortened A time to see if it helps?  Maybe try A times of around 3 hrs / 3hr 15 with uncapped naps, and BT not before 6.30.  If he won't do more than 11 hours at night (it seems) then if you make BT too early you will end up with early starts.  Jack is the same - early BT only works to a point.  Otherwise he just shifts his night.

my question is lo is not tired enough, could he easily settled at BT?

Jack always did.  If he was UT it always came out as an EW.  He'll always go to sleep at BT within 5/10 minutes, but will EW if his naps the previous day were too long / A time was too short.  My daughter was the opposite though, and wouldn't settle at BT if UT.  It can go either way.

[gejun]

if I  try A times of around 3 hrs / 3hr 15 with uncapped naps, and BT not before 6.30, it looks like every nap need to at least 1.5hr, to reach a BT not before 6:30 right? so need total day sleep around 3hrs to reach a reasonable BT.
I have thought if a baby is not tired enough, he will play around .
 Thanks Martti, just still stuggle with NW, I try long/am short/PM, for it's reallly hard to get right second A, but it seems lo didn't like it, we got long nw in late night.
I tried to shorten A as you saw I posted logs, wish here wise ladies could found what's wrong and what should I start now.
I am total lost.

[gejun]

sorry I made a mistake, I mean I prefer a long am/short pm, because it's hard to find right A for short/am longam  , and I cann't imagine how to reach one nap from it. But lo seems hates it, we got long nw with it. maybe becauce a bad beginning. before I try to switch to long am,  I had a sttn with wu 5:30,
nap1:9:00~10:11
nap2: 13:20~14:55 I forgot maybe I woke him up
BT 19:00
NW:4~5:30am,

day2
wu:6:30
nap1:10:20~11:50 wake up
nap2:15:00~15:30 he seems tired at 14:30
BT:19:00 
nw,22:30, 3:00,4:00,5:00, all short nw.

following days are similiar.

[Martini~]

Can you please post your log for last 5 days, but don't state cryouts at night when he self-settled as NW?

How old is your LO right now?

[gejun]

sorry I haven't last five days logs for so exhaused. I will post logs from yesterday.he will be 11 month this weekend. yesterday tried short am again because don't know what shoudl I do, despite of I am so stessful the second A  and worry about he wakes early from the nap.
7.28
wu 6:35(long NW late night)
nap1 9:30~10:00  woke  up
nap2 13:15~14:45 woke  up
BT 18:40 settled quickly
NW 3:40~4:00   
7.29
WU: 6:25  woke himself natually

could I still stick to long am? I have no confidence getting a long pm nap ,yesterday long nap was more like compensate for poor night.and I don't know how to get a transition with short am/long pm

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Tbh I'd just start off with something and stick with it for a good 4 days and then see where you are.  It's the only way you're going to figure out what works for him.

Yesterday looks like a great day. I know you said the long pm nap was only cos of a bad night before that, but the only way you'll really know is if you do exactly the same again today after a good night.  If he then does a shorter second nap it'll indicate that he may need a little more A before that second nap (cos he went into it more rested), and at the end of the 4 days you factor that in and decide what to do. It is possible to find the right A time to reliably give a long pm nap, but you're unlikely to stumble upon it and there will always be other things (like teething / developmental stuff) which affect it even when you do.

That's where a set BT comes in for me. If you have a set BT of 7, say, and that second nap turns out to be short then you just put him to bed a little earlier. If he's had a really short second nap then make BT 30 minutes earlier than usual.  If he's slept an hour instead of 1hr 30, say, then just make BT 15 minutes earlier.  You have to find what works for your LO, those are just examples, but hopefully it gives you an idea of how it could work.

[gejun]

Thanks Lovelylilyand jack.

 I got a perfect 1.5h just now, 13:20~14:50, first time getting this magic length nap, the second A is 3hrs 20mins, so aim to BT19:00.
expect a better night
 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Good stuff, hope it continues to go well over the next few days   I'm away for a couple of days so might not get on here much but will check in when I can.

[gejun]

I felt down, after a 1h 25mins nap, he yawned 16:30, I thought it's not sleep cues, just hungry or others, but when he took his formula at 18:40, he ate not well, I thought he was OT . BT 19:00. short cry around 22:30, seems sign of ot,He woke 3 am, yawns many times, upset, till now, 5:00am, he seems finally asleep now, poor baby.
so yesterday better night was more like a crashed night? 20mins later BT made so much difference？

My intuition still is massive accumulated OT, I did many wrong things to him since his sleep cues never be obvious since he was 6 month. I ever tried three CN for days, only becuse I thought a crashed day was he needed.
 his A looks much shorter than his age now,like 6 months? I found even after a restorative nap, he can easily falls asleep in car 2.5 or 3hrs later.

what should I do today? early BT didn't work. he just woke 11 hrs later. looks like his total sleep need is 13h15min, little change from 6 months, but his A is short, cann't reach BT with normal day sleep.
I hope I am wrong for accumulated OT, but if it's true, is any way to let him recover? I even thought I may lost him just now,the long nw lasted two months. he was also clingy this week,

[gejun]

another question, when I try to be consistent, with long NW, when should I woke him up on morning.  11.5~12hrs after BT?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I still think you should stick with the same routine for at least 4 days - it's the only way you're going to figure anything out.  If he's OT then the A times you're doing should help.  After 4 days we can see where you are. I don't think you can look at one day or one BT and judge, you have to look at the day sleep, day length, the night before, the naps the day before that etc, and you only get that picture by being consistent.

another question, when I try to be consistent, with long NW, when should I woke him up on morning.  11.5~12hrs after BT?

I wouldn't wake him at all, especially if you think he's OT. Just do your normal A times, it all feeds into the overall picture