EASY for almost 8 month old without routine

[mima35]

My LO is almost 8 month old and I don't know where to start.  She doesn't have a routine. It's bottle feeding (pumped breastmilk). The problem is that she sometimes doesn't want to eat during the day and is hungry when she sleeps (at night). I don't know how to change that. I tried to give her more during the day but she sometimes just turns her head aside and doesn't want to open her mouth. We are introducing solids and she doesn't want to eat anything
When she was younger she used to sleep better, sometimes 5-6hrs in a stretch and could fall asleep by herself. That changed when she turned 3 or 4 months and can't soothe herself. She can't even fall asleep im a carseat. When I put her down in her crib on the first signs of tireness she rolls over, crawls, plays with pacifier. She can do it gor 1-2 hrs without crying. Than she starte crying, I pick her up and she doesn't stop until she falls asleep. How to do PU/PD im this case? She has 2x1,5hrs naps (doesn't fall asleep by herself) and she maybe needs a catnap. Sometimes she looks overtired when it is sleeping time at 19h. But when she has a third nap she doesn't go to nightsleep until 21h.
I'm lost and I really need help. With feedings and sleeping because she wakes million times in a night. When we have a 3-4hrs in a stretch that is a good night for us.
I hope you can help us

[jessmum46]

Hi there and welcome to the forums

I know you say you don't have much of a routine but as she has two 1.5h naps and a regular BT I'm betting there is more of a routine there than you think . Maybe you can post a couple of days for us in EAS format?  Just log when she wakes, eats, when you try to get her to sleep and when she actually sleeps. 

It sounds like she may have developed a bit of a feed to sleep habit overnight so it may be a case of some sleep training in combination with a routine tweak to make sure you only have two naps (I'd avoid a catnap at this age as it can cause problems with night wakings or early waking).  Once we see a normal day for you it will be easier to advise about that. I'm guessing the reason she's a reluctant eater in the day is that she's eating all night so we'll need to work on moving those calories back to the daytime too.

Regarding PUPD, at this age you can pick up when crying but you hold for a minimal length of time, say a key sleep phrase and put back down again - have a peek at the FAQs here: Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know! you don't wait for them to stop crying, you put down even if still crying and then pick up briefly again if necessary. 

Will look forward to seeing your usual day

[mima35]

7:00 wake up
9:00 6oz bottle
9:00-11:00 nap
13:00 2oz bottle
13:00-15:00 nap
18:00 bath, massage, 5oz bottle
20:00 falls asleep
22:00 4oz bottle
2:00 6oz bottle and awake till 4:00
7:15 wake up

7:15 wake up
7:30 6oz bottle
9:40-11:20 nap
12:30 6oz bottle
13:45-14:30 nap
17:00 3oz bottle
18:00 bath, massage, 3oz bottle
21:00 falls asleep
22:00 2oz bottle
2:00-4:00 awake, 6oz bottle
7:00 wake up

7:00 wake up
7:45 5oz bottle
8:40-9:30 nap
13:00 1oz bottle
13:00-14:30 nap
16:00 3oz bottle
18:00 bath, massage, 5oz bottle
19:10 falls asleep
22:00-00:40 awake, 5oz bottle
3:00 5oz bottle
5:00 2oz bottle
6:45 wake up

I don't mention solids because we still introducing it (she still presses her lips). She eats about 26oz pumped breastmilk/day. I thougth it's not enough but she's gaining weight, happy, smiling, playing, exploring and seems to be enough for her. I tried to feed her more but with no results. The main problem is sleeping and that she wakes up in the middle of the night and stays awake for 1, 2 or 3 hours. That's new. It happend rarely bug now it happens every night. She still doesn't have teeth. Crawls (on the belly), tried to sit up and stand.
Any help is welcome. Thank you

[jessmum46]

My suggestion with her routine would be to extend her first two awake times and try to shorten her last one.  She is doing some very short A times sometimes, less than 2h on occasion whereas we'd expect an 8 month old to handle at least 3h A time, if not closer to 3.5h.  At the moment she is using her first early nap as an extension of her night sleep and I think that's probably part of what's continuing to cause issues at night. 

You won't be able to leap to 3-3.5h all at once without her becoming very very tired but I would start probably at 2.5h or so, do not let her go back to bed for her first nap until at least that time after getting up for the day.  Three days of that then not before 2h45, then another 3 days and 3h.  You could follow cues for the second nap for now until you get that first awake time extended.  Then once that's at least 3h do the same with the second one and get that pushed out to a good 3h.  That will mean your last A time isn't quite so long and hopefully will mean you have less of the UT/OT loop happening.

Let me know what you think of that, and I'll be back soon with some thoughts about the bottles overnight x

[mima35]

Thank you sooo much. I'll start tomorrow to extend her activity times 

[jessmum46]

How is it going?

[mima35]

She wake up at 6.15
1. Nap 9:45-11.10
2. Nap 14.15-15.15
Got to sleep at 21.00 (but she isn't awake 2hrs in the night)

But the feedings are better
At 7, 11, 15 and 19 (and 23 and 3, don't know how to cut that, tried to feed more during the day but she doesn't eat less at night, so the last 2 days she ate 34oz/day)

I think that her sleep is also affected by the weather (it's soooo hot last days here).

[jessmum46]

Why was bedtime so late? 

[mima35]

We tried to get her to sleep right after the bad and massage at 18 but she couldn't fall asleep

[mima35]

I'm doing something wrong. What should I do when I put her to bed? She rolls over and crawls, climbs etc. Should I let her do it or should I put her down? When I let her do it she doesn't seem sleepy anymore and if I put her down she's angry. What to do? What is the right PU/PD method for 8 month old? And we shouldn't use nithing (paci, stuffed animal etc.)?

[jessmum46]

How long does bath and massage take, as in what time did you first put her in bed? I wonder whether she is getting a second wind so finding it hard to settle?

If she is playing and messing about when you put her in bed I would totally ignore her and leave her to it.  You can only PUPD if she is crying and it may be your presence is over-stimulating her. Is her room totally dark? White noise?  Did you read the PUPD link I posted above?

[mima35]

About 30 min. She used to sleep at 19h. Only sometimes it was earlier or later. We put her at 18:30 to sleep. She is sleeping in our room but in her crib. It's not totally dark and sometimes there are noises from outside sometimes not.
I red the book but I will read the link again. Thank you soooo much for helping me

[jessmum46]

No problem, I've had a lot of help here myself and it's good to pay it forward

Ok if she in bed at 18.30 I wouldn't have thought she should be particularly OT....that's about a 12h day give or take, with two not too bad naps.  Though if she had a very short night the day before she could still have some accumulated OT.  Do you think she would have gone down sooner or did she seem totally happy when she was put down?

I would try blacking out the room, even some tinfoil on the windows as a temporary measure can help enormously.  Also although sleeping arrangements are a very individual choice have you given any thought to getting her into her own room?  Is that possible with space restrictions?

[mima35]

Maybe it's the short night. I don't know. She seems tired soon after second nap about 16.30/17 but she plays and than comes bath, massage etc. and at this point she doesn't look too tired. But I think she is because she becomes very very active (maybe a sign that she is tired) and can't sleep. Although it doesn' happen every night. Sometimes she gets to sleep at 19, sometimes at 20 sometimes later.
We can make the room darker and we have also an extra empty room (her room) but we didn't moved her yer because she wakes so lot. Maybe we should now.

[jessmum46]

That's your call I just found with LO in a different room I was less inclined to rush in and help too quickly yk?