Do I have a prop???

[First mum]

Evening Ladies,  My 14mo lo has been falling asleep at the boob for her night time feed since starting daycare 2 months ago.  I only breastfeed morning and night and she has no other bottles during the day.  Up until about 3 weeks ok would still self settle for both her day naps and night time would go down sleepy but not asleep and settle in less than 15 minutes.

Since day-care she is super tired and I have no chance to pop her down awake.  Bedtime is 6pm and I start feeding about 5:40.  On the actual day care days and for the first couple after I generally have to jiggle for almost the whole feed to keep her going.  After nearly 20 mins of this I'm pretty tired and she is sound asleep.  We have the ocassional blip in the first hour but usually will sttn.

Rewind about 3 weeks ago when we got a nasty ear infection and typical winter cold.  We still have a terrible cough but everything else is greatly improved.  This coincided with ss for day naps going to pot and I would settle her (easily) with patting or rubbing her back or even sitting beside the cot.  Multiple nw with coughing and a couple of long awake stretches have led to an overtired lo who started cutting her 2 naps shorter and ew.  Thankfully we are getting on top of the ot'ness slowly.

Previously stopped ss for about 2 weeks when we cut 4 teeth in the space of 8 days but she was only 9 months old then.  Has been a really good self settler since about 5 months old.

Is her ability to ss going to come back or am I going to have to help her overcome this? I have no idea how to do this?

Any suggestions for the bt feed?  Obviously no problem at the moment but whats in store for me in the next 3-6 months if I don't get on top of this now.

Thanks in advance.

[anna*]

Hi there. I'm going to move this over to Toddler Sleep since your baby is over a year old.

If it's not a problem right now, I wouldn't worry about it. You could do your feed a bit earlier, then wake her up/rouse her fully before putting her in bed?

[cath~]

I agree with Anna.  If she's SS before then I'm sure it will return.  However, lif it doesn't immediately (ie once she's less tired at BT) then you can gently encourage it again by eg helping her to settle in her cot with PD, shhing/your voice, or a hand on her (whatever works best) then gradually reduce the amount of help you give her.  IME though with my two I think she'll get the hang of it again quite quickly and you might not have to do anything.  Does she still SS for naps?  If so, then that's a big help.
I'd wait and see and if it does become an issue, you can always post here again for hep.  Also, in the meantime, you could try rousing her slightly like Anna said before lying her down. 

[First mum]

Thanks Ladies, unfortunately the ss has also gone with a recent illness and we are coming up 3 weeks.  The falling asleep at night has been about 2 months since starting daycare.

Last night she stopped feeding so popped her down awake and rubbed her back for a few minutes.  Small blip at 11pm but settled back well with a bit of shushing and through to 5:20.  Think I will try and keep awake or rouse again tonight!

[First mum]

Not possible tonight as daycare only managed 10 minutes sleep, so really struggled to jiggle her awake.  Grizzled briefly when I unlatched her and again when I put her down but don't think she really woke.  Was a pretty rubbish feed overall so will try again to rouse her either tomorrow if better sleep at daycare or on Friday when she is home with me.

[cath~]

don't worry too much.  As long as you're able to rouse her sometimes I'm sure she'll gradually get used to going to sleep more and more awake iyswim

[First mum]

Hi Cathn, my lo has been awake following her bedtime feed the last 2 nights.  She has upped her dinner solids the past couple of nights so is actually stopping and when I offer again she is saying no.  Last night was a bit yuck, I popped her down and she immediately is up on her knees and then standing saying mum mum mum.  I turn off the light say my bedtime phrase and sit beside the cot.  Bum stroking with the occasional shush if she gets upset.  Fast forward 30 minutes and hubby took over, less than 10 minutes later she was asleep.  Slept through till 6am with a blip at 3:30 couching and gagging 

Tonight similar except she was really upset. Hubby took over but still no luck so I went back in and picked her up.  She was holding on so tight it made my heart squeeze.  Cuddles for about 10 mins and then I popped her back down.  She did a little grizzle but I shused her once and stroked her tummy about 3 times and asleep.

How long is too long to cuddle following feed before I put her down?  Any suggestions to try to make this settling easier for my lo?

Thanks

[cath~]

If the cuddle helps relax her then a gentle approach would be to cuddle her until she's relaxed and sleepy, then put her down. Then you can gradually reduce the amount of cuddling you give her.

It also might be worth looking at her routine in case there's a chance she's a bit UT at BT. Is that possible ? That might also increase the resistance.

Otherwise, if you stick with it consistently for a few days (ie settling her in her cot) then she will start to get the hang of it again.  Things have changed for her so she's protesting which is normal. But if you're consistent she'll get the hang of IS again.

[First mum]

Thanks cathn,

UT has crossed my mind but with her falling asleep feeding it hasn't really been an issue.  Sometimes that was occurring when she was waking from her avo nap at 2:30 so an A time of 3.5 hours.  Thurs night possibly as had a 20 min cn on me at 2:30 and resisted bt of 6pm for about 40 minutes.  Last night though was A 5.5 and resisted again for about 40 minutes.

While we are transitioning would you suggest moving her bedtime depending on her A time?  What should be an ideal A time for a 14m LO?

[cath~]

It's hard to talk about A times at this age as it can vary a lot, especially since lots of LOs are transitioning from 2-1 naps.

Is your LO still taking 2 naps? If you could post a typical routine then that might help.

Could she have been OT after the 5.5 hr A time the other night? Was that after a long or short nap?

[First mum]

Thanks cathn, we have been on 1 nap for just over a week now. 

The 5.5 hr A time was after a 1h 45 nap and she woke at 12:45pm.

Working on getting her to an 11:30am nap but on this particular day we only made it to 10:45. My LO had resisted a cn late avo so I just rolled with it for a normal bt of 6pm.

More change over the last couple of days.  Yesterday cn of 15 minutes at 8am and nap a 11:15 for 2 hours.  Bedtime 6:15 fell asleep feeding.  Tonight similar, no cn today and managed to keep her going till 11am.  Only slept for 1h15 (totally independently no blips but unfortunately resisted resettling but had a lovely afternoon.  Bedtime 6pm and again fell asleep feeding.

Started walking today so loads going on, including loads of snot   If anything I think we have a bit of OT going on as last 2 nights were pretty rough with a 4:30am wake up and there was no-way she was going back to sleep and last night unsettled on and off with coughing and snot 1:30-4.  Hoping with the walking emerging we may see our nights settle down.

[cath~]

Sounds like EBT might be the way to go for a bit to help her catch up then

It's tricky with so much going on

[First mum]

Thought Id jump back in here and see if there are any more pearls of wisdom that might be able to help.  Looking back my little one has been in daycare now just over 3 months 2 days per week.  We have had all manner of coughs and colds, hand foot and mouth, conjunctivitis... you name it we've had it!!

Along with all of these wonderful bugs my darling LO has stopped self settling to sleep.  We are down to 1 nap at about 11:30 for 2-3 hours which is nice.  I am not able to leave the room until she is asleep.  Some days she falls asleep while I am singing her song, other days bum rub and a bit of shushing, other days sitting beside the cot.  It takes between 5-10 minutes.

Night time she falls asleep feeding.  We have tried feeding earlier, jiggling.  I have even weaned her morning feed as she was falling asleep after a couple of hours being awake in the morning.  She has a really strong sleep association with breastfeeding.  I am at the point now where Im worried for her to be awake as she wont self settle and I am worried how it will go.

Any suggestions for getting her back to self settling?  She is a really sensitive soul and SA has been an issue since about 12.5 months.  Do I need to think about weaning completely and tackling everything?
TIA

[cath~]

No, I don't think you need to wean completely at all.

She settles without a bf for naps so that's good. And she takes a nice long nap too

Does she have any NWs or NFs at the moment? How does she settle with them?

Have you seen this link re weaning feeding to sleep at BT?
PANTLEY'S GENTLE REMOVAL PLAN

It's a very gentle approach so might be good for your LO:

Let me know what you think.

[First mum]

Thanks Cath, this is her only remaining bf.  I read through the link you sent me and that is what I'm currently doing but I think I may need to do it a bit earlier.  If she is really tired I only feed 8 minutes aside and then pop her off.  Sometimes she will give a little grizzle and move in looking again but I just let her snuggle for 3 or 4 seconds then pop her up on my shoulder.  I then dim the light and move towards the cot (counting in my head to 15) I then lay her down, help her to roll onto her tummy, cover her up, raise the cotside and that's it.  Sometimes she will open her eyes but not very often.

No night feeding and sttn unless teeth or illness.  With these nw I try and leave for a few minutes to see if she will push through on her own.  If not I will whisper to her that its still sleepy bobbyes time, usually as soon as I say this if she is standing she will lie back down.  Gentle bum/back rubbing for a minute or two and then I leave.  The teething nw can be longer and sometimes involve a cuddle, pain meds and an offer of water.  The molars seem to be the worst and we have had some really long nw in the last couple of weeks.

I think I could be taking to heart a few comments I have had about making a rod for my back with feeding to sleep and her not being able to settle to sleep?!?!

[cath~]

It doesn't sound like the evening bf is a problem at the moment then since she's not needing it to resettle during the night. IIWY I'd just keep working gently on putting her down more and more awake , as you're doing.

Perhaps you could do the bf slightly earlier so she's less sleepy , and then at some point introduce a BT story between the bf and putting her down?

Similarly with naps , it doesn't sound like you being with her while she nods off ATM is a problem. You could work on GW so you gradually move further and further away from her as she nods off if you wanted to.

[First mum]

Hi Cath, its like all or nothing  am feeling very confused and helpless.  This is the 2nd time this week that she has been sleepy (eyes closed) when finishing feeding, I pop her off she snuggles in and all seems to be going well but as soon as I put her up on my shoulder we have an absolute battle.  Tonight I popped her off at 6:40 and once on my shoulder she was so angry with me, she kept pushing my chest and crying so intensly arching her back.  She eventually calmed and snuggled I gave her a long cuddle and told her sleepy time and I popped her in the cot and then the battles start again.  She will not lie down or stop crying.  She is quiet for a couple of seconds and then it starts all over again.  This happened 4 nights ago and I ended up rocking her to sleep.  I feel like I have no idea where to start.  Up until 3 months ago she would go to bed and naps happily awake and settle to sleep, every night is different and there is no real pattern.  I am on tenderhooks with the whole evening feed as I have no idea if she is going to go down well or we are going to have a battle.  Tonight an hour later and she is asleep, hubby rocked her 

I am tired, I'm getting about 4-5 hours sleep a night because I have an awful cough and to be honest I don't think I am coping very well with not understanding what's going on or how I can make it easier for my LO. 

I have no idea what to do

[cath~]

((hugs)) sounds really rough

what's her routine been like for the last few days?  Could you post what her days look like and if there have been any changes?  Is she napping ok?  could she be UT or OT at BT?

Could she be teething again?  Or is she in a wonder week?

all these things could make settling harder for her

[First mum]

Morning Cath, no real changes. Eating like a horse again so maybe a gs and lumpy gums??  Last couple of days...

Friday
A 6:15 up at 6:30
N 11:35 for 1.5 hrs
BF 6:15 massive battle when I popped her on my shoulder.  Offered both sides again and rocked her to sleep, took just over an hour.
Asleep 7:40
STTN

Sat
A 5:15 up at 6 bit grizzly but don't think she went back to sleep
CN 8 for 15 mins
N 11:45 for 2h55mins
BF 6:40
Asleep 7
Awake 9-11:15 pain med, gel and cuddles given. Fell asleep lying beside me on a mattress on the floor


Sun
A 6.15 up at 6:30
CN 9 for 15  mins
N 11:40 for 2h45min
BF 6:30
Asleep 6:50
STTN

Mon
A 6:15 up 6:20 I heard her at 5 but went back to sleep
CN 9 for 15 mins
N 12 for 2h 15 mins
BF 6:20 massive battle when I popped her on my shoulder.  Told her boobies were finished, got her calm into the cot.  Battles began again took an hour. Hubby rocked to sleep.
Asleep 7:45
STTN

I think I may have muddled a few days and times but this gives you an idea.  Livy has a cn usually the 4 days following daycare.  Today is the 5th and she doesn't usually have one.  Both daycare days are really rubbish for sleep, last week she had 25 minutes one day and 35 the next.  With her daytime nap it takes me about 5-10 minutes to get her to sleep, rubbing her back or sitting beside the cot, she is calm and relaxed.  I am going to try and reduce the rubbing over the next week.  This is where I would like to get with night time, but I don't know where to start.  Once we are here and calm then I think we can work towards leaving the room like we use to.

Really appreciate your help Cath

[cath~]

With her daytime nap it takes me about 5-10 minutes to get her to sleep, rubbing her back or sitting beside the cot, she is calm and relaxed.  I am going to try and reduce the rubbing over the next week.

yes, that sounds sensible

Since she's not "battling" sleep at nap time, I wonder if she's a touch UT at BT hence the battles?  Does she seem tired before you BF her?  What about trying BT/BF 15 mins later than you are at the moment and see if that helps at all?

[First mum]

Hi cath, 5 days now of trying to reduce my intervention at nap time and I am no further ahead.  She becomes so worked up so quickly if I remove my hand, to the point of hiccups!  Any suggestions?

She's pooped  I have put those couple of night battles down to her not being finished and me breaking the latch.  I am paying more attention now to her suck and swallow rather than the clock and we seem to be doing better.  We had one night where she broke the latch herself, she started to wind up but I said her name and told her it was sleepy time now and she actually listened to me  she lay down and 5 or so minutes later I left.  Progress?!?

[cath~]

I am paying more attention now to her suck and swallow rather than the clock and we seem to be doing better.  We had one night where she broke the latch herself, she started to wind up but I said her name and told her it was sleepy time now and she actually listened to me  she lay down and 5 or so minutes later I left.  Progress?!?

yes, this does sound like progress - well done!

5 days now of trying to reduce my intervention at nap time and I am no further ahead.  She becomes so worked up so quickly if I remove my hand, to the point of hiccups!  Any suggestions

maybe take it more gradually. eg rather than you whole hand, gradually start reducing the number of fingers on her when you settle her, or the amount of pressure on her, until you can settle her with just you palm, then perhaps just have your hand hovering over her with no contact, and gradually move your hand further away... dyswim?