EMW where am I gong wrong?

[Badgerino]

Morning all,

My LO is 10 1/2 months old and only started sleeping through from around 8 months old. Prior to that he'd been up every one or two hours through the night.

After a lot of routine tweaking and him getting on the move so he was knackered he finally started sleeping 6.30pm - 6am.

About two months ago he decided 5am was awake time. As a result we pushed his morning nap from 9.30 until 10am in a bid to stop the EMW, I also refused to BF until 6am in the hope he wouldn't get used to having his milk at that time. Unfortunately he still thinks a lie in is 5.30.

the last two days he has decided that 4.30 and then 4 were good times to start the day. What am I doing wrong??

Our typical day looks like this:

5.30 (was 4.30 Tuesday & 4am today) awake. I now feed him on waking (BF) (given up on waiting until 6 as it didnt seem to help!) although I wont feed him before 5.
6 - he goes to play with hubby when he gets ready for work and pinch a bit of his breakfast whilst I sleep until 7
7.30 - proper breakfast
9.30 - start nap wind down
10am nap - around an hour
12.30 - lunch
2.15 - start nap wind down
2.30 - nap. This nap is a bit patchy, some days its an hour but recently he struggles beyond 40mins. He was so tired yesterday he woke after 30 mins and I shush patted him back to sleep until 4.
5 - dinner
5.30 - bath
6 - BF anything between half an hour and an hour depending how wriggly or tired he is
6.30- 7 asleep

He will then usually sleep through although the last few weeks we have had the odd wake up as his teeth are bothering him during the night. I can usually get him back to sleep during the night within half an hour with a shush pat and maybe some ibuprofen if he's struggling with his teeth.

The 5.30 starts predated his teeth trouble, and I was hoping to just ride it out and it would be a phase, but it has gone on for far too long and I'm struggling to see the light at the end of the tunnel, especially as he's waking earlier and not later!
I'm currently trying to make bedtime a little later as I go back to work in 5 weeks and won't be collecting him from nursery until 5.30. Last night was the first night of pushing dinner and so on back by 15 minutes. He fell asleep at 7 but was up at 4.

I really can't go on like this much longer, and it will be even worse when I go back to work.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me to try please?

Thanks.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

(((hugs))) for the EWing - I had an early waker for a long time - it's soul destroying.

How is his mood?  Due to the EW he has quite a long first A compared with the rest, so he could be OT now, though it's probably likely that this all started from the 2-1, which may well be what started the EWs in the first place.  My little boy always EW'd through transitions rather than resisting BT...  It might be worth moving that first nap a bit earlier (back to 9.30?), but capping it at 40 minutes for now, and then keeping his second A at around 3hrs 30, and letting him sleep uncapped.  I'd then keep his BT the same as you did last night (so a slightly longer A til BT most likely), and see if that helps.  If you try it for at least 3 days and let me know how those days turn out we can try and figure out if he's UT or OT for any of those naps, and what's going on by bedtime

Here's a link on the 2-1 which you might find useful - From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[Badgerino]

Thank you.

It hadn't even occurred to me that he might be transitioning, I had assumed he was too young for that.

We actually only had one nap today as he totally refused his nap this morning and after 40 minutes of battling him just wanting to crawl around his cot I gave up and we went out. He then slept for an hour and thirty minutes this afternoon.

His mood is generally really good. When he's been up since 5.30 he tends to start getting a bit cranky around 9.30, but is then cheery after his nap regardless of length. He doesn't like to be woken (I have to do it once a week to go swimming, but otherwise leave his AM nap to be as long as he wants, I sometimes cap his PM nap if he sleeps beyond 4pm or he fights BT), but he usually cheers up after a cuddle and is then fine.

The only time of day he often gets grumpy is often after his afternoon nap (whether woken or not), we can sometimes have a bit of a bumpy ride between afternoon nap and bedtime when the only thing that cheers him up is taking the dog out and getting some fresh air.

That link is really useful, thank you!

I think tactic 1 will be a good one for us to try from tomorrow. As you say, AM nap starting at 9.30. He usually sleeps for an hour in the morning, so I'll try capping at 40 minutes.
Then move forward the afternoon nap to start at 2pm to allow for moving the AM nap forward as well as shorter and let him sleep for as long as he wants.
Hopefully the last A time won't be too painful. The dog may be getting a nice long walk at 4pm if it does!

I'll report back in 3 days!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Good stuff, glad the link was useful Let me know how you get on....

[Badgerino]

UPDATE!

I've been capping the morning nap to 40 minutes since Thursday with the nap starting anywhere between 9.40 and 10 depending on how tired he is. Sunday he woke himself after 40 minutes so I didn't have to, but yesterday he woke after 30 minutes and was a rather grumpy boy! But I assume if I'm not having to wake him it means his body clock is adjusting to a shorter morning nap.

The afternoon naps have been a little hit and miss, starting anywhere between 2 and 2.40 depending on how much he fights it. I've noticed that he wakes like clockwork at 3.10, I assume it's because we live around the corner from a school and that's when they all walk past. I wouldn't have expected it to wake him as we have white noise on in his room to combat it. The first three days I went in at 3.10 and settled him back down with a shush pat the last two days he has had a little moan and squeak and settled himself back down until around 3.30/3.45.

On Friday he slept until 4.20 and then BT was horrific and he was wired until 8.30pm! I won't be letting him sleep past 4 again!!

Anyway, the EW....

We've had:
Thu 5.40 am
Fri: 5.30am
Sat 5.30am
Sun 4.50am 
Mon 6am 
Tue 4.50 

Yesterday I was starting to think things were improving, I can live with a 6am start, then this morning knocked all the wind out of my sails. I did manage to BF him back to sleep until 6.50, but I don't want to be doing that every morning!

We've also been in a cycle of NW as well. Typically in the middle of the night, so anywhere between 11 and 2. When he's OT he tends to wake a lot in the beginning part of the night, so I don't think its that. OH is quick to blame teething and I think there is an element of truth in that, but he's been struggling with his teeth for weeks and weeks, I don't like to keep giving him ibuprofen in the night.

Last night when I went in around midnight he was really fidgety and did keep moaning and moving his head (he is a tummy sleeper) and just couldn't seem to get his face comfortable so I did give him some teething gel and a little ibuprofen but I hate doing it. It feels like we are having to "drug" him every night to get him to sleep and he still isnt sleeping through so I feel like we are medicating unnecessarily if that makes sense.

Any words of wisdom on next steps will be gratefully received. In the meantime we are going to keep on with the 40 minute morning nap and hope that something clicks for him soon!

[Badgerino]

Me again - it just occurred to me to double check...

Am I doing the right thing in getting him to sleep beyond 45 minutes in the afternoon nap? This afternoon's nap started at 2.15 and he woke at 3. I settled him back down and have now left him to carry on sleeping by 3.10ish. He was still tired and I know I will have a super grump on my hands if I let him get up.

I just started wondering as isnt the whole 2 to 1 nap theory around EMW due to him not needing as much daytime sleep? At the minute he's having 40 minutes in the morning then at least an hour in the afternoon, but usually more like 80 or 90 minutes once I've resettled him after he wakes at 3.

Thanks!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

If he's fighting his afternoon nap after a 40 minute AM nap, I wonder if he could do with a shorter AM nap?  What do you think?  You could try capping to 30 minutes but keeping the second A time the same.  This should make him more tired for the second nap.  If you do it and he sleeps longer / settles better after a few days then you'll know it's working - if not then you could try slightly increasing that second A time by 10 minutes and then see where you are.  WRT amounts of daytime sleep, the aim would be to get a long nap in somewhere, and keep capping the short one.  So I'd say it's good that he's sleeping for more than 45 minutes somewhere in the day. 

Did you do anything different on Sunday that you can see which gave the later WU on Monday?  Or did he just have a longer day than usual cos of the EW Sunday morning?

Teething can definitely cause NWs, and I can understand your reluctance to keep giving meds.  My two have been very quick teethers - both had all their teeth by 20 months - which meant we were almost permanently having teething problems.  You could try dream meds (like a dream feed but you give meds in their sleep at 10ish) to see if that helps?  If it stops the NWs then you'll know they're teething related, otherwise they could be developmental, or routine related?

[Badgerino]

Let's see... what happened Sunday...

Up at 4.50 (boo...)
Napped for 35 minutes from 9.50 without me needing to wake him.
Afternoon nap for 80 minutes without me needing to resettle him.
Then a slightly earlier bedtime than he has been having this last week as he was asleep by 6.45.
Also Sunday was the only day where he had daddy home all day. Daddy is very exciting and really tires him out!

So total daytime sleep was around 2 hours but it was a very early start and a very active day.

He was also up twice in the night on Sunday night. I didn't give him any meds at bedtime, but he woke at 1.20 and I got him back to sleep by 1.40 and still didn't give him any meds, but then he was awake again and doing his usual head rubbing routine at 1.55 so I admitted defeat and gave him some ibuprofen and he went back to sleep at 2.15 until 6am.

He has typically been a pretty quick teether, we'd have a day or two of unsettled nights then a tooth would pop out and we'd have a few weeks of relative peace before it would happen again. His first 6 teeth popped through without too much drama but nothing has appeared for about 6 weeks but we've had around 4 weeks of acting as if he is teething. So lots of hand chewing, head bashing, ear pulling, head shaking.

I am starting to think it is developmental. His babbling is now starting to include more recognisable sounds and he is starting to try to cruise.

Another thing I've noticed when he wakes in the night is that he has often managed to crawl right to the top of his cot even in his sleeping bag and when I try to soothe him and get him to sleep it is really hard to get him to stay still, he keeps trying to crawl away until he fully calms down. Even then he's still tossing his head about (which is making me wonder about teething still!).

I'm going to try a 30 minute nap this morning and see how we go.

Technically he woke at 6am this morning, but we were up since 2. Last night was a real horror. He fought bedtime - he has been doing this a bit more since changing naps around, Friday he refused to sleep until 8.30! Last night was 7.50 and included a lot of tears!

So after fighting bedtime he then woke at 2, and was so inconsolable I ended up BFing him until 2.45 when he went back to sleep. He was then up at 4, fell asleep at 4.20 to only wake at 4.30, then asleep at 5 and slept until 6. It was not a fun night. We're going to visit my mum today which includes a day by the sea so hopefully some sea air will make him nice and compliant for naps and bedtime tonight!

I can but hope!

Thanks again for the advice and support, it's invaluable!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Oh, that sounds like a rough night.  It does sound like he could do with a bit more A time if he's fighting BT, and had a better night after a longer busier day on Sunday.  I'd take it slowly though if he's teething or got developmental stuff going on. The prolonged teething could be molars moving? That went on for weeks for us. But there's probably no harm in trying some routine changes to see if that helps.  You can always go back if it doesn't work.

Let me know how you get on with a 30 minute nap

[Badgerino]

Well it's day 10 of capping the am nap and night times are if anything getting worse.

We have had a couple of later mornings, but that is because he is waking at 4 and I am feeding him and he then goes back to sleep until around 6.30. I don't like doing it but I have felt I have had to for my own sanity as every time he is up in the night it's now for an average of 1.5 - 2 hours a time.

Most nights since starting making changes ten days ago he is up once, the last few nights it has been twice and then last night it was three times.

I have no idea what is going on!

He is awake for so long as he is so fidgety. He puts his head on one side, then turns it the other way. I just think I've gotten him off to sleep and then he fidgets again and we start all over.

When waking each time he is very upset. Last night he woke at 9.30 so my husband went into him and LO majorly kicked off. Real ear splitting screams. Normally he settles a lot faster for his dad, but the screams only subsided when I went in. That combined with him following me around the house and yelling if he can't see me is making me suspect SA.

I ended up having to pick him up and give him a cuddle (normal NT rules are no pick ups and just soothe him in his cot) as he was really distressed. Once he calmed down I put him back down and eventually got him to sleep by murmuring to him and stroking his head. Shush pat didn't seem to work as he kept trying to wriggle away. He kept drifting off then fighting it at the last minute but calming as soon as I whispered to him to reassure him I was still there.

It took just under 2 hours to get him to sleep.

We repeated this at around 2.30. He went back to sleep after about an hour this time, but was then awake at 4.30 when I BF him and he slept until 6.30.

This has been pretty typical for the last week/ten days. He has been increasingly trying to crawl away when shush patting him during that time.

I'm a zombie!

Do you have any insights or suggestions please?

I'm really worried about falling back into old bad habits, especially with picking him up during the night and the BF at 4am.

I'm also second guessing my BT approach and wonder if I've been putting him down too far gone into sleep. I usually BF until drowsy, then burp him (usually makes him wake a little) then pop him down sleepy, if he is asleep I'll give him a little jiggle or blow in his face until he stirs then shush/pat him to sleep. I wonder if I've been allowing him to go down too far gone asleep as when I jiggle/blow he just rolls onto his belly. I've been doing that for a while including weeks where he was sleeping through fine, so I don't think I've changed anything with the BT routine for weeks and weeks. But I suppose it isn't truly getting him to settle by himself.

Our typical day is currently looking like this:

Awake for the day anytime between 5am and 6.30
Short BF (if had a BF at 4 to get him to sleep until 6.30)
Breakfast 7.30
1st nap around 10am for 30 minutes (having to wake him to cap the nap) BF to drowsy then down & shush/pat
lunch 12.30
2nd nap around 2pm for at least an hour. He often wakes at 3 and I shush/pat or cuddle (depending on how disturbed he gets when he wakes) until at least 3.30 or we'll have total meltdown by 5! We BF until drowsy for this nap too. I wake him if he sleeps until 4 as anything beyond 4pm makes BT a battle.
Dinner 5.20, bath & wind down 5.45
Then asleep between 6.45 & 7.30 after lengthy BF.

The BF to drowsy wasn't a problem as he had been sleeping through until 2 weeks ago (albeit we suffered with EW) but I'm now doubting everything!

Since I've started thinking an element of SA might be involved (so the last 2 or 3 days) I've been trying to use the carrier more so we can have lots of cuddles to help him feel more secure during the day. Not that it seems to make a difference to night times!

In good news he isn't fighting naps at the moment and hasn't fought BT since moving to a 30 minute am nap a week ago. It's just those pesky NW that are plaguing us now.

Sorry for the essay, I'm just in a total muddle as to how to address these NW and have typed out a total brain dump. I keep hoping it is just a phase that will pass, but I'm so paranoid about falling into accidental parenting and going back to the dark old days of him waking all the time!

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far!

[Badgerino]

Me again. He's woken hysterical. Husband is with him for the last 30 mins and he keeps nearly settling then escalating again.

Is it coincidence this has only happened since tweaking the routine during the day?

Right now I wish we could go back to 5 am starts. That was a picnic compared to this. I hate to see him so upset. Today was awful for the afternoon nap as well.

We had 30 mins of sleep then an hour of screaming inconsolably.

I feel like it's all my fault for changing things. Is there any point in going back to letting him sleep whenever he likes for as long as he likes during the day?

Help!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Oh no,  I'm sorry you're having such a hard time at night If it's gotten worse after capping the morning nap I'd go back to a longer AM nap and shorter A times and see if that helps, aiming for something like the EASY in your first post, just to let him catch up. Then we can see if it helps or not and go from there. It may be that teething has made him more tired and that's coincided with more A time in the wrong sort of way! Or just that the new routine didn't suit him.  One thing to bear on mind on that is that if you do a shorter AM nap you'd normally move it earlier to avoid OT.  I know we talked about a capped nap at 9.30 rather than 10 - has that been working at all or was the routine you posted earlier with a nap at 10 a one off?

With the teething, are you still avoiding giving meds? That could be playing a part too - I know we had lots of sleep issues with molars, which went on for a long time.  Have you tried an amber teething necklace / anklet if you don't want to give meds?

The feeding til drowsy could be complicating things too, but seeing as the nws started after a routine change I'd try going back on that first rather than changing anything there for now 

And finally, take a deep breath and some (((hugs)))! I know exactly where you are - my son used to have 1.5-2hr nws too. It's awful that feeling when they wake in the night and you're already calculating how long it'll be before you're back to sleep again.  I'm holding your hand and here with ideas / things to try X

[Badgerino]

Thank you.

After an awful start last night was actually better! He woke at 9, but husband managed to get him to sleep by 9.45, but then woke him by making a racket closing his door! I then got him to settle again by around 10.15 and he slept through until 5.30. To me that is a massive success.

We've discussed it this morning and agreed to give the new routine two more days to see what happens.

The morning nap has been around 10 on the days where I get him to sleep until 6.30, but thinking about it you are right I probably should have stuck to 9.30 as he would have been very tired from all the NW anyway.

So today I tried to put him down at 9.30, but he wanted a super long BF and was just a bit fidgety so it ended up being closer to 9.45 and then he woke naturally after 30 minutes. I'm going to bring his afternoon nap forward to 1.30 (assuming he cooperates of course!) and see what happens.

Wish me luck!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, good luck!  It sounds like hour husband is really on board too, which helps massively. Let me know how you get on x