13 months, STTN but doesn't go to sleep independently, PU/PD help?

[evwright]

Hi, sorry this is so long and hope someone can help.

LO is 13 months and due to reflux (now grown out of), a stressful house-move, illness and teething has never fallen asleep independently. His sleep has been awful until the last month or so, multiple NW, usually ending sleeping in our bed, resisting BT and naps, short naps etc etc. Then something changed and he started STTN. We now get about 10 to 10.5 hours per night - usually all in one stretch and he takes 2 naps most days - night sleep is the same if he only gets 1 nap, but we don't think he's ready to transition. We know he is probably still not gettying quite enough total sleep, but it is so much better than it was.

As he STTN we know he must be able to re-settle himself to sleep when he wakes up. A few nights ago he seemed to be struggling to settle in my arms so I laid him down in the cot - he took about 20 minutes, but he settled himself with a few words and a hand on his back. The night after I did the same thing, a couple of times he started to get frustrated that he couldn't go to sleep and I picked him up and then PD again. It took a while, but he took himself off to sleep again. The third night he couldn't settle and started to get upset so I had to pick him up numerous times and in the end he fell asleep in my arms before he calmed enough to lie down so I just put him down. Tonight he had a brief attempt at going to sleep then became very upset. I tried just lying him down, but he was fighting that physically and got to the point where he was so upset I picked him up. After a few rounds of PU/PD he was just getting more upset until he was sick, then he fell asleep in my arms really quickly. I put him down and he fussed a tiny bit, but stayed asleep.

Where do I go from here. It seems as if when he can't get to sleep and gets upset nothing I do sooths him in the cot, but PU/PD doesn't seem to calm him and I don't want him so upset that he is repeatedly sick. When he pulls himself up he won't lie down again by himself - he either bounces or cries. He is mainly spirited/touchy and I know he may be getting over-stimulated by PU/PD and my presence.

The plan was to try to get him to sleep independently at bed-times, then for any NW and then naps on the basis that he doesn't get enough sleep overall to be able to lose much. Doees this seem sensible? Any ideas on how I can soothe without over stimulating him - or if a different approach altogether may be better suited?

I am chronically Ill and although I have read through the threads and stickies on PU/PD, how to start/ age adaptations etc I find it very difficult to put the info. together and am feeling a bit lost. Can someone to talk me though things step-by-step and offer a little bit of hand-holding if possible?

Thanks

[Haribo2012]

Hi there, sorry your not well.

Have you thought about trying gradual withdrawal or walk in walk out now LO is a bit older?

What does your day look like, times of naps WU/BT etc? Any teeth moving about?

Sorry for the questions just helps us get a better picture x

[evwright]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. He has just cut two teeth and had a cold, but seems fully better. We had intended to put off ST for a little while and it was only because of the first two nights where he put himself to sleep in the cot without getting upset that we thought we would try and continue at this point.

When there aren't teeth and runny noses in the way he typically gets 10 - 10.5hrs at night and 2 hours in naps - this is so much more than he was getting up until a couple of months ago. However, when we get NW the first one he goes back down easily in arms and transfers to the cot - after that he starts struggling to settle and ends up in bed with us.

Yesterday was fairly typical - he needs 4 hours first A to get a good nap - any shorter and we get 40mins followed by grumpiness :-(  The second nap has been fought on and off for a while, he has had some days with only 1 nap, but I don't think he gets a long enough night to only have one nap consistently - I think he would just build OT. Also, if he has just the one nap he tends to fall asleep during his bt feed and gets incredibly worked up if then woken. He has never got a good nap for the second one so we have kept the first nap as the longer - now capping at 1.5hr (although he often wakes at or just before) unless it looks like a one nap day and then we let him sleep as long as he wants. The shortish nights have ended up with very late bedtimes, but we didn't want to try and change too many things at once - he settled on midnight for BT for a long time  It seems almost as if there aren't enough hours in the day for his A time plus naps and a long night's sleep.

Yesterday
WU 9.00am
Nurse
Solids
Snack
Nap 1.10 - 2.40pm
Nurse
Solids
Snack
Nap 6.40 - 7.10pm
Solids
Shower
Nurse
Asleep 11pm (this would have been 10.30pm if I had let him go to sleep in arms as usual)

Today so far
WU 9.20am
Nurse
Solids
Snack
Nap 1.20pm - still there at 2.20pm so will probably be 1.5hrs

We haven't tried any other method yet as we know that he usually gets so upset if left in the cot - if it is more age-appropriate and may give better results we are willing to try anything though. It does seem very difficult to soothe him in the cot, but he falls asleep in arms so quickly that PU/PD may be very difficult and another method may well be better.

Wow this has ended up long again - hope the info helps x

[Haribo2012]

Is possibly try getting rid of second nap and pushing first one a tiny bit later then an EBT.

Some LO just don't need as much sleep as others, my DS was really a 2 hour nap and 10.5 hour night guy at that age. We used to do WU 6.30 nap 11.30 for 2 hours then BT 7-7.30pm then it all just moved gradually later. If nap was rubbish I'd do 20 min CN around 3.30pm.

If you try a 1 nap day then leave nap uncapped like you've said and aim for a 12 hour day to start with just to keep OT away. Fwiw there is lots going on at this age so NW were a on and off for us, especially with teeth moving about, SA and developmental leaps...phew poor things brains must be on overdrive. x

[evwright]

It may be worth transitioning to me nap as he does seem to cope OK with longer A times. Would you suggest doing that first and then sleep training or trying both at once?

[Haribo2012]

You might find on one nap that he settles better as his A time gets longer and is more ready for sleep. I do both at once personally x

[evwright]

Thanks, any advice as to which ST method may work at this age? We can be consistent as long as we feel we are doing something appropriate and that we are doing it correctly - he was getting so worked up with PU/PD it just feels wrong.

[Haribo2012]

You could try walk in walk out or gradual withdrawal

Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE) X

[evwright]

For GW, how do I deal with him pulling up and bouncing or when he gets very upset? I'm just not quite sure what to do as it seems aimed at a baby who is lying down and just can't get to sleep - or am I just missing something obvious?

[Haribo2012]

GW is often for LO that haven't been independent sleepers, you would use your voice mainly to calm and use sleepy phrases.

You could sit next to the cot and pat the mattress and say sleep time now lay down or whatever you want to say. Once laid down I would just say "that's it sleepy times just rest now" and basically repeat repeat. Then after a few days you would just use your voice but sit a bit further away and keep going till you get out the door. If he gets upset you could just give his back a little rub and keep the calming words so he knows your still there.

With WI/WO you would keep going in saying your sleep phrase then leaving the room, repeat etc.

It depends on how your LO is with you in the room. Do you think the messing about is OT/UT behaviour?

My DS didn't respond well to WI/wo it got him a bit hyper but was fine if I sat in the doorway just saying good boy sleep time lay down etc.

[evwright]

I think that as he has never slept independently leaving the room would really upset him. Tonight I was just going to let him go to sleep in my arms after having such a bad couple of nights, but he asked to go into the cot so I went with it thinking I would just pick him up again if he got upset and not push things. It took just over 30 minutes, but he only asked to be lifted out of the cot once and didn't get upset at all. I just kept rubbing his back and he kept holding my hand. It's the first time he had ever stood up and then laid back down himself, so although it took a while and he played a bit I think that was in part due to a late nap and just needing more time to wind down. He only had 3hrs A from last nap to going into the cot. I think GW when he is like that would work really well - it is just identifying what is going wrong on the nights where he gets really upset to try and stop the total meltdown that I had the other night.

I'll check out the transition stickies to see what might work well in dropping to one nap, but would you go for alternate days or just using ebt where necessary? Also, how did you manage to get cat naps a couple of hours after waking from a rubbish nap? I really do appreciate the thoughts and advice x

[Haribo2012]

That sounds like a good BT, I'd stick with that for a couple of days and try GW.

For us a CN was only ever successful if I went for a strategic drive or walk with buggy...often used to coincide with a trip to supermarket so the noise would rouse him.

I was a fan of EBT but sometimes it's just not possible so I'd go with the flow a bit. But my DS has been to bed as early as 5.30 on nap dropping and slept till 6-6.30am.

If your LO tacks on it might be worth a try.

Definitely join in on the 2-1 nap thread you'll get lots of support from posters in same situation.
Support Thread for 2-1 Nap Transition cont'd pt 6
x

[evwright]

Last night was a good BT and tonight was even better. I didn't have to lift him up at all - he came for a few cuddles, played a bit and then just got really quiet and went to sleep with me just sat next to the cot. Unfortunately he was in a really silly position and woke when I moved him, but re-settled again easily so it took less than 30min in total. I think GW should work well for us if he continues like this as he already seems to get to a point where he doesn't want any physical ccontact to settle. I'm so glad for your advice and not continuing with PU/PD as it seemed to make things so much worse and was obviously just too stimulating.

I'll have a good look at the 2-1 boards. We stuck with two naps today as the first wasn't long enough to get him through even to an EBT - he got 1hr40 for the first and we woke him at 40minutes for the second. A lot of people seem to delay the transition as long as possible - is it worth us capping the first nap at an hour to preserve the second nap or do you think we are best to just work towards extending the first A time to try and ensure a single good long nap?

[evwright]

I guess it has taken us so long to get a night's sleep and naps without massive resistance that I'm a bit nervous of rocking the boat too much so I'm very tentative about the next step x

[Haribo2012]

Great going sounds like he's happy for you to just be there. It's really up to you on the naps hun, I personally just went with the AM long nap as I knew I could push DS a little in the morning and get a decent nap then I could be out and about later on. I probably wouldn't cap at this age, but if you feel he responds better with longer pm nap then give it a go....you can always change it round.
Some LO hold on to 2 naps till 18 months there isn't any hard and fast rule, just be guided by him a little. If you feel the day is getting too long or BT there is lots of faffing or resistance then you think about capping the second one.

I think your day of 1.40 nap then 40 min second nap was a good day. We did it that way for quite a while until the day was getting too long.

Do what your feel comfortable with, but the more consistency the easier things will get (in theory lol) x