13 months, STTN but doesn't go to sleep independently, PU/PD help?

[evwright]

Hi, sorry this is so long and hope someone can help.

LO is 13 months and due to reflux (now grown out of), a stressful house-move, illness and teething has never fallen asleep independently. His sleep has been awful until the last month or so, multiple NW, usually ending sleeping in our bed, resisting BT and naps, short naps etc etc. Then something changed and he started STTN. We now get about 10 to 10.5 hours per night - usually all in one stretch and he takes 2 naps most days - night sleep is the same if he only gets 1 nap, but we don't think he's ready to transition. We know he is probably still not gettying quite enough total sleep, but it is so much better than it was.

As he STTN we know he must be able to re-settle himself to sleep when he wakes up. A few nights ago he seemed to be struggling to settle in my arms so I laid him down in the cot - he took about 20 minutes, but he settled himself with a few words and a hand on his back. The night after I did the same thing, a couple of times he started to get frustrated that he couldn't go to sleep and I picked him up and then PD again. It took a while, but he took himself off to sleep again. The third night he couldn't settle and started to get upset so I had to pick him up numerous times and in the end he fell asleep in my arms before he calmed enough to lie down so I just put him down. Tonight he had a brief attempt at going to sleep then became very upset. I tried just lying him down, but he was fighting that physically and got to the point where he was so upset I picked him up. After a few rounds of PU/PD he was just getting more upset until he was sick, then he fell asleep in my arms really quickly. I put him down and he fussed a tiny bit, but stayed asleep.

Where do I go from here. It seems as if when he can't get to sleep and gets upset nothing I do sooths him in the cot, but PU/PD doesn't seem to calm him and I don't want him so upset that he is repeatedly sick. When he pulls himself up he won't lie down again by himself - he either bounces or cries. He is mainly spirited/touchy and I know he may be getting over-stimulated by PU/PD and my presence.

The plan was to try to get him to sleep independently at bed-times, then for any NW and then naps on the basis that he doesn't get enough sleep overall to be able to lose much. Doees this seem sensible? Any ideas on how I can soothe without over stimulating him - or if a different approach altogether may be better suited?

I am chronically Ill and although I have read through the threads and stickies on PU/PD, how to start/ age adaptations etc I find it very difficult to put the info. together and am feeling a bit lost. Can someone to talk me though things step-by-step and offer a little bit of hand-holding if possible?

Thanks

[Haribo2012]

Hi there, sorry your not well.

Have you thought about trying gradual withdrawal or walk in walk out now LO is a bit older?

What does your day look like, times of naps WU/BT etc? Any teeth moving about?

Sorry for the questions just helps us get a better picture x

[evwright]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. He has just cut two teeth and had a cold, but seems fully better. We had intended to put off ST for a little while and it was only because of the first two nights where he put himself to sleep in the cot without getting upset that we thought we would try and continue at this point.

When there aren't teeth and runny noses in the way he typically gets 10 - 10.5hrs at night and 2 hours in naps - this is so much more than he was getting up until a couple of months ago. However, when we get NW the first one he goes back down easily in arms and transfers to the cot - after that he starts struggling to settle and ends up in bed with us.

Yesterday was fairly typical - he needs 4 hours first A to get a good nap - any shorter and we get 40mins followed by grumpiness :-(  The second nap has been fought on and off for a while, he has had some days with only 1 nap, but I don't think he gets a long enough night to only have one nap consistently - I think he would just build OT. Also, if he has just the one nap he tends to fall asleep during his bt feed and gets incredibly worked up if then woken. He has never got a good nap for the second one so we have kept the first nap as the longer - now capping at 1.5hr (although he often wakes at or just before) unless it looks like a one nap day and then we let him sleep as long as he wants. The shortish nights have ended up with very late bedtimes, but we didn't want to try and change too many things at once - he settled on midnight for BT for a long time  It seems almost as if there aren't enough hours in the day for his A time plus naps and a long night's sleep.

Yesterday
WU 9.00am
Nurse
Solids
Snack
Nap 1.10 - 2.40pm
Nurse
Solids
Snack
Nap 6.40 - 7.10pm
Solids
Shower
Nurse
Asleep 11pm (this would have been 10.30pm if I had let him go to sleep in arms as usual)

Today so far
WU 9.20am
Nurse
Solids
Snack
Nap 1.20pm - still there at 2.20pm so will probably be 1.5hrs

We haven't tried any other method yet as we know that he usually gets so upset if left in the cot - if it is more age-appropriate and may give better results we are willing to try anything though. It does seem very difficult to soothe him in the cot, but he falls asleep in arms so quickly that PU/PD may be very difficult and another method may well be better.

Wow this has ended up long again - hope the info helps x

[Haribo2012]

Is possibly try getting rid of second nap and pushing first one a tiny bit later then an EBT.

Some LO just don't need as much sleep as others, my DS was really a 2 hour nap and 10.5 hour night guy at that age. We used to do WU 6.30 nap 11.30 for 2 hours then BT 7-7.30pm then it all just moved gradually later. If nap was rubbish I'd do 20 min CN around 3.30pm.

If you try a 1 nap day then leave nap uncapped like you've said and aim for a 12 hour day to start with just to keep OT away. Fwiw there is lots going on at this age so NW were a on and off for us, especially with teeth moving about, SA and developmental leaps...phew poor things brains must be on overdrive. x

[evwright]

It may be worth transitioning to me nap as he does seem to cope OK with longer A times. Would you suggest doing that first and then sleep training or trying both at once?

[Haribo2012]

You might find on one nap that he settles better as his A time gets longer and is more ready for sleep. I do both at once personally x

[evwright]

Thanks, any advice as to which ST method may work at this age? We can be consistent as long as we feel we are doing something appropriate and that we are doing it correctly - he was getting so worked up with PU/PD it just feels wrong.

[Haribo2012]

You could try walk in walk out or gradual withdrawal

Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE) X

[evwright]

For GW, how do I deal with him pulling up and bouncing or when he gets very upset? I'm just not quite sure what to do as it seems aimed at a baby who is lying down and just can't get to sleep - or am I just missing something obvious?

[Haribo2012]

GW is often for LO that haven't been independent sleepers, you would use your voice mainly to calm and use sleepy phrases.

You could sit next to the cot and pat the mattress and say sleep time now lay down or whatever you want to say. Once laid down I would just say "that's it sleepy times just rest now" and basically repeat repeat. Then after a few days you would just use your voice but sit a bit further away and keep going till you get out the door. If he gets upset you could just give his back a little rub and keep the calming words so he knows your still there.

With WI/WO you would keep going in saying your sleep phrase then leaving the room, repeat etc.

It depends on how your LO is with you in the room. Do you think the messing about is OT/UT behaviour?

My DS didn't respond well to WI/wo it got him a bit hyper but was fine if I sat in the doorway just saying good boy sleep time lay down etc.

[evwright]

I think that as he has never slept independently leaving the room would really upset him. Tonight I was just going to let him go to sleep in my arms after having such a bad couple of nights, but he asked to go into the cot so I went with it thinking I would just pick him up again if he got upset and not push things. It took just over 30 minutes, but he only asked to be lifted out of the cot once and didn't get upset at all. I just kept rubbing his back and he kept holding my hand. It's the first time he had ever stood up and then laid back down himself, so although it took a while and he played a bit I think that was in part due to a late nap and just needing more time to wind down. He only had 3hrs A from last nap to going into the cot. I think GW when he is like that would work really well - it is just identifying what is going wrong on the nights where he gets really upset to try and stop the total meltdown that I had the other night.

I'll check out the transition stickies to see what might work well in dropping to one nap, but would you go for alternate days or just using ebt where necessary? Also, how did you manage to get cat naps a couple of hours after waking from a rubbish nap? I really do appreciate the thoughts and advice x

[Haribo2012]

That sounds like a good BT, I'd stick with that for a couple of days and try GW.

For us a CN was only ever successful if I went for a strategic drive or walk with buggy...often used to coincide with a trip to supermarket so the noise would rouse him.

I was a fan of EBT but sometimes it's just not possible so I'd go with the flow a bit. But my DS has been to bed as early as 5.30 on nap dropping and slept till 6-6.30am.

If your LO tacks on it might be worth a try.

Definitely join in on the 2-1 nap thread you'll get lots of support from posters in same situation.
Support Thread for 2-1 Nap Transition cont'd pt 6
x

[evwright]

Last night was a good BT and tonight was even better. I didn't have to lift him up at all - he came for a few cuddles, played a bit and then just got really quiet and went to sleep with me just sat next to the cot. Unfortunately he was in a really silly position and woke when I moved him, but re-settled again easily so it took less than 30min in total. I think GW should work well for us if he continues like this as he already seems to get to a point where he doesn't want any physical ccontact to settle. I'm so glad for your advice and not continuing with PU/PD as it seemed to make things so much worse and was obviously just too stimulating.

I'll have a good look at the 2-1 boards. We stuck with two naps today as the first wasn't long enough to get him through even to an EBT - he got 1hr40 for the first and we woke him at 40minutes for the second. A lot of people seem to delay the transition as long as possible - is it worth us capping the first nap at an hour to preserve the second nap or do you think we are best to just work towards extending the first A time to try and ensure a single good long nap?

[evwright]

I guess it has taken us so long to get a night's sleep and naps without massive resistance that I'm a bit nervous of rocking the boat too much so I'm very tentative about the next step x

[Haribo2012]

Great going sounds like he's happy for you to just be there. It's really up to you on the naps hun, I personally just went with the AM long nap as I knew I could push DS a little in the morning and get a decent nap then I could be out and about later on. I probably wouldn't cap at this age, but if you feel he responds better with longer pm nap then give it a go....you can always change it round.
Some LO hold on to 2 naps till 18 months there isn't any hard and fast rule, just be guided by him a little. If you feel the day is getting too long or BT there is lots of faffing or resistance then you think about capping the second one.

I think your day of 1.40 nap then 40 min second nap was a good day. We did it that way for quite a while until the day was getting too long.

Do what your feel comfortable with, but the more consistency the easier things will get (in theory lol) x

[evwright]

Just wanted to say thanks for your advice - it's great to have a different set of eyes on things and just get a bit more confidence that we are heading in the right direction. We are running out of hours in the day so unless we started capping his first nap really short (which has always been the longer one that isn't resisted) I think it is time to transition. Saturday he just took one nap and we did bedtime an hour early, but he slept his usual 10 and a bit hours and woke earlier than usual. Then yesterday he did a nap of 2hr 20min and then slept just over 11 hours last night    We can't remember the last time he had as much total sleep as he has the last 24hrs. I think we will try and put a few 2 nap days in just to prevent OT building up.

We are still rocking to sleep for his nap to make sure he doesn't get OT with the longer wt and did the same for the one nw we have had this week. He didn't want to be picked up at first and was trying desperately to get back to sleep, but just got very upset very quickly, so he went in dady's arms in a couple of minutes instead. He is settling quicker and easier at night with me in the room and no physical reassurance needed, so a few more days I may start sneaking out the door...

May pop back on the thread if we run into problems if that's OK? Thanks again x

[evwright]

Just done a 1hr 10min nap after 5hrs WT - looks like it might be a messy day 

[Haribo2012]

Sometimes it takes a few days to settle when your moving A times, just bring BT forward a little.
I'm glad he's settling better at BT, you could try just going out of the room and saying back in a minute to check on you rather than sneaking out lol.
Your welcome and we are always here to give you support. x

[evwright]

Hi again,

Well we were getting 11hr nights on one nap, but the nap was getting shorter each day, then we had to go away and his whole routine got messed up ending up with less sleep than usual and really unsettled car sleep. Now we are back he has been taking 2hr+ naps the last 3 days, but we are getting NW about 6hrs after BT. One night it was a quick settle, then the second night it took 2hrs - he was quiet and desperately trying to get back to sleep the whole time, but just couldn't quite get there. Last night it took about 30min to get him back down. Do you think it is just build up of OT from being away? He is doing about a 13hr day and has taken his nap anywhere from 4 - 5hrs after wu depending on how tired he seemed (the 4hr was when he fell asleep in his lunch bless him). He has been teething on and off, but it doesn't seem to be the problem.

I realise each LO is different, but what kind of day should we aim for in terms of day length and a times either side of the nap? I get confused because everyone seems to talk in terms of the time of nap and as our day is a good couple or three hours later than most it can be difficult to pull out the info sometimes.

Thanks x

[Haribo2012]

Hi there, it's hard when you've been away but it will come right I'm sure.

We used to do 5 hour A from WU to first nap then if nap was over 1.5 hours a 5.5/6 A to bed I did start pushing nap to mid day at this age to get a more equal A time.

OT NW tend to be easily settled...could be teeth just waking him if he's in lighter sleep.! Do u give meds?

[evwright]

If his teeth are really bothering him we give meds, but he hasn't seemed in discomfort. The night he was up for 2 hours he wasn't grumbly at all or grinding them or anything, nor did he want to play or be messing around, it was just as if he couldn't quite find sleep however hard he tried. Last night was a lot quicker so we'll see what tonight brings x

[Haribo2012]

I guess sometimes we just never know what the NW are about. Sounds like he deals with teething well...my DS was awful lol. x

[evwright]

He's always dealt with teething pretty well, but now does seem to be struggling. We are still having nw. Friday night we had a 10 minute NW that was easily settled (we still APOP all naps and NW). Yesterday he woke at 9.30, had a 2hr nap at 2.40 and then was asleep in arms at 10.30 and into the cot. He woke at 3.45 and wasn't properly back to sleep until after 7 :-(  He will play if allowed, but mainly just lies in arms or cuddles up trying to go back to sleep. He had ibuprofen at 10 so that may have just worn off but he didn't seem in any discomfort. He had a tiny sip of water, but didn't ask to feed at all.

He must be running low on sleep overall, but I expected different behaviour with that. We have been inconsistent with being away and then he was ill so if he has fallen asleep feeding we have put him straight down rather than let him self settle. The progress we made on ss seemed to disappear when we went away and he's a little clingy at BT, but doesn't seem to be full SA.

STTN seems so long ago now. Any ideas? OT/UT, teething, inconsistency? x

[Haribo2012]

Oh hun it's awful when u get long NW, for us that length of NW would be discomfort or UT but that would seem not possible with what you've said.

Is he learning any new skills? x

[evwright]

I can't think that he could be UT as his day length is typically 13hrs and we have had a good number of nw to add in and some shortish naps. We've been sticking to one nap to just try and get some consistency and the days we tried can he just refused even when obviously tired. I don't think he is getting much more ornless sleep than on two naps (apart from thr nights we have long nw). He took a 2.25 nap today so we'll see what tonight brings.

He's already up and walking, but he is getting very vocal so it may be developmental. Typically he slept the best ever as he learned to crawl and walk  I assume we may have to expect a good few weeks of this then? Could be a lot of ebt all round x

[Haribo2012]

It does sound a bit developmental. I'd keep trying EBT if his nap is short but otherwise stick to your 13 hr days.

Sometimes it takes a while for 1 nap to start working well but hopefully it will settle down soon for you. How was the night?

Just so you don't feel alone we've had a week of 5.30am wake ups and the odd NW just because DS has changed rooms at nursery to an older group...he's not upset but must be just be playing on his mind. (We've had 3 months of 6.30am) so feeling tired too! x

[evwright]

We had a bad night unfortunately, he woke at midnight for about 20 minutes, then again at 2.30am and didn't want to go back in his cot so we brought him into our bed for a bit of a restless night all round. Today he only napped for 1.25 hrs. This may sound a stupid question, but for ebt do we just pull forward a set amount on the usual time, give him the expected a time from nap wu (so for today that would be 45 minutes early) or give him a shorter a time than usual - which would be a really ebt? We haven't utilized it much in the past so not quite sure of the best approach. He typically has the longer a after his nap, we are up to 5hrs in the morning, but much longer and he seems to get a bit OT and short nap.

Sorry to hear you've got such early mornings  hope things settle down again quickly at your end. It must be so confusing for them when any change happens x

[Haribo2012]

If we had bad naps and a bad night then I'd keep to a 12 hour day, your nap wasn't too bad so if you feel 30 mins/45 mins early enough then that's fine. If you think he's super OT then you go for a really EBT.
Does he tack on missed day sleep so you know?

I'll live it's a standing joke with hubby and I, when we've had good sleep we always say when's the next rubbish phase due lol. Yes do feel for him as its a lot more grown up and has to be a bit more independent x

[evwright]

We've never managed a good enough ebt to know if he tacks on at night - although when we first switched to one nap he started doing 11hr nights when the naps were usually 1hr30 or less. We only got 2hrs sleep last night before he woke and unusually he was getting upset so we gave him ibuprofen and then I gave him a feed (can't remember the last time we nursed at night) but it still took nearly 4hrs to get him back to sleep. That would have been plenty time for meds to work so I think it must be developmental. So a late start to the day, but we got a fairly good nap of 1hr40min at 4hr30min and should hopefully be able to shoot for a normal BT at 12hrs and hope he starts to catch up on himself.

What does really OT look like at this age? Just want to keep an eye out in case that is where we are headed - not sure how he is still up and running on last night's 8hrs!

They do like to keep us on our toes  x

[Haribo2012]

That's a long time to be awake so I'd defo say meds would've kicked in by then. Long NW for us could be UT but I would doubt that at this age with all that's going on.

All kids deal with OT differently really, my DS would've been very restless at BT legs constantly on the go and lots of tears. With OT NW they are generally easier to settle than UT ones but more upset ones.

They do surprise us, he may we be OT and the short night might make him crash as such and give you a longer night. Any nap transitions can cause a build up of OT so there is some degree of winging it and waiting it out xx