4 Month Old NW and EW. This Mama is Tired!

[theu.s.lees]

Once again, I'm at a loss with DD2. She's pretty easy going and has been doing well with shh/pat for several weeks now for going down and resettling. However, we are still getting NW. When will she STTN?! I know there is a 4 month sleep regression, but it seems like it will be several nights of multiple NW, then back to her regular 1x per night, then back to multiple again. She naps pretty well usually, though I'm trying to figure out the perfect amount of A time. And it seems like she still needs the CN as she's usually up by 3-3:30 from her second nap, which means a CN around 5:15 usually. Or an early BT. But then she's waking up around 5:30/6pm, it seems no matter what I do. I've tried feeding and putting her back to bed, and sometimes that works, but usually she's chatty and awake 15 minutes later. Anyway, her EASY is still being worked on, as it's not a set scheduling, I'm still following cues as her A time is somewhere between 1.5-2hrs during the day (depending on how she naps, or how much activity is going on). A typical day is something like this:

WU/E: 6am
A:
S: 7:45-9:15/9:30
E: 9:30
A:
S:11:30-1:30
E:1:30
A:
S: 3:30 (CN)
BT: 6:30
NW - around 4 am (and then others thrown in half of the time)

Sometimes, it's pushed forward a bit. I will record EAS today and see what I get. But we started the day at 5:45am.

Thanks for the help. I'm so tired!

[Kellyjs]

She should still the CN for a couple of months yet hun. How long is the CN usually?

Do you notice a pattern as to how the day as gone wrt the NW's? Is it a good napping day for example or a bad one? I think a few days of your easy might help us see if there's a pattern xx

[theu.s.lees]

I've recorded that past couple of days (not today as we were out and about and things were more on the fly)

Thursday:
WU/E: 5:45 (tried putting back to bed but she wasn't having it)
S: 7:45-9:35
E: 9:45
S: 11:45-1:30
E: 1:35
S: 2:50-3:30 (CN in Tula during a walk)
E: 3:45
S:5:35-6pm
E: 6:45
S: 7:20 (started at 6:50) - Had to resettle her at 8:20 and 9:30pm
NW - 4am and 6 am

Friday:
WU/E: 7am
S: 9am - 9:45 (tried resettling, but wouldn't go)
E: 10 am
S: 11:35-2:10pm
E: 2:15
S: 4:30-4:45 (in tula on walk to 4 month check up)
E: 5:30 (nurse after 2 pokes)
S: 5:40 - 6pm (walk home from dr)
E: 6:40
S: 8:10 (DH tried putting her to bed from 6:50 on, but wasn't able to get her down. I had a photo shoot, but after I was done came home and put her to bed)
NW - 4am

She was then awake at 6am today (Saturday). As I mentioned, we've been out and about today, but she had a good morning nap in her crib.

Tomorrow should be more settled at home so I can do another day if that helps. I realize she had shots Friday, but they were late so I feel like they shouldn't have messed up the entire day/night.

[Kellyjs]

No I wouldn't have expected that either  hun, they tend to feel the effects a day or so later don't they.

I'm thinking all this CN from the afternoon is causing a bit of OT, wdyt? The reason being is that I wouldn't have expected ENW from OT from the CN to BT usually like it was on Thursday.

It's really interesting she can do nearly 2hrs A after a short nap on Friday too. And after a decent wu on Friday, 2hrs resulted in a UT nap from the looks of it. Shall we look at extending that first A by 10 mins, holding for 3 days and see if that makes a difference? It looks like she can handle higher A times than the average (like mine, so not unusual) xx

[theu.s.lees]

Okay, I will try that. Yesterday was so much better, until the end of the day. And yet, she made it until 5am and went back to sleep after nursing.

Her day was:
NW - 2am (the day before was sort of all over the place as we were out and about, so I didn't record Sunday)
WU/E: 6:30am
S - 8:50-11:20 (resettled at 9:40)
E: 11:30
S: 1:45-4pm (2:50 resettle - I did nurse her here a little bit before putting her back in crib)
E: 4pm
S: 6:30pm
S: 7:30pm (Started at 6:30 for BT, but it was just me and the big kids kept fighting and waking her up just as she was settling)

Then, she slept until 5am!

So should I keep the A times like usual? How would I do BT today? You had said keep that CN, but with timing yesterday, I didn't want her day to end up too long and cause problems either. I do see her last A time is 3.5 hrs, which is way too long, I know. Should I have tried for a CN around 5:30 and then pushed BT a little? Just thinking about today. And how long that A to BT should be again, wanting to keep something similar.

[Kellyjs]

I think the A times are close hun. The fact it's a quick resettle make me think she may only need an extra 5-10mims A added on soon. Or could be OT? How do you feel she is?

I would've binned the CN too yesterday. I'm not a fan of super long days but they do work for some. Me, I like my glass of wine and BW time  . Did you get any OT NW's in the early part of the night? You haven't mentioned it in your easy. It would be amazing if you didn't. Also, after that good night sleep it might be the way to go???

On a day with good naps like you've had there, I too would've tried BT at 6.30pm. Perfect 12-hr day there. Sometimes life does get in the way eh? 

Shall we try holding these A times for a couple of days and see how it pans out? Offer the CN if the naps are rubbish. We have to remember she is only 4mo so dropping the CN is rather early, but if it works, it works. We may find she might start slipping into OT, so keep an eye out ok? Xx

[theu.s.lees]

I'm finding that getting a CN in is sometimes difficult when trying to keep the 12 hour day. So if I give a CN it means she has a shorter A to BT, or it means she's UT for the day if I don't give her one and put her to bed early.

For example, yesterday she was up at 8 for the day (my fault I lost track of time, enjoying a shower and my coffee while ALL THREE kids slept a little bit). She had a nice A time of 2.10 and then took a great nap which I woke her from to keep it at 2 hours. Her second nap, however, I stepped outside and DH didn't resettle her and just got her up so she only napped an hour. Anyway, so then it was 4pm and I was at a loss. I tried to do a CN around 6:15, but she wasn't settling so I gave her a bath and put her to bed by 6:30. Yes, I had OT ENW at 7, 11 and then she was up at 5 for the day.

So then what do I do today? She's at my mom's as it's my workday (once a week) and she never naps quite as well there. But do I try to rush her home to have BT around 5/5:30 to aim for that 12 hr day or just get her a CN around then and push BT to 7 or 7:30? I never can guess what's more important saving the full amount of day sleep, to extend the day, or saving the 12 hour day with an EBT.

[Kellyjs]

Hmm I'd be tempted to do the CN as she's never pulled over a 12-hr night has she? Even just 15mims to get her through. It hard to look at the full picture when you're in it as you're trying to preserve the day, but the last thing you need tomorrow is another 5am wu as you'll have to do the same tomorrow yk? Xx

P.s congrats on the WU's! Bet that was a lovely morning for you xx

[theu.s.lees]

Everything has gone to pot. I'm at such a loss. Now she won't settle with shh/pat anymore. And she's always waking around 45min-1 hr and needing to be resettled. No matter what A time I have. Last night I had a shoot so I was gone for BT. DH tried putting her down for 2 hours and couldn't get her to go down (he said he tried everything, from shh/pat, walking, patting, rocking, baby wearing, swinging in her car seat). When I got home at 9 I had a very tired baby that I ended up nursing to sleep just to get her to sleep. Then today she wouldn't settle for nap. After trying shh/pat for 30 minutes (and even a little pu/pd) she was so upset so I caved and nursed her to sleep. She just wouldn't stop screaming even when I picked her up to calm her. Now we are probably on an OT path for the day today. After a 9pm BT, she was up at 6:30. I didn't get her down for a nap until 8:15a but she was tired pretty early on. Maybe I started too late making settling extra difficult. I just don't know how to have her settle to sleep for DH. He's tried several times and I'm always having to come to the rescue. But I am a photographer and during the summer the light is best as the sun is setting, which means that I'm gone for BT. I'm rambling. I suppose that is what lack of sleep is doing. Plus, I'm feeling trapped at home between her naps and PT my middle child.

[Kellyjs]

Oh sweetie it does sound tough trying to juggle everything. I bet your DH is finding it tough too when she doesn't settle for him either. Huge ((hugs)).

Sounds like we've hit the OT I think I was expecting. Maybe try reducing the A times tomorrow and see if that helps a bit? You'll have time to fit in a CN then too and not make BT too late. I really hope it gets better soon. Some bubbas just crash and have a great nights sleep and all is better again, others like to catch up with their day sleep. Just do what you can to get through this little rough patch xx

[theu.s.lees]

Thanks. How much less A time? Instead of 2-2.25 do like 1.45 or 2? Starting the wind down 10 minutes before that?

[Kellyjs]

Yep I'd aim for 2hrs first thing and see if that helps? Don't want to go too early and cause an UT nap and that make matters worse!

How did yesterday go hun? Xx

[theu.s.lees]

The day was ok. No good crib naps as the first one was short and then we were out and about and then I was feeling sick so I napped with her. Then she went down for bed around 7-7:15 which was a little over 12 hrs. But then she was up at 12:30 and 6 and then 7:45 for the day. I'm just so lost. I'm so tired of being the only one to settle her and if her waking midway thru every nap. Plus the nw. Sorry I'm so whiny. My dD1 is being such a battle for everything and it's taking a toll on me plus lack of sleep and nap battles. I have nothing left to give my kids so I feel like a rubbish mom

[Kellyjs]

You are NOT a rubbish mum hun, actually I think you're rather amazing. Doing all that and the photography too, I'm in awe tbh.

How are the NW's hun? Do you feel they're OT related? It doesn't seem like it since they were in the latter part of the night but I could be wrong.

How's her Abtimes looking today? Xx

[theu.s.lees]

Thanks. It is often hard to step back when you're in the trenches, you know.

I'm not sure what the NW are related to. I thought maybe UT in general. They've settled down a bit, to just once per night. And then I've been able to settle her after a 6am waking to then wake up around 7:30 for the day two days in a row now. That helps. Her NW are usually around 3 am, and yes, I'm nursing her. Should I stop doing that? I forget when to stop night feedings and how to go about that.

Her A times today are 2 hours. The first one I messed up and lost track of time and so I didn't start wind down until 2 hours, so she was OT and woke up after 45-50min, and I couldn't resettle her. I tried for 30 minutes and gave in. I set an alarm for the second one, and started after 1hr 50 minutes. I didn't nurse her at all (yay me) though it was tricky. I put my hands on her and shh'd that seem to work. She's asleep, but I fear that she will still be OT from the shorter nap. We shall see. Hopefully I can resettle her if I do. Not sure how to stop those ew from nap, if it's due to not being able to settle herself or if it is her not having the right A time. I'm still keeping track of EAS so hopefully I can see something after a few days.

[theu.s.lees]

So today, I'm trying to tackle those 40 minute naps. It was such a battle yesterday of trying to resettle, and then having an OT baby. Then I went for a walk with the family to the park and, of course, she fell asleep in the Tula. Which meant she was UT at BT (yet still showing tired signs) so it was a bit of a battle. Then we had a 2am and 5:30 nw.

I set an alarm for her first nap, so that I wouldn't lose track of time and be too late. We did a good long wind down, and then I put her in the crib. I have another alarm set for 35 minutes from her start time to go in to be ready to resettle. We shall see how this goes.

[Kellyjs]

I would definitely still feed at that NW hun, could definitely be hunger still at this age. Tbh that's not too bad at all considering. Once at night is much better than you were getting before, so I'm inclined to think the NW's aren't a prop thing.

Yay go you! I do think the not nursing before naps should help you and your DH settle her better in time.

You didn't say how it went with the 2hr A time after the 45-50mims nap? Was that nap longer hun?mdid you need to resettle?

Remember sometimes this can be purely developmental at this age ok? Short naps are yucky, I lived with them for 8mths, but I'm sure once we crack it, or she gets out of her developmental rough patch it will get better.

Keep a track of the days as you said, including NW's and everything you do to settle before nap,  and during if needs to be resettled. We need to come up with a consistent way of settling her which works with you (apart from nursing) so your DH can replicate it when he's doing BT. This hand on her and sshing could be just the way to go. Eventually you'll be able to lessen that in time, but I really think it's a great place to start. Keep with it ok? And I'm here for you when you need to vent ((hugs)) xx

[theu.s.lees]

Thanks I appreciate it. I know it's a stage and this is the roughest age (or the first of them, I suppose!) between the regression and the growth spurts, etc. The lack of sleep is just starting to wear on me and I'm having such a migraine lately.

So yesterday was better! Better naps. But then NW were abundant. I'm not sure what happened. I'm guessing maybe OT at BT, but it doesn't seem like it could be that. Maybe the A time to BT is too long after a CN.

Monday NW - 2 & 5:30
Tuesday:
WU/E - 7am
A
S - 9 - 11 am (started wind down at 8:40, resettle at 9:33, woke her at 11)
E - 11:15
A
S: 1-2:30 (wind down at 12:45, no resettle!)
E: 2:30
A
S: 4:30-4:55
E: 6:30
BT: 7pm
Resettle - 9pm, 12:30pm
NW (I fed her) - 1pm, 4pm

Is that CN too short then? I was trying to save BT to keep the 12 hour day, but maybe it needs to be longer as she can't do 2 hrs after a CN?

[Kellyjs]

Yep, I'd bet that A to BT was too long hun. I reckon you could stretch that CN to 45mins and still keep BT at 7pm. Wdyt?

This is looking so much better, go you. I knew the NW's were tough yesterday, but the day sleep looks great xx

[mommyDL]

Just read this thread and wanted to say that you are an amazing mom. NOT a rubbish one. I think we all have those moments but the fact that you are so devoted to your child just proves what a great mother you are. Hang in there these things take time. (My LO took three weeks to get on Easy and we are still making tweaks. As they say the only constant is change.)