7mo NW, EW can't settle to sleep by himself just rolls and rolls and rolls...

[NZ_Mum]

I really need some help with DS3!

I don't know where to begin!

He wakes all night long every 2hrs or so. He's not always hungry, I can settle him fairly easily most of the time, except after he's been in bed for 10.5hrs then it's much harder.

I am tied to a double school run for my other two boys, with drop offs in the morning (a 1hr trip around 9) and pickup DS2 at lunchtime and DS1 at 3pm.

I'm so tired! I haven't slept more than 4hrs in a row for 7 months straight. I have all the signs of chronic sleep deprivation.
DH does not help me. We are at odds with which technique to use (even though I have been trying to BW all of them since birth). He thinks CIO is the way, so naturally I've been reluctant to let him take over! He thinks I've set up the situation so just let's me deal with it. We've argued about it - can you tell?

I know I probably have become a prop. When DS3 wakes, he kicks down his heels arches his back and then wriggles up the mattress until he's out of his blankets and swaddle, and then proceeds to roll around grabbing stuff and banging himself on the bars until he eventually gets stuck or starts to cry. I try to leave him to see if he will settle, but this can go on for ages if I let it. I always go to him if he gets tangled or upset.

At night when he wakes I just pick him up, give him a cuddle, tuck any hands in if they seem to be causing trouble and then put him down once I feel he is relaxed (but not fully asleep) then I tuck him in and usually he goes back to sleep well enough. But every 2hrs or so that's a bit tiresome!

On a school day our routine is:
WU anytime between 5:30 - 7:15am.
BF or not depending on when he last fed at night and if I have time or not.
8:30am in car for school run.
9:20am home again he may or may not have fallen asleep by this stage.
If not, get him inside and to bed. BF him to sleep, especially if he didn't have any breakfast.
9:30am Nap
11:30ish WU (sometimes later)
12:15 back in car to get DS2
12:45-1pm home again
1pm lunch
1:30 BF  to sleep
2:40 get him out of bed and back in the car to go get DS1
3:15 home again - playtime
4:30 to 5ish BF and try to get him down for another CN while I make dinner
5:45 WU join dinnertime
8pm BF and BT where I juggle getting all 3 boys into bed as best I can. DS3 often can't settle down while the other two are aping around in the hallway. So sometimes he doesn't get to sleep till 8:30.

Sorry if that's unclear! It's the best I can do right now tired as I am...

I'm not sure if there is much I can do about his routine, stuck as I am with all the driving.
I know I shouldn't be feeding him to sleep, and I know that won't be helping his inability to self settle. But on those days when even our crappy routine is off, (and in the past) he has been able to go to sleep by himself without F2S. Before he started rolling we had a nice period (around 4-5months) when he was going off all by himself every time. No problems.

Sorry if I'm rambling! So tired and feeling lost with what to do.

One good thing is that I now have the opportunity to move him into his own room. Should I do it? Might he sleep better with less disturbances from us (DH snoring lol) or is that just going to unsettle him more, and be more of a pain for me having to go up and down the cold hallway all night?

Ideas or just hugs gratefully received!

[Emami]

Definitely hugs from me. Annabel has hit a new sleep low and is totally unable to resettle herself atm. She is also shuffling around and bashing the bars and getting stuck. I get 1NW rather than frequent but it's always loooooong. I am writing this at 3am between going in and out and repositioning her So, not in a position to five advice but much sympathy and hope these babies behave themselves soon!

[NZ_Mum]

Thanks Emma, nice to know I am not alone

These last two nights I've given him some pain meds (IB) just in case it is teething causing the trouble. The nights have been slightly better. He just wakes, has a feed and goes back to sleep. Still 2 or 3 times but at least that's not every 2hrs!

He was very OT last night at BT. I got him down to bed but then the other boys woke him when they were getting out of the bath. Then it took me till 9:20pm to get him back to sleep. Ugh, long day.
At least he didn't EW this morning!

[weaver]

Oh that's tough!  Particularly looking after two others at the same time!

Hats off for holding out from DH and his CIO recommendation.  (Grrr)  We will support you all the way in NOT doing CIO and if you think DH is in the mood for some education you can point him this way.
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!

First thing I want to say is that if he has learned a new skill, like rolling, you can expect a period of crazy sleep in some babies, who just seem to want to practice, practice,practice all the time. So hopefully some of the craziness might wear off.

Has he any medical issues which might lead to him waking up lots? No reflux or anything? Nothing you say makes me think he has it, but just to check with you.  I notice pain meds helped a bit, that could just be because they helped him feel drowsy.  Do you think there are teeth on the way?

Any chance you can reduce the amount of stuff in his cot that he can get tangled in? And maybe put a bumper on the bars around his head? LO2 used to shuffle up to the bars alot so I put bumpers on there and she didn't wake herself.  Could he sleep in a sleeping bag which would move with him?

With two other LOs in the mix, you are never going to have a "perfect" routine, so the key here is to find one that works for you and DS3. 

Reading your routine, he looks like he's getting lots of daytime sleep.  One two hour nap and another over one hour nap and then a catnap as well?  I would not expect a BT before 8.30, and probably a lot later,  if he's sleeping til 5.45pm. By that age, my LOs both needed to be up by 3.30 or there was no chance of getting them to bed around 7pm.   Most babies drop that CN around 6mos, so he's on the old side for that, and it will definitely be affecting BT as well as possibly the EW.  If you can work out how to get him to bed earlier, I would definitely drop that nap, OR, I would make it informal/a relaxed time by putting him a sling, or playpen if he'll go for that, while you make dinner.  If he drops off for ten mins, fine, but I would not be going crazy trying to make sure he has 30 mins or whatever at that time.

Average A at 6.5/7 mos is 2 hr45 to 3 hrs 15 mins, some babies get more, some less.  If he's up early, he may well need that nap at 9.30 but if he isn't awake til 7ish, I would push the nap towards 10pm, that will reduce the risk of entrenching that EW. 

Part of me suspects he might in fact be UNDERtired (bet you're surprised!) leading to messing about at night and EW.

HTH.  Let's chat some more!

[NZ_Mum]

Thanks Anne! Great to have an opinion and some ideas thrown out there.

I would love to push his morning nap out but with that hour long drive every morning it's highly likely that he falls asleep during it.

This morning he woke at 6:45am and then fell asleep on the school run at 9:15. Then he only slept for 45mins before he woke again. He never sleeps more than a 45 in his car seat.

Then he was up all morning and only starting to seem tired again by the time it was time to get back in the car again at 12. Then he had another 45min nap on the road. Now he's awake again, I've no idea if I should shoot for a third nap in the late afternoon...

Thanks for the support regarding CIO. I only wish DH would read more parenting stuff. He says he's read articles on both sides claiming success/benefits. If only MIL were alive, she would be the only one he would believe on that score and I have no doubt that she never let her 4 CIO. Such a caring empathic lady that she was.

Regarding the bedding situation, I am letting DS3 get used to a portacot/packnplay in his new room. Gets him used to his new room (before it's time to bite the bullet!) and also may be a better bed for him while he's so rolly as there's nothing to bang or get stuck on! Plus I also need him to be used to a portacot for when we go to our holiday house next week.
He has been in a sleep sack, but I also tuck him in with a sheet to try to help him feel secure and stop rolling so much. He's been rolling for months, so its not like this is new...

I'm not sure how to drop the CN and get him to bed early. That would put his second nap bang on school pickup time and he'd always be woken by the older boys going to bed at 8-8:30 anyway.

For the same reason I've had to keep DS2 having a daytime nap long since the time that DS1 went to no nap. When DS1 is awake -everyone- is awake, no choice about it! And as his nights get shorter so does everyone else's...

[NZ_Mum]

Oh meant to say, no reflux or other medical issues. I was thinking the same thing about the meds making him drowsy but was ready to do just about anything just to get a little more sleep myself!
That said, his top gum looks pretty bulgy so bound to be teeth about to emerge from there.

Sometimes when I've fed him to sleep and been unable to burp him properly he'll wake and roll around until I pick him up and allow him to burp, then sometimes he will go back to sleep. My bad I know for feeding him to sleep in the first place. 

[weaver]

My bad I know for feeding him to sleep in the first place.

Hun, you're in a tough spot, please don't feel bad for doing what you can to get you (and him!) some sleep! There's a reason we call is AP-OP!

If you're off on your hols next week, this does not sound like a good time to be trying routine tweaks etc, as I assume sleep will be all over the place anyway.  It might be interesting to see what sleep is like without the school runs, though.

But, for when you get back, let's think about working with the school runs, building on the naps he has at those times.  And if your preferred sleeping time is 8.30 then so be it, that's what we work with.  Scratching my head though as I'm sure that CN is doing you no favours.

Cheeky question then from me  - does he ever get as much sleep as you have written above? 

[NZ_Mum]

Sorry for being confusing! We had school holidays for the last two weeks and a couple of weeks off at the end of last term due to chicken pox. So this is the first week back at school in 4 weeks.

So yes, during the holidays and when we were in the swing of it last term I was getting in those naps I'd posted above. But not this week! Lol.

We go to our holiday house often on the weekends, it's an hour and a half drive so not too far away. We haven't been in a while though what with sickness and DH being busy at work, and me too tired to pack and drive. I don't trust myself being this tired on the open road so have put it off for a couple of months now.

So this I think is as good a time as any to work on routine.
Yesterday he had 3x 45min naps with the last one ending at 4:25 and I had him asleep in bed by 7:30 (and by some miracle the other boys were quiet enough not to wake him.) He woke at 10pm, 1:40am and 4:30am and then slept in till 7.
So that's something to think about I guess. At least there was no EW behaviour.

This morning he fell asleep in the car again but I got him out straight away so he'd only been asleep for about 5mins if that. Now he's not keen to go back to sleep so I'll keep him up fora bit and see if we can get him a nap at about 10-10:30.

[NZ_Mum]

He napped from 10:40 till 11:25 and then was awake again.
Then he was up until 2:10pm when I was able to get him back to sleep. We picked up DS1 from school early so didn't have to go out in the car a third time. (Yay!)
He slept through till 4:40pm! Then I put him to bed at 7:30.

I wish I could maintain a more predictable routine. I'm pretty good at winging it, and I know you kind of have to with 3 and the constant changing factors. But my nature longs for a more predictable daily cycle! Sigh

[NZ_Mum]

Ugh he woke at 10pm, sometime around 2 and then again at 5:30am. I fed him and thought he was going back to sleep but then he pooped and started mucking around. So I changed him and burped him and eventually got him back to sleep by about 6:45am. Then he slept till 7:30 when it was time to get up.

This time he didn't fall asleep on the school run, and so I thought I might try him to nap in the portacot in his room. But he just rolled around and around and around until it was just so late that I thought I better just take him for a long drive before getting DS2 at 12:30. So he basically didn't sleep all morning and now he's sleeping in the car, so not likely to be for more than 45mins.

Sigh. Days like these frustrate me so much. I really need some better sleep to be able to deal with this stuff better. I'm not coping well today.

[NZ_Mum]

Well he slept for an hour on that drive, lucky I had an errand to run.

But it was bad timing as then he was awake again and only getting tired by the time we had to pick DS1 up from school. He fell asleep while we were circling the block (there's never any parks at school) and then got woken by DS1 getting in. That tiny sleep has totally messed him up. It's now 4:30pm and I've been trying to get him to sleep for an hour. He now crying and very tired, but still won't stop rolling and arching his back to inch along the mattress like he always does. Ugh. I'm shattered!

I don't know what to do. I've a splitting headache, a crying OT baby and the other kids are probably eating chocolate biscuits for dinner while I'm not around downstairs...

[NZ_Mum]

Finally! He's asleep in his bed - 5:10pm! Not sure wether to just call that BT for the night or not!
I count about 2hrs sleep total between 5:30am-5:10pm. Poor thing.

Ugh rough day. I'm not looking forward to getting him back to sleep again if he does wake up this evening!

[weaver]

I've a splitting headache, a crying OT baby and the other kids are probably eating chocolate biscuits for dinner while I'm not around downstairs...

Big hugs, hun.  There are days like that, aren't there yuck and triple yuck, as long as they saved some of those biscuits for you!

That tiny sleep has totally messed him up.

They always do!  Nightmare!

I've been trying to get him to sleep for an hour.

I'm thinking it's probably best if you set yourself a cut-off time for these situations.  Apart from anything, YOU will be getting completely stressed out about what else is going on.  I would call it after 20 mins IIWM (tho with LO2 it was pretty clear within 5 mins which way things would go, she was (is) very decisive).  Do you have a sling for these situations? I only have two LOs but I found the sling/carrier a godsend for when everything went screwy. 

Reading back a bit...

Yesterday he had 3x 45min naps with the last one ending at 4:25 and I had him asleep in bed by 7:30 (and by some miracle the other boys were quiet enough not to wake him.) He woke at 10pm, 1:40am and 4:30am and then slept in till 7.

I thought this was pretty good ... but I got the fear when I saw this...

Then he was up until 2:10pm when I was able to get him back to sleep. We picked up DS1 from school early so didn't have to go out in the car a third time. (Yay!)
He slept through till 4:40pm!

A nap from 2.10 to 4.40 *seems* like a good thing but if we look at it, it seems like having three shorter naps evenly distributed through the day was better for him.  As this is also the pattern of your day, given the school runs, I think this is the sort of thing you could aim for. 

My underlying hunch is that you're better off with a baby who's *slightly* OT by the end of the day, than one who's UT. 

Hope you're feeling a wee bit better.  If you've any IRL support there, please make use of it.  You've a lot on your plate, you've got to look after yourself too.

[NZ_Mum]

Yes I think 3 shorter naps was possibly the best solution too.

Yesterday after he fell asleep at 5 he then did wake at 6:40pm
But I eventually got all three to bed by about 8:30-9pm. That's later than I would like but the best I could do given that late, late nap!
Then he woke at 10pm, 2am and 6:15 for feeds and actually did go back to sleep till 7:30. So he was very tired after yesterday otherwise I think he would have been up for the day after the feed at 6am.

The thing with me trying to get him to sleep for ages was that he would almost be asleep and then would get interrupted by the other kids or noises outside etc. I do have a sling and I do put him in it, but he's such a big baby it's hard to wear him for long. And even harder to reach around him lol.  I mean, he's in 9mo clothing and weighs 9.5kg!

Today we are staying home, and grandma is coming over. DH and I have a thing to go to this afternoon and I'm also getting my hair done this morning. Amazing, some me time!

I hope grandma will be ok with all three. Unfortunately her hips and knees are bad and it's hard for her to get up and down all the stairs in our house. And she can't carry baby up or down the stairs, she needs both hands to hold onto the rail. So not sure what she will do with him when he needs a nap this afternoon. He may just have to go without until I get back.

[NZ_Mum]

So he went without a nap all afternoon. I couldn't get him to sleep by the time I had to leave so grandma just had to sit with him while the other 2 watched tv.
At least grandma doesn't believe in CIO
But he was up for a loooonnnngggg time. I got him to sleep when I got back. 5:30pm is pretty darn late for a nap but what else could I do??
Then he woke up and I eventually got him to sleep for the night by 10pm! Ugh.

Hoping that today will be better. I've got no idea whether he's UT or OT though and not sure what A times to shoot for! I'm lost...