40 minute nap.... Don't know what to do?!?

[deb]

I'd go ahead and see if he'll take that snack before naps; I was BFing and offered one breast that that seemed to do it, but couldn't tell you how much - an ounce or two?

If he's taking less than an ounce at that 4AM feed - if that's a regular thing - I'd give him the soother for that one, see if he drops off, since you'll be offering more calories during the day now. If it doesn't work for him, I'm sure he'll let you know. LOL

Shorter naps are often OT...for now jut keep trying each cycle, keep things low-key.

BTW, what's his personality? Many Refluxers are Touchy (Josie certainly was/is! LOL).

[Bella89]

Hi, we had the same issues with BF, my DS was waking up at 5 for his feed and didn't want to eat at all at 7. Do you DF? I am not sure if formula babies can be fed at theyir sleep, but this is what helped as. I would assume if there is 4h since last feed thay can. I started at 4 months. Before my DS was like: BT 7:30, feed 1, and 5am after BT 7:30, DF at 11, feed at 3 or 4 and then at 7 he was hungry again, so that helped.
I know you said he has reflux, but maybe bounce chair the whole A time hurts his back (my DS cant stand car seat for longer than 30min). Try lying him on the floor on his tummy more. Stay with him if he will fight it, try 3min, 5min next etc. But wait 20-30 min after feeding, so maybe bounce chair first and then tummy time.
The next thing is paci. My son is 6 months and we still use it, but shh/pat or PUPD dont go with paci for us. Instead for naps I spend 10 min lying next to him on my bed he needs to see my on his side or tummy) and sing. Then I give him paci and put him in his crib, i hold his hand or put my hand on his chest, he needs to see me, but my head is not over his, but rather at the end of the crib where his legs are. By then he is calm and I leave. At first i had to come back 4-5 times, now its 1 or none.

When children fight naps and wake up early its mostly because you need to push A times some more. It will not fix the situation overnight. When I pushed A times by 20 min, in 10 min increments and started dream feeding, i saw results after 4 days I think.

I hope I helped a little. Im not an expert on reflux, so no ideas there:/

[lauradj]

^^These ladies have pretty said it all!  If he's taking only an 1oz in the middle of the night, he's probably not hungry.  DS2 was still taking 4oz when he just stopped.  30 mins is generally UT, 45 OT.  I don't know how or why that is but it seems to be the system.  It took a week for DS to right himself once I pushed to 2hr so give it some time.  Sorry for the short response, DS1 has a fever.  I'll pop in and keep checking on you!

[BobbysMummy]

Ah sorry I think I typed wrong, he is taking 4+oz for his night feed at roughly 3-5am and then only 1oz for his morning feed at roughly 7am. I've stretched his feeds today to 3.5hrs and it hasn't affected him at all, in that he didn't cry with hunger or anything.

Deb - he is such a touchy baby, very sensitive and very jumpy too. He hates been left alone and I can rarely put him down for any longer then 10 mins before he cries for me.

Bella - again I didn't type properly, he is only in his bouncer for the first part of morning A time, he also has time on a playmat and sometimes tummy time too. I don't DF at the moment, I tried it twice and it resulted in him waking every 2-3 hours for the rest of the night.. This was when he was maybe around 8 weeks. Do you think it's worth trying again? He ready has a paci and it's a great help getting him to sleep, but he spits it out when he is asleep so when he wakes (during the day) at the 40 min mark I try and put it back in but he rarely wants to go back to sleep.

Laura - hope you're DS feels better soon!! Ah, some people are saying to try and extend a time to extend naps. Today he has had A time of roughly 2 hours and still only 40 min naps... So I let him sleep in my arms again this afternoon and he slept for 2 hours... My arm is going to fall off!! I wik keep trying the 2 hour A time f you think it will help, or do you think I should try 1.45?

Thank you ladies,I am so grateful for your help.

[deb]

On my Kindle so will have to get back later for more details but for now if he's sleeping so badly, maybe follow cues and go for more frequent naps for the rest of today (depending on where you are) to try to put him to bed less OT.

Does he sleep better with white noise? We had one for J so that little environmental noises didnt wake her. Reflux and Touchy often go together, as i have learnd.

Might be worth trying the DF again as the 3-month GS is past. I forget the guideline, like 2-3 hours after bedtime? (This happens when your "baby" is 10yo lol.)

Back later.

[weaver]

My LO1 was touchy and he absolutely needed his soother/paci to fall asleep.  I would stick with one.  He also was allergic (ok, nearly!) to OT or OS, so keeping him on a rock solid routine was key, as was a good solid wind-down.  For the first months I basically patted him to sleep and then reduced this gradually, by 5mos he was IS.

He didn't have reflux though. I'm going to post some links on reflux here for you, bear in mind as babies get bigger they need their meds reviewed if based on weight. 
Sleep and the reflux baby.
Reflux 101 - General reflux information

[*Liz*]

^^^^ that was my main reflux thought really. Are the meds still appropriate for weight? Some are very weight sensitive e.g. Zantac. Babies can 'outgrow'  Zantac as well at about 4 months old and need changing to something else.

I am the worst person for advice on night feeds as my children have all had reflux severe enough that they need to be fed on demand, so if my 4 month old woke at 3-5am I would actually just feed on demand for the next feed. I don't base my routine around the E - I form it around their A times and sleep needs and pop the feeds in wherever is suitable. I do feed before naps sometimes as a result, but I have never had a prop issue.

Remember 40 min naps can be pure developmental. My DS1 didn't outgrow them until almost 6 months, my DD was closer to 3 months, and DS2 was about 4 months. It can just be an annoying thing some babies do.

I'm a big fan of white noise as well  .

[Bella89]

Tell me about it, paci is a great help. From experience, id my DS wont take it when he wakes he wont fall back asleep either.

I would try it again. Actually, i think I did too. First time when my DS was 10 weeks and second now when he is almost 6 months. Give it at least 4 days. I know its a husstle at night but in our case resulted in better 7am feed and 1 NF.

its difficult to talk about AP (falling asleep in your arms) when your baby has reflux, but have you tried elevating mattress or triangle pillow? Its like a part of the mattress that you instal?

I would push A times to 2 h, but you have to watch your baby. I found out that the best naps are after third sign ( yawn, eye touching or ear pulling). Thats my rule, every baby is different. In terms of not needing sleep during the day... If your baby gets tired 30min to 1h after waking it means he needs his sleep, if hes not and fights naps, needs more a time. Basically he can go longer without it:) but dont do long A times right away. Increes by 10 min every 3 days. Thats what i did.

Keep us posted. I keep my fingers crossed.

[BobbysMummy]

Evening (UK 7pm),

What a day!!!

I didn't try the DF BuT my DH did make a good (well what I thought was good) suggestion last night... He suggested that when DS wakes between 12-2am as he usually does, why don't we feed then and try giving the paci when we normally feed between 3-5am. So I tried this last night, this is how the last 24hrs ish have looked like:

E - 1.30am, took 4oz
WU - 6am, a little earlier then normal, wouldn't settle so DH got up with him
E - 6.20, took 3oz (not a lot but better than the usual 1 or 2oz at 7am that we used to get
A
S - 7.50, until 8.30 (usual 40 mins)
E - 9.20, took 7oz
A
S - 10.35 until 11.15
A
S - 11.50 until 12.50, this was an AP sleep, I gave in as he was so tired
A
E - 1.30, took 6oz
A
S - 2.50 until 3.30, this was in car seat as I was out and about
A
E - 4.30 took 2oz
A - inc bath
E - 5oz
S - 7.15

So.... No better :-(
As you can see I have A times ranging from 35 mins to 3 hours and 45 mins. I know the 3 hours + A time is too much, but he just wouldn't settle, not even in my arms.

One positive is that he has taken some good calories in today, for him, considering yesterday he took 21oz in 24 hours and today he has taken 27oz.

I just don't know what to do, my mum has been with me the past 2 days and she said she has never known a baby like this (we know all babies are different), but she works with children too. He fights his naps, he only naps for 40 mins but then wakes up smiling, but half an hour later (sometimes longer) he shows signs of tiredness. He otherwise seems like a happy baby now we have reflux under control, I've just uped his meds slightly.

So does anyone have any suggestions? 

I'm winding down up to 10 mins before a nap, this involves going into nursery and changing nappy, poo*ting blinds and putting a lullaby on and having a little cuddle, then putting DS into gro bag in crib. I don't pick up again then as he's never really needed it, yes he does cry a little but nothing that me standing over him and stroking his head and offering paci doesn't resolve.

I've tried sitting in his room to be there when he wakes and try and help him into the next cycle, but when he wakes he's awake and really doesn't want to go back to sleep, I've tried for 15+ mins.

I've offered a light feed before naps to try and fill him up a bit for the nap... Hasn't worked.

Do I just resign to the fact that he is a 40 min sleeper and it might change in the hopefully not too distant future?! Or do I try and preserve with getting him to sleep longer? The frustrating this is is that I know he needs a longer nap, and if I hold him for the whole nap he will nap for up to 2.5 hours.

Thank you ladies... You're keeping me as sane as I can be at this testing time!

[deb]

If you've only just upped the meds, it might be a day or 2 till the higher dose matches what he needs for relief.

Wondering also about a food intolerance. In retrospect, as we've seen Josie react to different foods, it did occur to me far too late that her reflux may have been a dairy intolerance in disguise, as the symptoms can look very alike.

[BobbysMummy]

I've actually considered intolerance too Deb! But my DR is adamant it is reflux. I don't know if these are symptoms of intolerance or just normal; his tummy can make some crazy noises as he starts feeding and he tends to squirm and do kind of sit ups (crunching his tummy), he is very inconsistent with when he wants his feed and how much he wants... I'm sure there are others but I can't even think at the moment.

[deb]

Yeah, that sounds like reflux, with the squirming.

Maybe try the paci again at 3AM and see if it makes a difference....if you really wonder, you can try giving the paci both times at night and see how that impacts both he first feed and subsequent A & S times. Make sure you're keeping him upright long enough after a feed for the milk to get past his stomach to reduce spitting-up; I was always told 10-20 minutes (I went 10-15 depending).

Alternately, you can shoot for 6 of those short naps a day for a few days and try a "reset" after a few days, once the increased med dosage has had a chance to work.

[BobbysMummy]

Well at least he's on meds now and has been so much better, no spit up etc.

So you're suggesting dropping the night feed and trying a paci... See if that helps?

Yeah I might see the rest of this working week out with the 5/6 naps and then try everything again at the weekend when the meds will have had a few days.

Just found out a friend has lost her little boy who is the same age as mine, makes me put things into perspective.

Thank you Deb.

[Bella89]

Im so sorry youre both going through such a difficult time:(
From all signs it seems like he needs longer A times, but if you feel like it cant be done at the moment try implementing more regularity at the moment, it can improve a lot too. Like bring all A times to 2h (+/- 15min) then after 3 or 4 days try 2h 15min. I think 2h is good for now as it was dif for you to keep him awake midday. That first A time is short, so you might want to push that one first.

On formula is he on? 7oz is a lot for one meal i think. I know you fight for every oz, but with reflux too much at once maybe hard on him.

Seems like 1 am feed helped a little, but it takes some time to make him use to new feeding time.
I would try DF at 11, that way after some time ( up to 1 week) he would not wake up at 2, but maybe at 5-6am. With time you would delay that feeding to 7am and he would eat more. Also, if you feed in sleep instead when he wakes by himself he might take more, so ie 6oz instead of 4. Does that make sense?
What if you also try after that 40 min nap give him some low key time with shades down, so he would know its still time to sleep? Keep him in the crib?

I know its a lot of suggestions, but I would try to prioritize like this:
1. Make all A times similar in lenght
2. Make all A times closer to 2h 30min

I look forward for some good news!

[lauradj]

Ugh!  It's so frustrating when you try something new and it makes no difference!  I would like to mention two little titbits. Firstly, many reflux babies don't sleep through the night until much later, simply because they cannot take in enough calories to make it.  When I switched DS2 over to formula, I hoped for this instant miracle of STTN but it took a solid month before that happened.  The second thing is, whatever you choose to do, you need to consistently implement it for a solid week or two before you can actually see if it's working.  Adults can't change in a day and it's unfair to expect babies to do more than we're capable of.
Sit down and decide what you feel is reasonable.  What can you do and what works for you and your baby?  Once you've decided that, stick with it and see how the next week or so progresses.  Take notes, so you don't forget what worked and what didn't.  This is a really challenging time, we're here to support you!