Author Topic: 2-1 nap transition.... Am nap refusal (Read 5536 times)

Kfro · « **on:** July 21, 2015, 10:04:23 am »

Hi,

Just a quick question. LO is refusing am nap/ messing about for an hour before going to sleep when normally he goes straight down. I understand that I should start pushing his am nap back by 10/15 minutes every few days BUT if LO still takes this long to go to sleep after pushing is there any point in holding the new a time for a few days? He will obviously be getting ot by taking this long to go down so should I just keep pushing forward?

Tia

Kellyjs · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2015, 19:03:18 pm »

Sometimes just putting them down 15mims later helps as they don't keep messing about up there and miss the window for sleep yk? Saying that, we had quite radical jumps in the first A time from when DD was between 8-10mo. It actually nearly tripled! As long as I pushed the first A and not the last all was good, but some do prefer the other way round.

Be interested to see your easy and see if I can help tweak it for you. How old is he now? Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2015, 09:41:46 am »

Thank you for your reply

.

He is almost nine months so is on the early side for starting the 2-1. Prior to the am nap problems his easy was as follows:

Wu 6
E 630 (milk) and then 8 (solids)
A 6-940
S 940-1110
E 1110 (milk) and then 1230 (solids)
E 230 (milk)
A 1110-250
S 250-405
E 410 (solids)
E 635 (milk)
A 405-655
Bt 655

I was working on reducing his second nap but he was struggling hence the short a to bed.
Since the am nap problems I have implemented the below easy (started today so this is the ideal scenario rather than actual):

Wu 6
A 6-950
S 950-1150
A 1150-340
S 340-425
Bt 7

He has never really done more than 11 hours at night so I aim to keep day at roughly 13 hours.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2015, 18:03:50 pm »

Yep, it is rather early but not unheard of at all.

I would still expect that first A will be too short hun, if he is nearing the 2-1. Many need to be pushing over 4hrs A to be considered in 2-1 territory. So very close. Fwiw we did this around your lO's age..

Wu 6.30 (normally earlier but aimed to get out of bed around then)
A 4hrs
S 10.30-12 (capped but very rarely need to cap it, if ever)
A 3.5hrs
S 3.30-4.15
A 2.75hrs
BT 7

As you can see I went with the slightly shorter day, but DD tended to take a long time to fall asleep at BT (and still does). She's always preferred a shorter A to BT too like yours. Around now it did take 20mims or so. We held this for around 3 weeks I think, then the shorter am nap came back, as with playing around at nap time so pushed straight to 4.5hrs and we held that for a month or two until we started getting pm nap refusals.

Wdyt? Fancy holding your ideal easy for a couple of days and letting me know what happens? What you're working towards looks great, but there might need to be a little movement in that first nap perhaps soon? Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2015, 20:29:55 pm »

Thank you for taking a look. I agree that the first a is short for the transition, I was just worried about pushing too quickly. Every time I try to reduce his tds to less than 2.45 he seems to really struggle. He did well on the new easy today and I had to wake him from both naps so we will see what the night brings. He has just started crawling and pulling up and is completely obsessed so we did have some bt shenanigans but he was asleep within 15 minutes. Ideally I would like to bring his second nap forward slightly as I know it would help with ot if he was going down for that one ut but he fights it if he hasn't had a full a time! A fair amount of apop may be needed to get through this transition I reckon!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2015, 08:22:23 am »

Apop is key for transitions! Keep me posted as to how it goes ok? There will be lots of ups and downs, here to help you through xx

Kfro · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2015, 09:53:40 am »

He did pretty well overnight. He woke at 445 but put himself back to sleep after wriggling about for a couple of minutes but then woke for the day at 535. All In all 10.5 hour night so pretty standard for him but He woke crying so I guess there is some ot there. I plan on trying to shorten the a to bed a little tonight so we will see what difference that makes.

I appreciate the handholding.... It always helps to know someone will talk it through

x

Kfro · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2015, 15:05:04 pm »

Oh dear.... He has discovered that he can stand up in his cot.... This can't be good!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2015, 19:12:07 pm »

Oh damn, I remember that time being really cr@p for sleep, sorry hun. Try and teach him how to get down on his own is key so he doesn't get stuck and start crying for you. All very well playing this game, but when you have to go in and put him back down, that's when OS and OT sets in. They get bored when they're doing it themselves.

I would much rather the first A be the longest as there's a chance of actually resettling an OT nap yk? I'm mor scared of UT in that respect. Too long of an A before BT here was much worse.

Hope the shorter A to BT works hun, fingers crossed for you here xx

Eta have you popped by this thread hun? I've just directed two other ladies to here who I think you'll get on with.. You're all in the same boat! Anyone want to talk about the 2-1 transition #27

Kfro · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2015, 05:27:51 am »

He seems to be dealing ok with it fingers crossed.... Stands up once and then sits himself back down without help so that's good. We are getting a weird cry out at 430 am though. He isn't stood up so it's not that.... Unless of course he stands up and then cries when he falls down maybe. 430 is 9.5 hours after he goes to sleep so seems a weird time to be ot? I can ssh him over the monitor and he goes back to sleep for just over an hour and then is up for the day at 6. Not sure if it's a discomfort thing, a regression thing to just ride out or that a routine tweak is needed?

Kellyjs · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2015, 07:02:40 am »

If he is going back to sleep, I would just ride it out and check for teeth. It's when they refuse to go back to sleep that's an issue.

I would also check the room is dark enough as in some areas it's starts to get light around then xx

Kfro · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2015, 08:06:34 am »

Fab.... That was my gut instinct too. Wasn't really sure what to do if it was ot.... He won't go down for a nap undertired and his a times are too long to allow two long naps. I think his top teeth are on the move so it could be that xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2015, 18:51:07 pm »

Could well be, teeth tend to cause havoc before we see them. We rack our brains wondering what on earth is going on then poof, we spot a tooth or two a couple of days later

xx

Kfro · « **Reply #13 on:** August 08, 2015, 05:49:59 am »

Ugh things have got a bit ugly again here. The past few nights have been tiring... He has woken up maybe three or four times each night from about 2am onwards. He doesn't cry and seems generally happy but gets tired quickly during the day due to broken sleep. I don't have to go in or anything but I am awake from 2ish onwards checking that he goes back to sleep. I increased his first a time to four hours yesterday to see if that helped but night was pretty similar. I have also cut his second nap back to half an hour to no avail. Could this just be him mastering something that I need to ride out? Is the cn starting to interfere with night sleep?

Kellyjs · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2015, 07:33:38 am »

It could well be both hun. I'd hold that 4hrs first A with the capped CN and see if he settles into it. We don't want to change too much if it's developmental as that could make matters worse for you. However waking at 2am onwards could be a sign of UT. How long is that first nap now? Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #15 on:** August 08, 2015, 08:50:19 am »

First nap is two hours. It's been tricky holding him out do four hours as he has been getting cranky but I know he won't actually go to sleep earlier. He fought the cat nap yesterday so it was later than ideal and then a pretty short a to bed so that doesn't help xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #16 on:** August 09, 2015, 13:58:26 pm »

Sorry for the late reply hun, had n impromptu get together!

It might be an idea to cap that first nap at 1.5hrs if you want to squeeze in a CN later on. Especially of he's not ready to go past 4hrs just yet xx

Kfro · « **Reply #17 on:** August 09, 2015, 18:26:18 pm »

No worries.

I was considering that. Would you suggest capping the first nap even if the cn isn't being refused regularly? Or only if that is becoming a problem. I have only had a problem once this week and he did go to sleep independently after 20 minutes (I'm just used to him going straight down!) I can't decide whether to cap the first nap and therefore reduce overall day sleep or keep pushing his first a and cap the cn further. He is taking longer to go down at bt. It's difficult to know how much a time to give after a cn.... I'm giving as much as I can to allow a decent bt but it may still not be enough!!

Kellyjs · « **Reply #18 on:** August 09, 2015, 18:31:28 pm »

How's the routine looking atm hun? Would you mind posting it for me?

How long does the BT shenanigans usually go on for? Will be able to see more I think once I see what your day looks like. I'm really considering the possibility UT might be the problem with the nights $:-\$ xx

Kfro · « **Reply #19 on:** August 09, 2015, 18:57:04 pm »

I really think it might be too.... It seems to have come from nowhere though.... Maybe he has just had a big jump in a time.... Usually that happens after a wonder week but I guess it is possible. His current routine is:

Get up 6 (he is always awake before this but plays quietly until I go in)
Nap 1: 10-12 (I always wake him)
Nap 2: 350-420 (I always wake him)
Bt: 650

Normally goes straight down for naps and takes about ten minutes at bedtime. He has always rolled about a bit before settling at bt but at the moment he pulls himself up and then sits back down again a good five or more times and takes twenty ish minutes to go to sleep xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #20 on:** August 09, 2015, 19:05:20 pm »

I think I would try the capping of the first nap for a few days and see if it makes a difference hun.

If we shave off 30mins,off that nap then we could look at doing something like this?

Wu 6
Nap 10-11.30
Nap 3.30-4
BT 7

I think just adding a little extra A onto the last one might help, but tbh it's not that bad re settling for BT at night.. My DD has always taken 30mims.. When it gets to 60mims I know something needs to change and/or developmental factors are at play.

Maybe just that little tweak might help a little? You've changed quite a bit recently so I don't want to change too much. He might also settle a bit easier for that second nap too? Dyt it's worth thing it for a few days to see? We can always revert back to what you had before xx

Kfro · « **Reply #21 on:** August 09, 2015, 19:43:04 pm »

I think it is definitely worth a shot. I will give it a go tomorrow and let you know how it goes.

Out of interest what amount of total sleep was your dd getting just before she transitioned to 1 nap? Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #22 on:** August 10, 2015, 07:51:27 am »

Just before we went to one nap, our routine was quite similar to the one I posted before. So 2hrs DT sleep. 11hrs ONS. Towards the end we were only doing a 15mins CN so 1hr 45mins, then eventually got to 2-2.5hrs one nap days. 2.5hrs was too much in the end so had to start capping it to 2hrs but she did manage to keep that routine for just over a year so that was nice!!

Good luck and keep me posted xx

Kfro · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2015, 09:16:07 am »

So last night was much better

. He was asleep in ten minutes and slept straight through for 10.5 hours (which is his standard). I'm just slightly worried that his total sleep in 24 hours is now only 12.5 hours..... And that will decrease when I cut the catnap further. Is that ok? Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2015, 06:45:30 am »

I think it'll be ok for now. Just keep an eye on his mood. Technically without the NW's he'll be sleeping more atm.

I wouldn't change anything for now, perhaps hold this for a week or so to see if things settle down? Cutting the CN now doesn't seem necessary if he's not messing around at BT, yet

xx

Kfro · « **Reply #25 on:** August 15, 2015, 15:47:59 pm »

Complete catnap refusal today for the first time.... Even a drive didn't work. I upped his first a to 4 hours 10 today as he has only been doing 10.5 hour nights and waking just before 530. I'm not sure if this has meant that some ot has built up and that is what caused today's disaster or what. I put him down for his cn at 3 hours 50 a time (as I have been for the past week) and he looked like he was going to settle but then started crying. I tried sshing over the monitor and going in and picking him up but he wouldn't calm down. He cried for the first ten minutes of the car journey and then just sat and looked out of the window :s. Don't know where to go from here.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #26 on:** August 16, 2015, 11:48:05 am »

I'd keep trying for the CN hun. Even the quiet time in bed I think helps and do EBT.

I'd also keep trying to extend that first A too. 15mims again, then after another couple of days, extend again. It is yucky this stage in the transition and some OT is to be expected but you are giving him the opportunity to sleep, it's up to him to take it. There's only so much you can do hun, I feel for you though I got really fed up around that stage of nap refusal xx

Kfro · « **Reply #27 on:** August 22, 2015, 09:02:37 am »

Ugh..... He is acting sooooo tired

. I'm really worried I'm pushing him too quickly. He messed about a bit at bt last night.... Looked like he was asleep after five mins but then ten mins later he was up and playing again. So I thought that I should push his a time up again today.... First a time will be 4 hours 30 from get up. This will mean that we can only fit in a twenty minute cn which I thought would help with bt but now I'm not sure. He is still a week shy of ten months and I know the average a times for his age are 3-4 hours. Maybe I have misread the situation and am pushing him too young? I'm really doubting myself

. He has got teeth coming through which I know blurs things too.

Kellyjs · « **Reply #28 on:** August 22, 2015, 19:21:01 pm »

How long is the A time before BT hun?

Some OT is to be expected sweetie, you're not doing anything wrong. At this stage in the transition I started apop a CN in the car around 9/9.30 for 15mins so I could get her to a reasonable nap time and not be so OT before BT. Dyt that's something you could do? I was exactly at your stage at 10mo too hun so please don't doubt yourself. You're giving him the opportunity to sleep. It's up to him to take it ok?

If he wakes at 5.30 tomorrow, try the apop CN in the car at 9am for 20mi s, then hopefully that should get you to a 12/12.15pm nap time then see how long he sleeps. Worth a go? Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #29 on:** August 23, 2015, 04:59:26 am »

I don't know if he would go down that early. How would I know when to fro the cn if I could get him to take it then? And I'm guessing the long nap is brought forward? I feel so bad for him

xx

Kfro · « **Reply #30 on:** August 23, 2015, 09:02:37 am »

Is it too early to just put him down at 4hrs 30 and let him sleep for as long as he likes? And then just do a 10 minute cn to get to bt if need be? Is that a really bad idea? Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #31 on:** August 24, 2015, 07:21:27 am »

You could definitely try that hun. The danger is a short nap first thing, but if he is OT he may well sleep a bit longer for that one anyway. How did it go? Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #32 on:** August 24, 2015, 10:02:50 am »

I let him have two hours yesterday morning and then a ten minute cn in the car late afternoon. Night was bad but I'm pretty certain it was teeth as he was crying out a lot between 930 and 1130pm. I'm doing the same today as at least it lets him get a bit more day sleep and an earlier night so he has the opportunity to catch up a bit. I am tempted to just let him sleep as long as he wants though.... I think he would probably do 2.5 hours. It's really tough to know how tired he is when he is cranky because of teeth and the wonder week storm.

Did your dds total sleep increase when she went onto one nap? At the moment ds only does 13 hours total so a 2.5 hour nap will leave a short night so one nap and ebt won't work :s.... Or does the long a to bed lead to a longer night? Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #33 on:** August 24, 2015, 16:21:25 pm »

Yk mine did start sleeping more overall for a bit until it stabilised out a bit. She was pulling a 2.5hr nap and a 11hr night. Nights stared shortening so I capped the nap at 2hrs but by moving the nap later as I knew she couldn't handle the longer A to BT.

Because of this I'm always wary of a too lomg of a before BT. Pushing the first a for us just resulted in a longer nap.

If yours does sleep 2.5hrs, I'd ditch the CN and do a slightly earlier BT hun. Too much day sleep can rob them of night sleep so it's a case of finding the right balance for yours. Some prefer more DT sleep and can do just fine on 10hrs ONS, I just liked my Y time in the evenings too much! If he is a bit OT, a couple of days catch up will be great, I just don't think it'll be sustainable in the long term to expect 2.5-3hrs DT sleep and a reasonable length of night too.

Keep me posted ok? X

Kfro · « **Reply #34 on:** September 04, 2015, 12:29:32 pm »

Ugh I'm so confused.

We moved to one nap last weekend as the total sleep he was getting in 24 hours was really low and he was exhausted. It went really well. For five days he slept for 2-3 hours for his nap and was in bed 4.5 hours after he woke up from his nap. He was falling asleep at bt within five mins and was back to more than 13 hours total sleep. He was also a much happier baby. Yesterday he woke up crying after 1 hour 50. I shh'd him over the monitor and he went back to sleep for another half an hour. He woke up crying again and I couldn't resettle so I got him up. He was in bed for six and got over eleven hours sleep but it was broken with coughing fits and one bought of crying. I think he is teething again so I put it down to this and figured we were in for a rough few days. Put him down for his nap at the normal time and he woke up after 1 hour 40 but this time he just started playing! He played for ten mins and then went back to sleep for twenty mins and then woke up and played again. He is now laying quietly but I'm pretty sure he isn't asleep!!!! What???!!!! He can't be undertired!!!! He is on 5 hours a time from get up in the morning and he is normally awake for at least ten minutes before I get him up. What do I do? Is he self-regulating after getting more night sleep?

Kellyjs · « **Reply #35 on:** September 04, 2015, 13:10:16 pm »

Definitely could be a little UT hun, or teething cold be a possibility too.

How about tomorrow trying some ibuprofen 20mins before the nap? If that doesn't work I'd look at extending that first A by 15mins again.

Fwiw hun, my DD did this. After a week, she needed the A time extending again first thing. It was 6hrs in the end, where it stayed xx

Kfro · « **Reply #36 on:** September 04, 2015, 16:58:18 pm »

It just seems crazy that he could need more a time!! I have been keeping it low key and taking him for a walk in the morning so I think I will skip the walk tomorrow and see if that makes him more tired. What age was your dd when she was doing 6 hours a? What did she do after the nap? Is this when you had to start capping it? Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #37 on:** September 05, 2015, 07:49:54 am »

Yes actually it was around now we had to cap it at 2hrs. I can't quite remember but think she was around 11.5/12 mo when we hit 6hrs A. It did coincide with the 12mo GS/ww where she was sleeping loads to start with then realised that wasn't going to last forever! Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #38 on:** September 09, 2015, 06:04:26 am »

Out of interest what a time did your dd do before bed? We are at 5 hours am and 4 40 pm. Ews are back so I was going to increase first a but then they are really out of balance? Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #39 on:** September 09, 2015, 06:28:57 am »

Yk I haven't seen many bubbas that do equal first and last A. Many have it out of balance per se. We started with 4hrs to BT, then it went to 4.5hrs as I realised early on in the transition that 5hrs to BT caused OT NW's in the early part of the night.

I want to say though I had to put my DD down earlier than some people do (and still do) as it takes her 30mins to wind down in bed at night.

How old is he now hun? Any chance teething could be at play before you tweak much more? Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #40 on:** September 09, 2015, 06:36:17 am »

Oh he is still rediculously young to be on one nap.... He isn't even 10.5 months yet. He has been pulling 3 hour naps which is awesome but then the Ews are comingback. He always wakes early around five iah but was going back to sleep pretty quickly. Now he is very restless between 5 and 6. But yes it could definitely be teeth xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #41 on:** September 09, 2015, 18:32:42 pm »

Can you give me your easy hun? It might be that it's just a little too much day sleep and he's finally self-regulating? If we could push out the day a tad more, maybe cap the nap to 2.5hrs, it might help lengthen the nights? But that all depends on how much ONS he's getting atm xx

Kfro · « **Reply #42 on:** September 10, 2015, 19:29:32 pm »

I think it probably is too much day sleep.... I have just been clinging onto letting him have what he wants as it has been so long since I have been able to do that! I also haven't wanted to change anything whilst another tooth is trying to cut through. He woke up early from his nap today. He slept solidly for 2 hours 15 minutes and then was messing about for twenty minutes before I got him up (he kept looking like he was going to resettle). He therefore went to bed a bit earlier so we will see what that does to the night. On days where he has woken after 2 hours 40 ish he has settled back to sleep after waking early so fingers crossed. Our easy on days where he does 3 hours nap is as follows:

Wu 6
Milk 615
Breakfast 8
Milk 1045
Nap 11-2
Lunch 2
Dinner 430
Milk 615
Bt 630 (asleep within 5)

Kellyjs · « **Reply #43 on:** September 11, 2015, 05:55:37 am »

I can definitely see why you're clinging onto that nap hun! Not judging at all, I'm desperately clinging onto DD's nap although she's ready to have it cut shorter again

Point is, your day length is good so it might be too much day sleep really. I'd be interested to hear how last night went xx

Kfro · « **Reply #44 on:** September 11, 2015, 06:13:04 am »

Last night was better but he was still up early he was asleep a good 20 minutes earlier and slept in for an extra 25 minutes so overall more sleep. I just wish he would wake himself after 2.5 hours nap and I would feel much better about it! Maybe if I am a bit noisier from that point onwards he will start stirring! Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #45 on:** September 11, 2015, 06:32:13 am »

It is horrible when you have to wake them, I have to do it too.

Ok then, plan. I would try and push out that first A again hun. The idea is if we're capping the nap slightly, we don't want too long of an A to BT. Also, we can't push too far of else he'll be even more grumpy about being woken!

So how about we do it slowly given his age. Maybe add 15mins onto the first A and still wake at 2pm and see how he fares for a few days? Xx

Kfro · « **Reply #46 on:** September 12, 2015, 16:57:37 pm »

Oh I'm being such a wimp about this. I am really struggling with the idea of capping his nap

. I'm normally the first to want to push his a time when he needs it but I just can't believe he can do more than five hours!!!! He is soooooo sleepy when it comes to five hours of a time but I guess that's because of the ew. I normally increase his a time for 5-10 minutes (because I'm a wimp) but is that going to be too small an amount to make a difference? Should I just go for 15? Xx

Kellyjs · « **Reply #47 on:** September 13, 2015, 06:35:27 am »

Totally up to you hun, tbh I don't think 15mins will make too much of a difference in terms of OT or anything. Good thing I didn't suggest 30mins eh?!

xx

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Author Topic: 2-1 nap transition.... Am nap refusal (Read 5536 times)