Author Topic: bedtime shenanigans - help!  (Read 2719 times)

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Offline oliversmommy

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bedtime shenanigans - help!
« on: July 28, 2015, 01:42:32 am »
DS sleeps in a toddler bed at home.  2 wks ago we went on vacation for 4 days and while on vacation, DS began getting OOB quite frequently at BT.  I finally had to lay in his room to keep him in there until he fell asleep.  Now that we are home, he is still getting OOB at BT.  Like 20+ times in 45 min.  We are going through the "lovely" 1-0 transition so that isn't helping the situation.  We walk him back to bed silently each time he gets up, but he still seems to think it's a game.  Any ideas/suggestions on how to curtail this behavior? 

DS is 3 yrs 10 mos old BTW.

TIA!  :) :) :)

Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2015, 07:37:28 am »
what do his days look like in terms of WU, nap time, BT?

Whenever we get BT shenanigans it's because she's UT at BT.  I know it's tricky with the 1-0 though judging when to do BT.

Have you done any NNDs (no nap days) yet?  Does he settle any quicker then?  It might be time to think about ditching the nap completely.
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2015, 12:48:52 pm »
Cath thanks for your reply!  :)

WU is around 7 am, on NNDs BT is 8 pm and he falls asleep pretty quickly.

He only naps at home in the car, and if he falls asleep in the car then I cap his car naps to 30 min and move BT back by 30 min.

I would LOVE to ditch the nap completely and I think he's ready however he attends preschool where the children are required to lay down on cots in a darkened room for at least 30 min, and of course he falls asleep every time.  He only attends 2 days/week over the summer, but next week I'll be going back to work and he'll be there 5 days/week.  I've asked them to start waking him after 30 min (they are going to try it today for the first time) so we'll see how that goes.

I'm not sure how long he naps on preschool days (I think it's at least an hour) - on those days BT is 9 and DS doesn't fall asleep until 9:45-10 pm.  And wakes up at the same time, so has a short night, is tired the next day, and needs a nap.  :(   I feel like we can't get out of this cycle of short nights then naps to make up for the lost sleep.  I'm really worried he won't ditch the nap at preschool on his own, and that his falling asleep at night will just get later and later!  :(


Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2015, 12:58:03 pm »
Argh - lots of people have had trouble with daycare naps at this age.  It can be a total PITA.

I'd definitely insist (if you can) that they wake him at 30 mins.  Or, would they be amenable (for example), to letting him take a book to read quietly instead?  Or some paper for drawing? Could that keep him awake?

If it helps, you could try explaining to them that the nap robs more from his night sleep than he gains from the nap, so because of the nap he's getting less sleep overall (this is usually what happens - is it the case for you too?).

Failing that, and accepting that it will mean he has a late BT on days when he's napped, would he be happy to read/look at books or listen to audio stories, for example, until he decides he's ready to nod off?  Rather than you having to deal with lots of UT shenanigans.  DYT that could help?

WRT to the car naps, when they happen I'd be inclined to keep them as short as possible (i.e. wake him as soon as you can) or not let them happen at all (if possible) so he gets used to not sleeping during the day.  It might help with him not sleeping at preschool.
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2015, 02:44:35 am »
Thanks again for your post - great suggestions!  :)

I don't think DS's preschool will keep him awake/off the cot at naptime, but they did agree to wake him after 30 min (and did so yesterday).  Today we had a NND, BT was 8 pm, and DS has been getting up pretty much every min since then (it's 8:45 right now).  Before we went on vacation, he got up 1-2 times at most before falling asleep on NNDs, so I'm starting to wonder if this could be developmental.

The audio books are a good idea.  We might have to try that tomorrow night.

Also good idea about shortening/eliminating the car naps.

Okay, so the shenanigans went on until 9 pm - I finally asked DS what he needed to stay in his bed, and he asked me to stay in his room.  So I laid next to his bed and he fell asleep at 9:15.  I'm afraid that now he'll be tired tomorrow at preschool and they'll have trouble waking him from his nap and then he'll be crabby and they'll question why I'm capping his naps.

I'm just really frustrated - this transition is taking FOREVER!  And he CAN'T be falling asleep late when I go back to work next week - I NEED my downtime in the evenings.  Maybe audio books is the way to go - I'm definitely not laying in his room every night until he falls asleep!

Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2015, 05:28:24 am »
((Hugs)) that sounds tough

Dyt he has some SA? Could he be worried about your return to work? Anything else could be bothering him?

Or dyt maybe the coming out has become a habit, so he does it even when he is tired enough to sleep?

I know some people have used gates on their lo's bedrooms to keep them in..  :-\

Sorry, not much advice I'm afraid.  How was last night?
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2015, 13:35:44 pm »
SA did cross my mind - he started a new preschool a couple of months ago (previous one closed) and he's still adjusting.  Still upset at drop offs in the mornings.  Also had a new babysitter last weekend for a couple of hours and he was NOT happy about being left with her.

Last night was a little better.  We had about 30 min of him coming out of his room every 30 sec or so - he was running down the hall laughing and then refusing to be walked back to bed (dropping to the floor) - I think it's turned into a game for him.  So I stood RIGHT outside his door and walked him straight back to bed as soon as he opened it and I think he eventually got bored.  I think I'm going to try that again tonight. 

I did think about a gate too, but I'm sure he would climb right over it . . .

Thanks again for your suggestions!  I'll keep you posted on our progress! :)

Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2015, 17:39:13 pm »
Yes, do keep posting.

I know others on here have had success with waiting right outside the door so hope it does the trick for you too

I'll ask around if anyone else has any other thoughts on this they can offer
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 17:43:55 pm by cathn »
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline weaver

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2015, 18:06:59 pm »
I didn't have this but LO1 stayed in his cot til well past 3, and LO2 is 3 and is still in a cot.  So they can't get out!  (Evil laugh ;))

Sounds like there have been a lot of changes in recent weeks, so perhaps look at how much stimulation he's getting in the 90 minutes before BT, and see if you can really work on filling his mama cup in that time.  That'll help with the emotional side of it. 

There may be an element of napping in there, but it really sounds to me like he's likely to be OS by then and needing help to get grounded. 
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline Buntybear

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2015, 21:36:53 pm »
Agree with staying outside his door. This will help him, as you say, get bored with the getting up but also provide him with that reassurance that you are still there if it is a bit of SA.

good luck x

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2015, 18:00:32 pm »
Thanks ladies for your posts!  :)

Anne - we kept DS in a crib until about 4-5 mos ago - kept him in there as long as we could!  Sure miss it now!  :)

That's a good idea to look at his evenings and keep them low-key/full of mommy time.  Tried to do that the past few nights (except one night when we went to my parent's for dinner) and will continue to do so this week, especially now that he will be in preschool for a longer day and for the entire week.

The behavior has continued since I last posted - I'm continuing to wait outside his door and walk him back to bed when he attempts to leave the room until he falls asleep.  Two of the last 3 nights it took around 30 min, one night only 15 min.  He's been getting less sleep overall and I'm not sure if his sleep needs are decreasing or if it's due to whatever he is going through at the moment.  Yesterday was a NND and he was clearly tired at BT but getting up constantly, so I laid next to his bed until he fell asleep.  I wanted him as rested as possible for today, his first day of preschool this week, because his preschool teachers tell me he is "hard to wake up" at nap time and I don't want him catching up on sleep then.

I'm considering lying next to his bed as needed for the next week or two if this behavior continues, as I want him to get lots of ONS so he doesn't need the naps at preschool.  I'm worried that I'm reinforcing the getting up behavior and I don't want to become a prop, but I figure I can pull back once he's feeling more settled into the new routine.  What do you think??? 


Offline weaver

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2015, 18:54:06 pm »
When LO1 started kindy (age 4) I lay down on his bed with him every night to help him unwind and really get to sleep.  He is sensitive to stimulation and was pretty wound up even after a short day and a very laid back atmosphere. It worked a treat and really helped him sleep.  No difficulty changing back to not laying with him. They're all individuals mind you but you won't still be there when he's 20!
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 19:01:12 pm »
I agree with PP

If it's what you think he needs ATM and it helps ( doesn't become a game with you there for ages iyswim) then go for it. You can always change things in the future (eg with GW) if / when you or he are/is ready for it.

The only thing to watch out for perhaps is if he starts waking more at night and needing you to resettle but at this age it's prob less likely than with a baby or young toddler.  If that does happen though then you can decide what to do then.
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2015, 17:26:04 pm »
Anne - thanks for posting - helps to know that it worked for your DS and that it was easy for him to go back to being an IS. 

Last night after BT, DS got up about 10x in 15 min - I stood by his door the whole time.  Then all was quiet and I *thought* he was asleep, but he got up again 15 min later.  After a few more tries he finally fell asleep.  So I didn't have to stay in his room w/ him, although I wonder if I did, if he might have fallen asleep faster. 

I feel like we are just stuck in this cycle of short nights/daytime naps and I'm not sure we'll get out of it until DS drops the nap completely, as his preschool won't keep him up during naptime.  (all children have to lie down on a cot for at least 30 min.)  He's sleeping 30-60 min during nap (I keep getting told he is hard to wake up).  I'm thinking I might have to try letting him listen to audio books/music/read in bed before he falls asleep at night, but I'm afraid even with that he will still be getting up out of bed constantly until he falls asleep.  :-\

Cathn - he does wake at night - not every night but most nights - this has been happening for months now.  Anywhere from 1-3 times although a couple of nights it was more than that.  He wakes up, gets up and comes in our room, we walk him back to bed and he goes back to sleep.  It wasn't a problem over the summer but now that we are all back at preschool/work and need our sleep, it's more disruptive.  But I have no idea how to address it.  :-\

Thanks ladies for all of your help and support! :)


Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 08:37:50 am »
(((Hugs))) it's really tricky with the nap giving short nights. A vicious cycle.

IIWM I'd be inclined, from what you said, to stay outside his door and not go in. It sounds like he's getting up a bit less? And with the NWs I'd be wary about him needing more during the night too if you stay with him at
BT.

Poss not what you want to hear, but the NWs might just be a developmental phase and you'll just have to wait for them to pass..
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 18:42:35 pm »
Last night DS asked me to stay in his room at BT, so I did, and it took him 40 min to settle and fall asleep.  (He didn't interact w/ me at all except to tell me he was going to the BR to go potty - we double void before BT so not sure if he really needed to go or not.)  So it appears that me staying w/ him doesn't reduce the time it takes him to fall asleep.  So I'll go back to staying outside his door like you suggested.

His NWs have been getting longer - he's been getting up multiple times w/ each NW the past few nights.  And coming into our room each time and needing to be walked back to bed.  We've talked to him about staying in his room at night but it doesn't seem to be helping.  Needless to say I am exhausted!!! 

Whenever he gets up, if I stay/stop at his door, he asks me to watch him get back into bed.  So it appears he needs some kind of attention/reassurance from me.  If this is developmental I hope it passes soon!!!

He was also dry this morning (still wears pull-ups to bed) and was dry a few mornings ago as well.  He did go potty during one of his 2 NWs last night.  So perhaps he is working on staying dry at night and this is also disrupting his sleep???

He slept in a bit this morning (about 30 min) - I'm hoping that he will be less tired at naptime today and therefore take a shorter nap, and therefore be more tired at BT. . .

I'm trying to keep perspective on this - this too shall pass and we'll eventually get back to our peaceful/restful nights - but oh it is hard when you are going through it!  Thanks for holding my hand Cathn!

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2015, 17:28:25 pm »
Just a quick update - stayed outside DS's door last night and walked him back to bed every time he got up - took him over an hour to fall asleep (BT was 9 pm, fell asleep at 10:10 pm).  No idea how long his nap was at preschool yesterday as the teacher there during pickup was a teacher from a different classroom who didn't have that information (grrrr...) so not sure if he was UT or OT at BT . . .

However we only had one NW w/ one back-to-bed walk last night which is a significant improvement over the past 2 nights!  ;D

I can cope better w/ a plan, so I've decided to try the silent walking back to bed/standing outside his door for a few more nights, and see what happens.  DS is home w/ DH tomorrow, so the next 3 days DS will be at home and I'm going to try for 3 NNDs and see if we can lengthen his nights a bit before he returns to preschool next week.  I'm also going to talk to preschool if the waking after 30 min at naptime isn't working (which it doesn't appear to be as he seems to be sleeping longer than that during the day) - maybe I can convince them to keep him up and doing a quiet activity during naptime. 

He is really wired when he gets home after preschool and quiet activities like looking at books don't seem to help.  Any suggestions on some good calming activities???

Offline weaver

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2015, 19:10:31 pm »
Playdough - if you make it yourself you can add lavender oil which is *really* calming.
*Anne*, loving mama to a honeybee (2010) and a sweetpea (2012).  BF for 4 proud years.


Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2015, 09:07:37 am »
Yay for just one NW :)

Pleased you have a plan now too. I always feel better when I have a plan at least!

Play doh is a good idea for calming activities. Or drawing , stickers..
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2015, 17:27:41 pm »
Love the idea of lavender scented play-doh!  Will have to make some this weekend :) 

DS is visually impaired and doesn't like activities like drawing, stickers etc.  He does like to look at books/be read to as well as sit and play with toy cars/trains etc so we try to do those activities at night.  But he still is up like a jack-in-the-box at BT. ::)

Last night was horrible - DS was in bed by 8:50 pm, but didn't fall asleep until after 10:30. :(  He got out of bed constantly the whole time.  It was exhausting.  Finally DH went in and laid next to his bed until he fell asleep.  Then he had multiple NW - I'm not sure how many b/c DH took over so I could get some sleep.  Then DS woke up early this morning.  So he ended up w/ only 8 hrs ONS. :P  His preschool teacher said he had 45 min naps the past two days so he is definitely not getting enough sleep.

I can't do this anymore.  I've decided the nap needs to go.  I'm going to talk to his preschool teacher and see if he can have quiet time instead of lying on a cot at naptime.  If she says no, I don't know what I'm going to do.  I guess try audio books at night and pray he stays in bed.  Worse case scenario, his preschool is closed over Christmas for 2 wks, and we won't leave the house those 2 wks so I can break him of his naps!


Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2015, 18:29:55 pm »
I hope you can get his teacher to agree.

Also, at this age, I wonder how much you have spoken to him about the BT problems? I'd sit down and have a chat with him out of the moment (not at BT!) one day about how important good sleep is for his body to grow and his mind to learn things etc, and so he's not tired the next day, also how important it is for YOU to have some evening time, and ask him if he has any ideas why he keeps getting out of bed and also ask him if perhaps you could brainstorm ideas together (write them all down on a list then pick the ones you could try) that might help things? You might be surprised by what he says and if you can get the two of you working from the same page so-to-speak then that might also help. WDYT?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 18:32:02 pm by cathn »
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2015, 21:01:21 pm »
Cathn,
Thanks again for the suggestions.  Had discussed some of this before w/ DS, but after reading your post decided to have a conversation w/ him again.  When asked why he gets out of bed, he consistently replies, "because I'm not tired".  When I asked him how we could help him stay in bed, he said, "get my crib back". (I wish!!!)  His responses to the importance of sleep are "I don't want to grow and be healthy" etc.  Such a stinker! ::)  Talked to him about how DH and I need time at night and I know he heard me but got no response to this.

Sat and Sun were NNDs, BT was around 8 pm, he did get up a lot but was asleep by 8:15-8:30 pm.  It was GLORIOUS to have my evenings back!  I had emailed his preschool teacher about keeping him awake at nap time so I was really hopeful when I went to pick him up yesterday after work.  Only to be told that they planned to keep him awake but he fell asleep when their heads were turned.  :(  He slept for 45 min.  So I decided to try letting him listen to a CD of calming songs that he likes, hoping it would keep him in bed.  It didn't work.  :(  He got up repeatedly and FINALLY fell asleep around 10:45 pm.  Which means he'll be tired today and will nap again, and we are back in this horrible cycle again. . .

I am so frustrated I want to cry.  (And did last night!)  I am completely out of ideas, I'm exhausted from going to bed too late and getting up w/ him during his NWs, and I am getting absolutely NO downtime in my day.  DH has promised to take over tonight to give me a break, but he deals w/ this situation differently (threatens, gives negative consequences like taking away stuffed animals from DS's bed) which don't work either and I'm sure are not helping the situation.  We can't get on the same page about how to deal with this (which isn't helping anyone's stress levels).  I just want my evenings back!

Thanks for letting me vent.  I know others are dealing w/ tougher situations and that this won't go on forever, but oh this is hard! 

Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2015, 18:30:31 pm »
Oh no!

So sorry to hear about the 45 min nap and resultingate BT :( how frustrating for you

I really hope you can get them to stop the nap.

Just wondering though if you can limit some of the frustrating evenings perhaps by accepting that he won't be going to sleep so early and doing something relaxing together. Maybe going for a walk round the neighbourhood if it's still light, simple board/card games, jigsaw puzzles.. Would he prefer to listen to stories downstairs so you can relax with a magazine or something?  Just trying to think of ideas to help you a bit with the late BTs... :-\

(((Hugs)))
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2015, 08:45:26 am »
Hello,

just wondering how things are going this week?
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old

Offline oliversmommy

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2015, 20:51:31 pm »
Thanks for checking in on me!  We're managing.  I realized that I needed to just accept the situation and deal with it the best I could (like you said, accept the late BTs), so we've been putting DS to bed a little later and trying to do relaxing things together as a family (like you suggested!) before BT.  Fortunately the weather has been nice and DS loves to go on walks, so we have been walking every night.  He will stay in bed (or in his room at least)after BT most nights with a combination of WI/WO and a sticker chart, although this seems to have become less effective the past few nights.  I'm also trying to get my evening chores done before BT (rather than after as I was used to doing), so that I am able to just relax after BT (in between WI/WOs).  He's been falling asleep and waking up at pretty consistent times (9:45/10 pm and 6:45/7 am) so I think he's settled into this routine now.  I don't know how he manages on such little sleep but he does!   It's hard b/c DH has been getting easily frustrated w/ DS's behavior so I'm the one doing the WI/WOs every night.  However we're still doing NNDs on the weekends, so I do get 2 nights a week of a couple hours of time for myself.  The house is absolutely filthy but I don't care - I need my downtime!

DS turns 4 in a couple of weeks, which means we will have been in the 1-0 transition for a year - that has to be a record!  I just keep telling myself that this won't go on forever . . . (it won't, right?!? ;) )

Offline cath~

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Re: bedtime shenanigans - help!
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2015, 08:46:23 am »
Pleased that you're finding something that's working OK for now.

The house is absolutely filthy but I don't care - I need my downtime!
Totally!  Housework can always wait.  He won't be in this transition forever x
DD1 - 8 years old
DD2 - 5 years old