Author Topic: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?  (Read 15619 times)

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Offline creations

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2015, 09:13:40 am »
I know it seems daunting, especially when you have read so many things about how bad the 2-1 transition might be.
There's no pressure to do this right now. let's just look, think, get the idea in our minds so we are prepared in advance and not caught on the hop if nights and naps go very short or if naps are refused.

OK, here I have slotted in an example of when milk and solids can come. Continuing with 5 milk feeds per day plus 1 at night and 2 solids meals, I also show where a 3rd solids would slot in when he's ready for it.  I've used your feed timings as a starting point but tweaked a little to spread the feeds across the day.
With milk just before and right after the nap he should be fine to last a good nap length without being hungry (ie even a 3hr nap is still only 3hr between milk feeds).
Do remember this is only a guidance routine to give you an idea. In reality we start somewhere then adapt as needed.
This is how your day could look:
WU 8
milk 8
solids 9
milk 11
solids 12 with a top up milk directly after which comes just before nap
A 5hr
S 1-3 (uncapped, it's ok to sleep longer, even 3hrs is fine)
milk 3 or when he wakes
solids 4/5 (you are not doing dinner yet but this is where it can go)
milk 6.30/7 for BT
A 4hr
BT 6.30/7.00 (if he took a 3hr nap BT could be 7.30pm)
night 13 - 13.5
overall sleep 15hr+
one night feed

Yesterday he slept 2.5hrs for nap 1! ( mum put him down, I was out. She didn't cap his nap as I was going to take him out in the afternoon so I knew he would get really tired) was it OT accumulation from the past few days?
It looks to me like he is self regulating his sleep length based on the set times you are currently giving him. So, for a few days he cuts his night short, wakes at 7 instead of 7.30/capped, he naps short, 1 hr or 1.5 instead of 2hr/capped. Then after a few days of this he has accumulated tiredness (this does not mean OT or that it is a big problem but rather self regulation) he sleeps later in the morning and a longer nap.
It's fine to continue with this just now if you are more comfortable with it, but be prepared that there is likely to be a continuation of this self regulation meaning daily changes (or phases every few days) to WU time, nap reluctance (that day or 2 he didn't go to sleep until after 12), short nap etc followed by later WU, longer nap.
Whilst I totally understand reluctance to change the routine moving to 1 nap might actually provide you all with more predictability than with him self regulating in phases.  When we began this thread he moved to a set routine fabulously, it removed all/most of the unpredictability of various WU times, various A times, various naps lengths and allowed you both to know what was to happen when.

It's important to say: You are his Mummy.  It is totally your decision (and your DH).
All we can do here is offer advice and support based on the information we have, and we cannot offer any guarantee that it works out, it's our 'best guess'.

My concern, my reason for looking at a 1 nap routine and for a way to transition to that routine is that, if I don't propose this in in a timely manner, LO could quite significantly reduce his night sleep and naps or refuse naps. We *could* be looking at 5 or 6am WUs and messy nap times (ie if LO wakes at 6am the temptation is to move nap 1 earlier because he'll be tired, the day goes off track), it becomes harder to move that nap time later and head towards the 1 nap day when night sleep has been reduced this amount because it's harder to get to a 12 or 1pm nap, when nap comes too early you have to fit in another nap to get through the day, by offering a second nap he can then continue to take a short night (or long night wakings). It can become a bit of a trap.
That sounds scary hey?  I don't want to scare you, I only want to explain why I've brought up the idea of a 1 nap routine.

So, there are a few more things I want to cover, I know you like to understand what's going on.
1. If you continue the current routine and if he does go through phases/cycles of shorter nights and naps followed by longer nights and naps...we can wait until the longer night/nap day arrives and then rapidly transition to 1 nap.  The 7-10 day transition period I detailed above could be reduced down to a couple of days because we start with the day where the WU is later. This would be preferable all round I would think.
2. If you continue the current routine an suddenly start getting lots of nap refusals, 10hr nights or long NWs we can tackle that head on when it happens and come up with a plan to get out of it.
3. This day I have quoted below is actually pretty close to being able to manage a 1 nap day already. You wake him (so he could have slept longer in the morning), he takes a long nap (he could do a 2.5-3hr nap on a 1 nap day, it's a really good refreshing sleep rather than a 1hr nap plus a 25 min CN)

Yesterday:  brought his out after nap 1.
Wu: 730am ( I woke him up)
Nap 1: 1115-140pm ( I am surprised! uncapped as we were going out later)
nap 2: 450-515pm ( slept in carrier. Capped)
Bedtime: 745pm ( I thought he may not be sleepy as nap 1 was so long. But he was pretty tired by then)

Last thing
Some questions about the transition days that you posted above.
Day 1 &2 :
WU: 7am
does that mean that I must wake him up at 7am?

For the whole schedule:
Do I cap all  naps/WU/bedtime to follow the schedule?
No, the transition period is purely a way to move his nap later whilst we wait for WU time to move later.  What we would look for is moving to the 'end' routine as quickly as possible but without suddenly making him stay awake from 7am (if he woke then) to 1pm.  He can and has done a 5hr morning A time without problem so could possibly go directly from 8am WU to 1pm nap, but, he is used to set nap times and I would be inclined to move his 'set' nap time by 15-30 mins at a time rather than 1-2 hrs (even though he has done this himself before).

I hope I have not overwhelmed you with information!
Have a think.
We are here regardless of what you decide to do.
As always we can hold your hand through the process and as always we might not be able to get on *every day* or *exactly* when you need us to answer a question immediately but we would do our best to support you throughout.
 :-*


Offline centrestage88

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2015, 11:46:46 am »
Dear creations
Thank you for the really thorough explanation. It makes lots more sense now. I feel much more informed and prepared.

Haha, I'm his mummy but often I feel like lo is my boss instead of the other way round.

We are ready for the nap translation. Hubby would like to see more of him after work, but he understands that lo's sleep needs come first and that when lo is older a later bedtime may be possible.

He slept short and cranky naps today. It seems to be following the pattern that you were mentioning.

Today:
Wu: 730( I woke him up)
Nap: 1130-1230 ( uncapped. Cried)
Nap: 415-5( uncapped. Cried)
Bedtime: 730 pm ( tired)

So if I were to start nap transition, I should let him sleep pass 730am and sleep in till whatever time he wants to, and from there, start the process of a one nap a day routine?

And thank you for all the support and hand holding from way across the globe! :)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 15:25:49 pm by centrestage88 »

Offline centrestage88

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2015, 15:35:28 pm »
Oh, one thing I don't quite understand, why is it that in so many baby sleep books, recommended wake up time and sleep time is 7am and 7pm? Isn't it the same if the schedule ie: 6am-6pm, 8am-8pm?

Likewise for my lo, whilst bedtime for his 1 nap schedule is at 7pm and wu at 8am, would it be the same if wu was 830am and bedtime 730pm?

Is it something to do with the natural circadian rhythm?

Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2015, 17:02:04 pm »
I think in most cases a book just picks an average time just to give a jumping off point, but of course every child is uniques so you just take the parts you read and adapt them to suit your child and your life. As an example, I am not a morning person so for us a bit later bedtime with a later bedtime suits me better (which my older kids also were fine with, DD3 wakes a bit earlier but will play in her crib).

I think for me having a lsn baby as my third child is a whole different thing to having my first (or even second) be lsn. It was very strange at first but once I clued in around 4 months old I just ran with as it made life with older children easier without the naptime pressures on top of other commitments - school run, activities etc. Plus I am very much a jump in with two feet person, so while I probably could have kept her on two naps and just extended our day we were getting the ew's and some nw's and with an already late bedtime of 8pm I needed to keep the evening time so I could get stuff done around the house!
Heidi




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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2015, 19:00:40 pm »
why is it that in so many baby sleep books, recommended wake up time and sleep time is 7am and 7pm?
Oh how I envied all the babies who woke at 7am in those sleep books!  Mine was up at 5am for most of his first 2 years. It was a killer for me.
Likewise for my lo, whilst bedtime for his 1 nap schedule is at 7pm and wu at 8am, would it be the same if wu was 830am and bedtime 730pm?
We can certainly go for that if you wanted. It would give Daddy more time to see LO in the evening. Now i can't promise it will go right to it, and can't promise your Lo will enjoy it, if he does great, if he doesn't then you find a respectful compromise, yk?
I would say to begin with lets go for the routine with the 8am WU 1pm nap and 7pm BT and then move it along from there.
Do you know when your clocks change?  Sorry honey I don't know where you are, but here our clocks change at the end of the month, which either works for or against you depending on which way it moves and where you would like to see the routine.

So if I were to start nap transition, I should let him sleep pass 730am and sleep in till whatever time he wants to, and from there, start the process of a one nap a day routine?
Yes and move the nap later.  You may need to 'wing it' for a few days which is why I posted all those days of transition times, it may not fit exactly but try not to panic.  I don't think we will be here to answer a question immediately (eg if you ask "help he only napped 1hr what do I do?" it's unlikely we get on line before you need the answer), so you must take the reigns for each day.  But we will always respond when we can.

FWIW he could have been crying today because he was UT for the nap. Mine used to do that, mostly here we say a happy wake up is an UT nap but mine was too UT to transition but too tired to do well on the short nap so would cry. A later nap and he would transition to the next sleepy cycle and wake later and happy.

Maybe copy and print the transition days, they do not have to be followed to the letter like I said before, you can probably jump on a few days right off if you get a later WU time, but if you have it printed and to hand it may help you with the prospect of change.
I would write down or print the routine you are headed toward too.

Good luck...whenever you're ready :)


Offline centrestage88

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2015, 06:13:36 am »
Oh dear. I don't know what happened. I had to go for a much later nap 1 as we went out and came back later than planned.L o was awake and very happy throughout. He did not seem tired at all. When I put him down for nap 1 at 1pm (he was a bit tired then), he slept happily but woke up at 2 pm crying angrily. He refuses to be put down now and crying. DH has to carry him to keep him happy. 

I don't know what to do now. I think i will give him a cat nap later in the carrrier.

so far today:
WU: 730am
nap 1: 1pm - 2pm ( went down happy, woke up screaming)

Hopefully we will make it through the day happy.

The clocks don't change where I am. It's always summer. =)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 06:18:11 am by centrestage88 »

Offline centrestage88

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2015, 06:16:07 am »
why is it that in so many baby sleep books, recommended wake up time and sleep time is 7am and 7pm?
Oh how I envied all the babies who woke at 7am in those sleep books!  Mine was up at 5am for most of his first 2 years. It was a killer for me.





yikes! 5am. Was yr lo a spirited one? =)

Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2015, 06:21:05 am »

The clocks don't change where I am. It's always summer. =)


The clocks don't change here either...but it sure is not always summer here lol! Well that makes things easier at least routine wise.

Just thinking the first A time was maybe a bit too long and he woke ot or os or a combo of both those. But when you are out and about sometimes those things are just unavoidable. I might be tempted to try a catnap a bit earlier than normal as after the long morning and shorter nap he may be tired sooner.


Heidi




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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2015, 06:48:11 am »
It was a bit late for his nap.  I would also go for the CN today.  Tomorrow is another day.
xx


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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2015, 06:55:01 am »
Thanks ladies! Am so lucky you 2 happen to be online now. Will try for a catnap later.

Thankfully he is happy now and happily gnawing on his toys.

Question about being too tired. i thought that it's only when lo is UT that they can't transit to the next sleep cycle. I also thought that OT would result in them refusing to nap and screaming. 

LO went down for his nap happy. I thought that that meant he was sufficiently tired but not over tired, and he would be able to transit to the next sleep cycle and sleep longer. Why has it resulted in a short one hour nap instead?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 06:56:38 am by centrestage88 »

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2015, 07:17:38 am »
There are some 'general' OT/UT signals but a lot of it needs to be detected from looking at LOs usual routine and then what happened on a particular day.  If he is used to going for a nap at 11.15 (and sometimes later due to refusal) then moving a nap to 1pm in one sudden leap is most likely too much. In addition he was out and about so more stimulated than usual. The two added together make sense for sleep disturbance.
An OT nap can result in an OT wake up at 20 mins, in this case my guess is he did a 40 min sleep cycle moved into his next cycle and then did the 20 min OT wake up.  I know it's confusing because the other day he did a 1hr nap and woke crying when put down at his usual time, more likely UT at that point - this is why we compare the 'usual' routine with what happens on an 'off' day.
And to throw further confusion into the mix - there is always the chance of teeth moving too.  In the first couple of years there can be a lot of disturbance from teeth, if only babies could give us one issue to resolve at a time it would make life so much easier, but they do insist on being living breathing growing human beings.

I would view today as "just one of those days" when things are off track rather than anything caused by the 2-1 transition, after all, at this point he doesn't know about the transition does he (unless you've been reading the thread to him ;) )

Do the CN, maybe a little earlier, do regular BT and start afresh tomorrow.
I would say if he wakes in the morning at 7.30/8.00 you could probably do nap at 11.45.  Move his nap later in increments rather than 1 big jump.


Offline centrestage88

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2015, 07:42:46 am »
Do I cap his nap tomorrow if I put him down at 11:45 am? Or do I no longer cap morningWake ups and naps? if he naps  at 1145am tomorrow, it's still a 2 nap day?

Ok, tomorrow is a new day. I will try not to get too worried.

Yikes, he's having a jab next week. It's going to mess with nap transition again. Shall view it as part and parcel of life and to try to just roll with it.


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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2015, 07:56:16 am »
Have a look at the transition plan for days 1 and 2.  Nap at 11.45 or 12 and follow the rest as a guide.

Oh jabs are tricky too. Sometimes they cry lots and sometimes they are really sleepy after.

Stay strong xx


Offline centrestage88

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2015, 11:54:43 am »
We made it through the day. :)
Tried to put him down in the cot for a cat nap at 430pm but he flatly refused, so into the carrier and he napped fr 445-515pm ( capped) was a happy boy after that.


Printed out the transition days.

Tomorrow is a new day. I will try to roll with it.

Offline centrestage88

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Re: How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2015, 12:17:36 pm »
I would say if he wakes in the morning at 7.30/8.00 you could probably do nap at 11.45.  Move his nap later in increments rather than 1 big jump.

Dear creations, I am a bit confused as to what time to put him to nap tomorrow if he wakes up 730/8am.

Was looking at the transition schedule:
Day 1,2:
If wu was 7am
Nap: 12am

Day 5,6
Wu: 7/730/8am
Nap: 1230pm

So if lo wakes up at 730/8am tomorrow, should I put him down at 1230pm for his nap or 1145/12noon? ( of course taking into acct his general disposition)

Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 12:19:13 pm by centrestage88 »