18mo Bedtime shenanigans and/or EW for MONTHS. NOTHING WORKS!!

[Mackjack]

Not even sure why I'm bothering to post as with all due respect to everyone here - you all give brilliant advice - nothing works. And I've tried everything. Seems to be that something will work for a few weeks (at absolute best) and no matter how consistent I try to be, I end up having to tweak. It's an endless cycle. We've had issues of one type or another for ages - hence this post which went on forever 1yr old - does this sound OT to you?

The main issue is he messes about at BT for ages. He will whinge, chat, shout, strip, chuck things out of the cot and eventually start crying. We only go into his room when he's properly crying. We replace what's in the cot, tell him to lay down, say goodnight and leave. Sometimes he lays down, sometimes not. Sometimes it doesn't last too long - sometimes 1.5 hrs.

So the last thing we tried a few weeks back was to bring nap time forward to 11am (from about 12ish/12.30). This helped with BT but I was worried it would eventually create EWs, which it did. We started getting WUs in the hour of 5am (not that he's ever been a late riser). And they would be 'staggered' - i.e. he'd start whinging around 5am, we'd go in and tell him to lay down, he'd go quiet for 20mins or so and then we repeat what we just did until it's clear he wants to get up properly. And that would be the start of the day.

So just recently, we moved naps to 11.30am to help with the EWs and things started going well. He would mess around at BT for maybe 30mins but we'd only have to go in once and he'd be asleep about 7pm and then wake up happy close to 6am.

I thought the messing about at BT was UT so I tried in the past putting him to bed later but he would mess about for the same amount of time which would end up with him falling asleep quite late. Recently,  I found that putting him to bed earlier (around 6.20) gives him time to mess about but still fall asleep at a reasonable time. If he falls asleep after around 7.30 we are pretty much guaranteed an EW.

So his normal decent EASY is:

WU 6am
S 11.30/11.45 for 2 hrs (we always have to wake him)
BT 6.20 ish - asleep 6.30ish

But then last night he took until 8pm to go to sleep. We had a NW at 1am (went back to sleep instantly when I went in) and then a 'staggered' EW starting at 5am - eventually got him up at 6.15 after multiple visits to his room. I thought, ok, that's fine, I'll put him to bed at a decent time tonight and he'll be tired from that EW and go to sleep quite easily. But no.

EASY today was:

WU - 5am - got him out of cot 6.15
S 11.30, protested a little but asleep 11.45 - woke him at 13.45
BT took him up at 18.20. Happily went in cot and laid straight down, no moaning. Laid there quietly for 30mins but the moaning, chatting, chucking stuff out started at 1900 and is still going on now at 19.50. So I know I'm in for an EW.

This kid shows NO sleepy signs (unless he is absolutely, completely shattered).

I have tried:
Cutting naps
Letting him nap longer
Later/earlier nap for a longer/shorter time
Changing the timing of BT

I just don't know what else to do. I cannot read him at all. Seriously, we've been battling this for months and a tweak will work for a few days, maybe weeks if we are very lucky and then BAM he starts playing around again. I tell myself to be consistent and not be tempted to change his routine just because BT has started going wrong but I honestly stick with it as long as I can until I just have to change something.

I would just really love a period of more than a couple of weeks or so where things are more or less predictable, BT doesn't make me seethe with rage and I don't get woken at ridiculous-o'clock in the morning!!!!

[Mackjack]

Was asleep about 8pm last night. Woke at 6am quite happy this morning. Nap at 11.30 and woke himself at 13.30. It's BT  now and he's been really hyper all afternoon - don't know whether to put him down now (18.40) or wait a bit longer.....

[deb]

I'd go ahead and put him down now. Once mine got a "second wind," it was all over for the evening.

With both my kids, we had either bedtime issues or EW's (or both ), and they're such different personalities (plus I knew more second time around) that we ended up handling them far far differently.

For #1, around 18 months she was a V early riser, so one exhausted morning I went in and held her to sleep, sitting on the chair beside her bed, just hoping for another 45-minute snooze for myself - the kid slept for another 90 minutes! She began sleeping in on her own after that, to the point where we had to wake her at 9AM to avoid being late for a meeting ourselves, and she went back to EW's, but not as early as they had been, so we called it a win.

Both kids had (and still have, even at 10 & 13-1/2!) a hard time winding down at BT; #2 in particular would get WIRED and physically run around. We discovered melatonin and began using very small doses to help the girls settle. Some folks find they get vivid dreams from it, but the girls seemed fine with it. (We never used it long-term.) We also learned that screen time after supper (in fact, ANY physical play after supper as well!) would interfere with sleep, so no TV or computer after 6PM/supper at that age, and more outside/broad daylight time especially midday (or as close to it as reasonable) would help the body produce its own melatonin as it go darker naturally.

Might be a couple things worth trying?

[Mackjack]

Thanks Deb. I ended up putting him down at 18.50. He was running around like a loon and then bashed himself on the sofa which made him cry - and we could instantly tell from the crying that he was tired. Hubby picked him up and he laid his head on his shoulder so we thought that was a good enough sign to take him to bed. After going in his cot, he sat up once to play with his bunny but then laid down and was just looking around the room for about 15/20mins before nodding off. So no whinging and no intervention needed.

Definitely will try your idea about getting him out and about nearer midday. Funny, I was thinking that the days this week when he's been to the park in the morning, he's slept better than when he's gone in the afternoon - but that could just be coincidence?? And actually he didn't go out this morning.

So you don't think it's a routine thing?

[deb]

Could be a combination of factors, including developmental leaps. 18 months was also the thick of J cutting her canines/eyeteeth; she was MISERABLE!

[Mackjack]

He's not miserable - but I think there's been teething on and off. Sonetime I feel like rather than causing pain,  teething just makes him go a bit doolally - anyone else get that?

So do you think I should just stick with our routine as much as I can even if we still get random BT cabarets and EWS? 

[deb]

I like to say "Fake it till you make it." Another mom who used to live on my block always used to say, "The only constant is change."

[Mackjack]

When he chucks everything out of his cot do you think I should stop putting it back in?  Because it can be a bit of a game - although he doesn't do it every night and sometimes only once or twice.  And if I don't put them back in what do I do - just go in and tell him to lay down and leave? Normally I just replace what's been chucked out, tell him to lay down, sleepytime and that's it.

[deb]

Can you do the crib-chucking stuff during the day, help him get it out of his system that way?

[lolsyb1982]

My DD has just cut her last tooth but definitely could tell by her behaviour when she was teething! Was never miserable or seemed in pain but would just act nutty and hyper and then calm down as soon as it was through...

[Mackjack]

Could do Deb - but he's been doing this for months and it's not out of his system yet!!

That's interesting lolsyb - what does she do?

Still think I'm missing something.  BT was a nightmare again tonight.  Am going to pop back tomorrow and post a few days' EASY....

[Mackjack]

I can't take this any more. It is every bl**dy night. Crying, shouting, jumping up and down,throwing everything out of the cot.

I stick to his EASY rigidly and have tried varying BT but it makes not a jot of difference to BT. It's usually

WU - between 5.50 - 6.20
S 11.30, goes down fine, cap at 2hrs
BT have been trying between 18.15 - 19.00

  We've had a few days recently where his nap has been on the go, not at the *right* time because where as I would normally try to work outings around his nap, I just think what's the point at the moment? 9 times out of 10 he goes down for naps fine but BT is at least an hour of nonsense.

So EASY the past few days has been:

THURS
WU 6am happy
S 11.30 - woke himself 13.30
S fell over just before bed so DH cuddled him and noticed he was snuggling as if tired so took him straight up at 18.50. He never shows tired signs so we took full advantage.Asleep by 19.00 MIRACLE

FRI
WU 5.40 whinging - got him back down easily. Quiet for 10 mins then we were in and out his room several times til we gave in at 6.30
S in pram 13.45 - 14.30
BT 18.50 nonsense til he fell asleep at 19.45

SAT
WU 6.30
S showed tired signs just before 11.30 (never does this). Straight to sleep about 11.30. Woke himself happy after 1hr 30
BT took up at 18.50 - nonsense til 20.00

SUN
WU 6.25
S 11.30 - messed about asleep at 12. Woke at 13.10. Seemed like he wanted to go back to sleep but wouldn't
BT can't remember when he went up but messed about til 19.30

MON
WU 5.50 - got him straight back down. Quiet for 10 mins then up about 6.05
S 9.50am - 10.30 in car
S 15.45-16.15 in car
BT tried to get him to bed early to make up for short car naps. Took him to bed at 18.15. Lots of messing about and hard crying so cuddled him at one point but still would not settle. Was in and out his room several times. Asleep 19.30

TUES
WU 7am - AMAZING
S thought I'd need to put him down later than usual due to late WU but knew i would have to cap nap as we were going put so but of a mess . PD 11.45 - messed about til 12.15. Woke him at 13.45. Still seemed tired

BT clueless as to what to do. He relaxed and got snuggly watching Night Garden so PD at 18.45. Jumping up and down in cot, threw everything out. Gave it all back to him but warned if he did it again I would take it away.  Started whinging again and threw everything out - I waited a while then went in and took away his pillow, duvet and teddies that were on the floor. Then we had upset crying from then on.  I've been shouting through his door to lay down ( yes, shouting, I am totally out of patience) - he lays down then rinse, repeat. This went on for about 30 mins then I felt bad he might be cold and have just given him back the duvet etc ( and shouted at him again). He threw it all out again and started shaking his cot so I've taken it all away again and he is crying. Going in and out of his room makes no difference so I am just downsrails watching monitor. It's 19.45

I am sick of feeling livid at BT. This has been on and off for months. Please help.

[Mackjack]

DH just arrived home to find me sitting outside the bedroom shaking with rage and DS sobbing in his cot. So he just went and cuddled him because he sounded so upset. So DS has learnt that I'm an evil shout mother and that even if I follow through on my threats to take away the things he chucks out of his cot, eventually he will get a cuddle.

Believe me, I've tried cuddling him when his messing about turns to upset crying in case he is in some way upset and it usually results in him stopping crying and reverting to mucking about.

Actually I can hear him now happily chatting even though 30 seconds ago he was inconsolable.

[cath~]

Huge ((hugs)) hon

Sounds like you're having a really hard time of it. Please don't feel bad, it is so hard handling this sort of thing every night.

BTs with my dd1 were a lot like what you described and it used to drive me nuts.

From what I've read your routine looks ok, it seems more like he just has trouble winding down and settling at BT.

With the throwing toys out thing, IIWM I'd stop putting them back in at BT. Just leave them on the floor. He'll likely get upset at first but will very soon cotton on that that's the new rule. We had a similar thing at 18 mos with dd1 taking her sleeping bag off and us putting it back on again umpteen times.  It really was a game. So we stopped doing it. She was upset at first but it was much less frustrating for us all when we just stopped playing that game.

Wrt helping him wind down, here are a few more ideas:
- conversely to what pp said, a last burst of fresh air and/or exercise after dinner and before bath/BT does seem to help my DDs be tired at BT. Too little exercise at the end of the day and suddenly they seem to want to run around more at BT (you could try this and what pp suggested and see which helps your DS)

- lots of exercise and fresh air during the day

- no sugar in the afternoon or evening (they don't really eat it anyway, but eg if there is a special desert at a family gathering it is for lunch and def never at dinner time)

- massage after bath, esp with relaxing oils like lavender

- keep things as dim as possible at bath and BT

- try some playing relaxing music/sounds to help him wind down and nod off

- make sure his room is really dark

(((Hugs))) again

HTH x

[Mackjack]

Thank you so much for your kind words. I feel horrid at the mo.

He's really hard to wind down actually.  I would be more than happy to stay in his room for a while and cuddle/sing lullabies but generally, I read him a story in his room ( which he may or may not pay attention to) then give him a cuddle but it lasts about 2 seconds before he is pushing to get out of my arms.  He just seems "wired" a lot of the time. Totally agree re sugar - I don't give him any sugar at all at any time of day. He was allowed a piece of cake on his bday and that's the only time he's ever tasted it!

We had the sleeping bag game too a few months back - that's what led us to change him to a duvet. Will definitely try what you say about leaving his things on the floor. And some days he's out and about loads, others not but I can't see a link at the moment.

So as well as your suggestions do you think I should continue to (try to!) stick with his routine as it is ?

[Mackjack]

He fell asleep at 20.20 last night. Did his usual thing this morning where he woke at 5.50 whinging. Laid down as soon as I went in his room. Went quiet for a while then was up at 6.15.

Just put him down for his nap at 11.40 and he is whinging, blowing raspberries, has chucked everything out the cot and is banging the cot against the wall interspersed with the odd quiet minute.

[Mackjack]

I went back into his room once and told him to lay down, it's sleepy time. I did not given back what he'd thrown out of his cot. He continued to sit there whinging. I could see on the monitor he is shattered - yawning and head lolling about. So I sat outside his room repeating our sleepy phrase and hes just gone to sleep after 30 mins.
Usually he's good at naptimes but more and more we are getting the same behaviour as at BT. What I did just now is better than the shameful shout fest I did last night but I need to get to the bottom of his behaviour - I can't be doing this every sleep time! !!

[deb]

Sometimes it's just developmental and all we can do is wait for it to pass. 

Meanwhile, as much physical activity during the day as you can get it (I always found that swimming brought on great sleep!), especially outdoors with lots of bright daylight, and as low-key after supper/6PM (that was our family's guideline, anyway) as possible, without ANY screen time after supper either (blue light from TV/computer/device interferes with melatonin production) might also make an impact.

[Mackjack]

Thanks Deb. Right - am going to try to run him ragged this afternoon and will pull the plug on the TV. I try not to let him watch too much but it's hard sometimes when DD is always putting it on.

He just cried out at the 30 min mark - classic OT sign I think. ..

[cath~]

Yeah, I agree with Deb. Sometimes it is *just* developmental.

IIWM I'd prob be inclined to stick to normal routine unless you think he's getting a buildup of OT, in which case I'd try to do EBT for him to catch up.

Hope the physical activity helps this afternoon!

[Mackjack]

3.15am and I'm laying in bed trying not to cry. For one reason or another I failed to get him out for exercise yesterday afternoon. He woke from his nap unhappy sfter 1hr 45 - still tired but couldn't get back to sleep.Had to go out in the evening so my DM put him to bed. I told her to go for EBT due to unhappy nap WU. Amazingly he messed about for 15 mins but was asleep at 6.30pm.

2am and he woke. Went in and he seemed very much awake - wanted a drink and then laid down. Keeps sitting up in his cot and moaning. When I go in,  he just seems v awake and wants a drink. No crying. He doesn't seem tired. So after all this time of me thinking 'at least we're not getting NWs' am I faxed with this now??? What do I do tomorrow? ?? Cut the nap? I don't even know what time nap to aim for anymore let alone BT.

[Mackjack]

*faced*

[deb]

Just on the off-chance that his teeth are bothering him, can you try pain meds before sleep times and see if it makes a difference? Around this time Josie was waking at 2AM every night for about 3 months (crying for OraGel for her teeth); I got to the point where I had a syringe of meds ready to go when she woke. (It wasn't till much later that it occurred to me that I could have tried a "dream med" but by then it had passed.)

[Mackjack]

I'll give anything a go but tbh he just seemed awake and UT last night. It went on from 2-4am. Then he woke again at 5.45 but after I went in he went back down til 6.45

[Mackjack]

Today I put him down for his nap slightly later as he got up later than usual this morning (6.45) although it was a broken night.  He was asleep by 12.20pm no problem at all. I'm only going to let him have 1hr 30 - partly because I'm terrified of another 2hr UT waking like last night and partly because we need to go out. Does that sound a good idea? .Then I thought I'd do BT at 6.30 - early enough to compensate for the shorter nap and/or if he messes around like normal it's also early enough that by the time he's stopped messing about it won't (hopefully) be stupidly late.

Any thoughts?  Would you do the same or not? ?

[deb]

Worth a try! Fingers crossed for you! 

[cath~]

Hugs for the long NW.  Hope it was a one-off.

does sound like it could be ut. 

How did it go with the shorter nap? I do agree that's worth a try if the NW was ut.

If he's got developmental stuff going on though then that could also be a cause.  However , I think a shorter nap is worth a try to rule out ut.

((Hugs)) you're having a tricky time of it atm

[Mackjack]

Well I capped the nap at 1hr 30 and then took him for 2 hrs of running around like a loon at soft play in the afternoon. He was asleep just before 7pm, brief wu at 3am for a drink then back to sleep til 6.45!!! Amazing but I'm definitely not counting my chickens yet...

Today I put him down for his nap about 12.15 - later than usual as he WU in the AM later than usual (I think 5.5 hrs A time in the AM seems to be about right).  He messeD about a little for his nap but was asleep by 12.45. I was going to cap at 1hr30 again but he woke himself happy at about 1hr 20. 2hrs of running around in the park this afternoon and I'm going to try BT just before 7pm again....

[Mackjack]

Also meant to say he didn't fuss at all at BT last night....

[deb]

Sounds good - now to make sure it's not just a one-off.

[Mackjack]

Yes that's what I'm afraid of.

I just put him to bed about 6.50 which is a smidge later than last night.  His nap today was later than yesterday but slightly shorter by about 5/10 mins so I wasnt sure whether to put him down for BT earlier/later etc

Anyway, he didn't mess about - no jumping, shouting, chucking stuff out- but he did sit up/stand up and cry - a whingy tired cry. Had to go in and cuddle him,  then go back in and give him a drink ( it is mighty hot at the moment). He's gone quiet at 7.25. So is that OT now? Gosh, it's such an extremely fine balance!!!

[deb]

LOL

Sometimes it's a balance, and sometimes IME it's....well, SOMETHING! There are days I got SOOOO MAD at the girls for not reading the darned books and knowing how long to sleep!

OK, sometimes I still get irked. LOL

[Mackjack]

Exactly! Can he not just READ THE BLOOMIN BOOK!!!

[cath~]

Pleased you had a good night. FXd last night was good too X

I caught DD1 reading the BW book the other week.  Only nearly 5 yrs late

Hope you've found something that works.

Fwiw at this age lots of ppl find a set nap time easier than A times.  So eg you could go for 12.15 am and only bring it fwd by say 30 mins if he has a really bad night.  You might find it easier rather than thinking of A times all the time.

Here's a sticky:
Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When