Need some BTDT and sympathy from parents of EWers / long NWers

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Ok, have had a look. We were well into one nap days by 9 months, but a catch up 2 nap day looked like this :

WU: 6
A: 4hr 30 - 4hr 45
S: 10.45 - 12.15
A: 3hrs ish
S: 20 - 30 minutes @ 3ish
A: 3hr 30
S: 7ish

I obviously wrongly remembered the time he had to have finished sleeping by (not 2.30 then) - either that or I hadn't worked that out yet! We did get long nws if I did the above routine for too many days though.  He had to have some one nap days thrown in so he was tired enough for some 2 nap days too.

HTH x

[Emami]

I will be back, thanks for stopping by cbusmama and LL&J.  But for now I just wanted to say SHE SLEPT THROUGH LAST NIGHT!! First time in months, and with a 6:20 WU, so not too early either. I feel positively perky

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Oh wow, how lovely!

[Cbusmama]

This is wonderful!!!!  There must be something in the water.  My LO (will be 11 months on Sept has slept through the night the past 3 nights in a row!!!

[Emami]

Well, I am still a bit nonplussed about what works or doesn't work for my little pest, but I will take last night and hope it's the start of something and not a one off!  I haven't been able to be too consistent over the last week with trying short am long pm nap just because of life getting in the way, but DD1 will be starting school next week so we will be settling into a new normal.

One of the best nights we've had in the last few days was when Annabel had a one nap day.  It was unintentional but we were busy in the afternoon and she didn't fall asleep at all despite plenty of walking and opportunity in the buggy.  I still absolutely don't think she's ready to be on one nap, but I will push it as soon as she seems like she could handle it.

Aside from routine she has cut two teeth in the last couple of days and is generally happier.  She has stopped the compulsive standing and has also figured out how to get herself back down, and has resettled herself at night too.  Still after a long time of being awake, but much less intervention needed.  So maybe maybe maybe it's just been a horrible run of teeth and developmental stuff, and things will improve... at least until the next time.

Cbusmama, I'm glad you are finally getting some rest!  Long may it continue for both of us.

LL&J - wow, Jack really is LSN! I think you did so well and are brave to figure it out and go with it.  I'm still not sure with Annabel if I've never got it quite right for her or if it's just the way things are for now as she definitely seems very affected by things other than routine.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, Jack has always been massively affected by non routine stuff too.  I wasn't that brave with him tbh - I had a lot of encouragement from the lovely BWers here to push A times and I ended up just doing lots of trial and error in a controlled way, just to try and figure him out. It did drive me mad for a long time.  He is very lsn though, yes. Now at 2.5 he's sleeping about the same amount as my little girl, who will be 6 in November.  It's crazy....

Sounds like your recent issues could well be developmental.  Fingers crossed for a nice sleepy phase now! 

[Emami]

I am hesitant to say things are better overall because last time I said that it all got worse again! But we are basically back at the same point as when i started this thread, ie. STTN until 5-something. Naps are good, nights are improved but short. I much prefer EWs to long NWs, but the thing is she doesn't seem ready to get up that early (unlike before when there was no resettling her).

The last three days we have managed to get a good routine of short am long pm nap, and a 4hr A time to bed which I would think would be enough?  It's been WU 7:30, nap 10:30-11, nap 1:30-3:30, BT 7:30.  But the 7:30 WU has come after an early start and resettle.

The last 3 mornings she has woken at 5:00, 5:30 and 5:15, cried a bit, shuffled a bit (but no more standing, yay!), and taken a long time to go back to sleep. It's been about 6:30 each time. I'm at the point where if she's going to be an EWer I will get her up and live with it, but she has clearly been trying to go back to sleep. I would love for that extra hour to come from 5:30-6:30 instead of 6:30-7:30.  So it would be an 11hr night, 13.5hrs total. Her second nap has lengthened since capping the first one, before it was pretty rare for her to sleep 2hrs. I don't want to cap both naps, but if she's going to max out at 13hrs maybe I need to trim half an hour somewhere to get the 11hr night?

[jessmum46]

I'd wonder about trimming the pm nap to 1.5h or keeping the 2h but pushing for an 8pm bedtime instead?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I'd wonder about trimming the pm nap to 1.5h or keeping the 2h but pushing for an 8pm bedtime instead?

Yes, I think that's where I'd get the extra A time in too. 

With the EWs, one thing I found was that J used to EW on day 2 if on day 1 I'd resettled an EW. Unless he resettled really quickly  (in under 30 minutes, say), he'd treat the 6.30-7.30 am sleep as a nap and EW the next day, no matter what the rest of the day looked like.  Just something to bear in mind or play about with....

[Emami]

Ugh, you think it could be like a first nap even though I treat it like a NW, ie dark, quiet, no talking etc? I definitely don't want to perpetuate the EW, and on the days when she really has been up at 5ish I don't put her down before 9:30 for that reason.

Well who knows what tonight will bring.  She's getting the extra A time for sure as she did her half hour this morning, and was 40mins into her second nap when DH decided it would be a good time to build a chest of drawers in our room right next door and woke her up. So two short naps and will probably have OT WUs, although tbh I don't know what they look like as opposed to her usual WUs. It's all just a blur of awakeness!  And she's been perfectly happy today with so little sleep, she gives me no clues this girl.

[Emami]

Ok seriously, she KNOWS I said things were better. Tonight is just awful. She was awake 9:30-11:30 (much earlier than any usual WUs), up again at 2:30, now it's 4am and she's still awake. A lot of crying, which is also unusual. She just won't settle and nothing works. DH and I are arguing in the middle of the night, we are both exhausted and disagree on what we should be doing. I don't know what's up with her. I think if I was reading someone else's post I would wonder if these kind of NWs were discomfort but she's had calpol and ibuprofen just in case, she's been fine all day, she has no trouble settling for naps these days, she can put herself to sleep. I'm at a loss. Sorry, I know I'm going round in circles but we need some sleep and DD1 is starting school this week, I would really like to focus more on her and I just don't feel like I'm functioning well enough to be a good mum

[jessmum46]

Big hugs Emma, that's so tiring and draining A sounds a lot like B, he has been a tricky customer with his night sleep even though he's been by far my better napper. 

How are you trying to settle her at NWs?  Do you think there could be any SA in the mix?  I also wouldn't rule out teeth even with meds not helping much, B is AWFUL when teething even when 'properly' medicated, he still wakes and can be really tough to settle and need a lot of help.  I just don't think his pain threshold is very high

What was your day in terms of routine?

[Emami]

She could be teething, it's been fairly constant so far. She has 6 teeth 9.5 months, which seems a lot to me? C only had 2 at this point.

We used to settle NWs by patting / bouncing her bum but it was taking longer and longer and we were having to get her all the way back asleep rather than just calming her otherwise it all just started again. This is where DH and I are differing now, as I'm not prepared to spend 2hrs bending over her cot every time she wakes up. It's back breaking and its not achieving much anyway. I want to get back to her resettling herself at night, so I've been letting her know I'm there, hand on the back but no bouncing, and then lying on her floor and trying to use my voice to soothe her. I can't say as that's been working either but DH doesn't give me the chance. Because she's still been crying with me in there (and she's loud) he thinks it's pointless and I'm just lying there doing nothing. Whereas I'm thinking she may be crying but she's not alone and at some point she will go back to sleep without all the intervention.  He's not too open to that at 3am though, and last night he came in and started patting her (literally standing over me!). It doesn't get her to sleep for ages but it does keep her quiet. Anyway I left him to it, there is zero point in me being there if he's going to do his thing regardless. So now he's in a strop because he was in there for hours and had to go to work this morning, I was in our bed nice and comfy and he's the one who got left to deal with her. Whatever.

Not sure about SA, she doesn't get left to cry, doesn't seem too bothered during the day and she knows we're there at night and she still doesn't settle.  Last night could've been OT as she had a rubbish day, but at the same time it's not like these NWs are unusual yk? Although she's never had 2 long ones in one night before so that was fun. Yesterday was WU 7:30, nap 10:30-11, nap 2-2:40 (DH woke her banging around so this is all his fault anyway lol), BT 7. I didn't want to do BT earlier even though she would've gone easily because of her EWs, she doesn't seem to tack on.

This morning she was up at 7, perfectly happy, full of beans after 8hrs broken sleep. And DD1 I woke at 8 after a full 12hrs. Was two great sleepers really too much to ask?!

[jessmum46]

This could be B, honestly. They sound so similar! Fwiw he had 9 teeth by 9.5 months and has got all but 2y molars now at just 15 months today

So I know you know but I guess you and DH need a conversation so you're on the same page. When B was NWing all the time we took the view that he needed to settle himself so we did hang back a bit (not leaving to cry obviously but also being aware he was LOUD and it wasn't necessarily 'I need you') and if we did go in we would try to 'be' there as you said but not really 'do' anything much, just enough to reassure him he wasn't alone.  I needed to know he could do it and it wasn't a prop if you know what I mean?  Would DH be willing to give it a go do you think?

[Emami]

I think DH will be on board, he's a lot more reasonable during daytime hours! Last night was just really rough and I do understand him wanting to do something that at least keeps her quiet, but I told him flat out that I'm not doing it that way any more. Nobody is getting enough sleep (except C!), and it's been going on ages now. So he is either going to have to put up with some crying or he'll be the one bending over her every night. He has the rest of this week off work, so we have 6 nights with no morning obligations to hopefully make some progress before he is back in the office and C starts school full time.

So this morning I put her down after 3hrs and haven't capped her nap as we are out this afternoon and she never sleeps a long nap away from home. I know 3hrs is short but I figured she would be tired after last night. She's done 1h10, so UT? Do I need to keep that morning A longer regardless of how the night went? I'm sure she'll do a short nap this afternoon, and then we're not on track for the night. Again.

I know B is still prone to EW but his nights are generally OK now?  How long did it take to get him settling at night once you got to the point that you were leaving him to it a bit more? I think that will be the hardest thing with DH - he will want to change things and try something else if it doesn't get better quickly, whereas I think we really need some consistency