LO has to scream himself to sleep

[trimbler]

Yes sorry I remember you saying that about ibuprofen, but as long as you haven't already maxed out on Calpol during the day, you can give another dose at night if needed, but be aware it will take some time to kick in.

I'd definitely try the p foods, works wonders for my LOs (and me too, if that's not tmi!), many healthcare professionals would look at dietary solutions first before medicating. Our DD seemed to have problems with oats for a while (assuming you're using an oat-based porridge?), their tummies are so new to all this that it can take a while to get used to all these things, and there's really no hurry just yet But if he likes his porridge you could try adding puréed prunes or apricots to it - I've always found these the most effective I used to give DD dilute apple juice before meals when she was younger - off a spoon as I didn't want her to come to expect it from a cup it's good to have a few things up your sleeve for emergency relief

[Atomic1010]

Thanks :-) yeh gave him some puréed Prunes this morning with his porridge as he does love it. I think it's wheat based. He has sweet potato on the menu for later as I read that's good for keeping them regular too. I don't understand why dr decided to medicate first. I wish I had asked. I can only assume he wanted to get LO going again sooner rather than later in case it was contributing to the rubbish nights. I will ask him tomorrow.

So not looking forward to bedtime tonight 

[trimbler]

Yeah I'm not against medication but would always try diet first for this sort of thing, sometimes meds are necessary but it didn't sound like the benefit was worth the side effects in this case

Hope the night goes better than you fear

[Atomic1010]

Had an awful last few days including 3 trips with LO to the hospital as he had come down with a nasty bug. He has also had another tooth through and one more almost there.

His constipation hasn't improved really although he isn't eating much in the way of solids so the poor chap is thoroughly miserable. Nights are awful as he won't sleep anywhere but on me or DH, it took us two hours to get him down in the cot at one point last night as he just kept waking as soon as his head hit the cot mattress, so another prop we have to train him off. He is so uncomfortable in the night we wakes every half hour at least . Day naps are a struggle too. He has been ill for almost a week now so hoping it will improve soon as I'm getting even less sleep although got my mum staying for a few days now to help as dr said he was worried about me and how exhausted I look.

I did explain LO hasn't been sleeping well for months and I'm up every 2 hrs with him most nights and had done some sleep training but it was on hold because of teething. But he said I should sleep train through teething etc etc and how I shouldn't have let it go on for months. I know he was trying to be helpful but I felt rubbish after as he is prob right and if I'd cracked the sleep training maybe LO would be easier to get back in the cot now. Never mind - have to ride the virus out and then hard core sleep training begins :-/

[trimbler]

Oh dear (((hugs))) so glad you have your mum with you now, please do make the most of her Tbh we don't really advise 'hard core' sleep training when they're ill or in big discomfort, they may need meds or teething gel or noses clearing or just a cuddle for reassurance, it is important to meet their needs when they have genuine ones, as it sounds like your DS does right now. Really hard though, I'm just glad your mum is with you and hope that she will enable you to get some of that rest and sleep that you so desperately need!

Did you get some alternative meds from the doc for the constipation? We got through lots of puréed prunes and apricot with DS, you could also try apple juice or white grape juice or even prune juice... Do you remember when the constipation started? Had you given him something new, or I'm larger quantities than before? I know DD struggled with wheat for a while, and even now we try to limit it to one portion a day, although that's probably unnecessary now it's still early days with solids really, so don't be afraid to eliminate something from his diet for a few days and see if it makes any difference. Sorry I can't remember if he has any formula?

[Atomic1010]

Gosh no I won't be starting the sleep training until he is well again as you say it's not fair to him if he needs support. Sorry if I gave that impression. Just have to go with all the props for now and then get him back on track as you say. I'm really worried about it as every sleep involves a prop at the moment but hopefully it will go better than expected.

The Drs have given us movicol to try for the constipation which is fine but needs to be mixed with food and he is off his solids at the moment and doesn't have a bottle. I'm wondering if the baby porridge is the source of the constipation so taken him off it and am following your advice about the prunes and peaches until he is eating more :-)

[trimbler]

Oh no I didn't think you gave that impression, I was just sad about how you felt when the doctor had said you should have been sleep training so I wanted to encourage you to keep doing what you're doing

Hope he's better soon, keep us posted!

[Atomic1010]

Thanks trimbler. Yes I felt sad too and had a bit of a cry when I got home as he made me feel bad for stopping sleep training when I thought LO was teething. I guess his intentions were good but to call me into a private room for a chat about how exhausted I looked and why was awkward. Maybe he had a point and I shouldn't have let it go on for as long as I did, but I did what I thought was right.

Anyway thankfully my health visitor has been so supportive and called me earlier this week to see how things were and she has said she will help with the sleep training when we are ready.

LO is almost 100% now, so I think I will start some sleep training on Thursday. Probably just in the days first as he is still bungled up and uncomfortable at night. However, tonight and last night I thought I would let him try settle himself which he managed without much crying so that's good

Have you got any suggestions for how to sleep train him, particular when he wakes in the night as he was 3.5 months younger when I did some training a while ago and I'm not sure what I was doing then is ok now he is almost 8 months old. He is still in his cot in our bedroom.

I really really want to get us on track so he is only waking once or twice a night by Christmas time as that would make me a v happy mummy! :)hopefully that's not too unrealistic?

[trimbler]

Great to hear he's almost better now I'm sorry I can't quite remember how you 're currently getting him to sleep, or where we were before all this illness? I seem to remember you had used shh pat with some success? This would always be a good place to start, even if you have to modify it now that he's older. Can a baby be too old for sh-pat?

Are you currently feeding him to sleep mostly? It sounds like he remembers how to settle himself, if he managed ok at BT the last couple of nights - that's great I'd continue doing that if you can, since the way they fall asleep at BT can really help set the expectations for the rest of the night. If you'd rather focus attention on naps first, then by all means continue to feed at night if you're more comfortable with that, you could also try a gentler approach to the nights if you want, if sorting out naps and routine doesn't help with the nights anyway. Gentle Removal Plan

Another tool you could use during the day, especially if he has been able to settle himself previously (I think that's true?) is wi/wo, which can be used alongside PUPD if shh pat etc no longer works at all. Have a read of this and see what you think: Shush-pat - How to

Could you post your most recent day or two? Getting the right routine can go a long way, I know the ideal keeps changing as they grow! I'm afraid I may not be able to get on here tomorrow, working a long day, but will pop on at some point on Friday to find out how Day 1 went

[Atomic1010]

thanks so much for the links and info which was very helpful. Hope your day at work was good despite being a long one!

before the illness started i had used shh pat before but once teething started i started feeding to sleep more and more in the day until doing it exclusively for every nap in the past week. despite the sleep training previously I have never managed to reduce the NWs by much.

Have decided to go cold turkey on bf to sleep, unless he is really struggling to settle like just now when he had only had half an hours sleep in 7 hours as we were out and about and I felt it would be unfair to do sleep training.  I have also decided to do sleep training at night as he seems well enough.

So this is how it went on Day 1
5.55 Awake
7 Porridge
7.30 Bf
8.50 took up to bed slept from 9.30 -11.30 after taking a short while to settle so pretty good
1.30 bf and small amount of solids
2.15 took up to bed slept from 2.30 - 3 and woke up v upset but couldnt resettle
4.30 bf
6 solids and another top up bf
6.10 took up then 6.40 asleep so pretty good

Last night he woke at 9pm so i fed him as 3 hours since last feed, 11.30 manged to pat back to sleep, 12.30 - fed him again as decided to feed every 3 hours min, 2.15 - 4.45 he woke up and took me ages to resettle as was very unhappy at not getting picked up. After he cried for 1hr 15 on and off I decided that as he was struggling to settle and it was almost feeding time I would feed him in the hope it would help him go. It didnt but from 4 he did try on and off to sleep and did settle a couple of times for 5-10 mins but then at 4.30 he got v upset so rocked to sleep. Woke again at 5.30 arrghh. Then he woke at 6.30am for the day. When I changed his nappy in the morning his side felt damp and I wonder if he had wet himself in the long NW and that was in part to blame for the length of time we were up?

Overall I am very happy with the day training, and earlier today he fell asleep within 10 mins by himself.  I am a bit disheartened about what happened last night but do appreciate it will take some time. I think the nights will be hardest to crack and i hope my decision to feed every 3 hrs is appropriate. I think at this age 1-2 night feeds isnt uncommon, so i guess i could strecth it out but at the moment im torn as he isnt eating as much of his solids since his illness.

[trimbler]

Hey well done that must have been tough at times but you stuck with your plan Great news on the daytime settling I agree it may well have been the wetness that kept him awake in the night, plus of course the deviation from what he's used to. Tricky, right, when you're trying not to pick him up! Tbh if DD has a long nw and is still upset after a while of 'shh pat' (albeit quite a different form now! More wi/wo with gentle hand and reassuring voice etc), I will pick up as that would soon show things like being wet, or a dirty nappy, or whatever.

I did wonder about his feeds during the day? Do you normally offer milk when he first wakes in the morning, or after a nap? I just thought that perhaps if you did the standard 'EASY' thing with E coming straight after S, then he might end up taking more milk overall in the afternoon/evening, and not need so much at night. Do you feel he's taking quite a lot at night? Don't worry so much about the solids, the milk is the main source of nutrition at this age. Have a little look at some sample routines if you haven't already: chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months

You 'll probably see ups and downs with the sleep training but stick with your plan and he'll get the hang of it

[Atomic1010]

That's a good idea about feeding after naps. I used to do that but think I got out of the habit when he started solids. I'm the one dictating night feeds as we are training as I don't want him to be crying because he is hungry and not knowing although possibly feeding every three hours is more than necessary but just thought I'd do it as a starting point.

Last night similar to previous night - he was awake from 3-5 and this time I checked he wasn't wet :-)

It seems he is trying to settle once he has got quite upset but something seems to wake him soon after he has gone to sleep for 5-10 mins and then he woke at 6 and 7. He has often had a two hr NW at this time of night and it's def not because he sleeps too much in the day. Yesterday he only slept 1.5hrs. I just can't see us getting past this at the moment!

[Atomic1010]

Ok so the day sleep training is going well and so is bedtime. However, night wake ups aren't reducing although he has settled himself back to sleep a couple of times with some shh pat from me.  This was last night
6.50 asleep
8.30 woke crying and sh pat to sleep
9.30 woke crying - fed
11.50-12.40 resettled eventually with shh pat. But kept dropping off then waking up every few minutes later.
2.45 - sh pat back to sleep
3.45 - fed
5.15 awake and couldn't resettle.

How long do you think it will take for number of NWs to reduce?

What is wi/wo? Is it walk in walk out?

[trimbler]

Oh dear (((hugs))) you must be so tired! Great news on sleep training going well during the day/BT though, let's celebrate that Could you post how the days have been going before those nights? Perhaps we can find some clues? I've asked if anyone else has suggestions, always good to have some fresh eyes Any discomfort, do you think? Are these long NWs mostly crying and active resettling from you, or are they mostly him trying to resettle and being quiet for a while and then fussing/crying again?

[Atomic1010]

Unfortunately I don't keep an ongoing record of the days, but I can start tomorrow? The long night wakings are mostly him being awake then trying to settle and crying, then being awake again....I wonder if it is discomfort as he does have silent reflux which would explain why he then wakes so soon after although I really don't know for sure. Sometimes he does have wind..

How long do you think it will take for the number of NWs to reduce?
Thanks again