Author Topic: Omg I'm new to this.  (Read 7122 times)

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Offline LadyA

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Omg I'm new to this.
« on: August 27, 2015, 02:44:01 am »
I just got my book and am sitting here almost in tears thinking I have totally screwed myself. My kid is almost 8 months exclusively by and barely takes solids... She eats every 2 hours pretty much on the dot and is the worst nap/sleeper ever. She was swaddled till about 5 months when she started to overheat and roll. Ever since we stopped swaddling she is constantly waking up rubbing her face. She will only sleep on her tummy :( which is fine she can roll but I have to put her to sleep on her tummy. During the 6 month growth spurt I started a million more bad habits from moving her to my bed and holding her hand till she falls asleep. She sleeps less now and we have just had the worst month of refusing to go to sleep waking constantly and some nights I have to hold her to sleep. I have failed immensely but she is my first and I was doing what I did out of sanity. My husband has to sleep he cannot help so transitioning her to this schedule and crib is all up to me and to be honest I'm scared I cannot do it. I tried to move her to her crib I could get her to sleep but she would wake constantly and need to be helped back to sleep wether it was feeding or holding her hand.... I was a walking zombie after a few days :( I would like to implement a 8 am waking easy schedule. This seems to be her natural waking time daily so it should help ease her into it but I'm not starting till next week since we have guests right now and I do not have 1-2 weeks to just invest. I would like to start now and extend feedings at least to 3 hour intervals to start. Do I just do it by 10 min a day? Any advice for this mom is great. I want to do more solids but i am an avid breastmilj before solids person. I believe that breastmilj or formula should be main source of nutrition till age 1. So I would like to keep that as part of her schedule maybe breastmilj then 30 min later solids. I'm still nervous about lots of solids as she has always had constipation issues mainly from her dairy allergy that took months to diagnose. So we are dairy free but sometimes she still skips a day which makes for a long uncomfortable night. How do I deal with that and this schedule? Like today she only got breastmilk because she hasn't gone in 2 days and finally did before bed. I do not want to back her up even more so solids are a slow transition. Would a 3 hour easy schedule be better for us even though she is 8 months on the 1st.... Sorry I'm probably going on and on but I need her to get out of my bed and I love the idea of a better routine. We have a routine but it's lax and could use some firming up which would be greatly improved by her sleeping so I can sleep too. I think I have vented it all please help.

Offline becj86

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 04:09:44 am »
Hi, welcome :)

You've not done anything that can't be undone gently and with respect for your daughter.

In general, at 8 months, there's a big range of "normal" routines, so really its about having a routine and creating that predictability for LO. Here's some info:
Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

When planning to make big changes like you are, its helpful to take into account LO's temperament.
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

I want to do more solids but i am an avid breastmilj before solids person. I believe that breastmilj or formula should be main source of nutrition till age 1.
This is very much consistent with recommendations around the world and what we recommend here too, with solids ~30min-1hr after milk. Have you read about baby-led weaning? It sounds like you might prefer to go down this path. Baby-Led Weaning

Can you please post what a day looks like at the moment in terms of sleeps and feeds? That will help work out if we're tweaking or suggesting wholesale changes to your day. eg.
8am - wake up, breast feed
10 - breastfeed
11 - nap (45 min)
12 - breastfeed
etc.
8pm - bed time
wakings: 9, 12, 3-5

WRT breastfeeds - are there times she eats more than others? I suspect if you're still feeding that regularly at this age, there's misinterpretation of cues or discomfort involved. I know my son would root for a feed when he was tired, in pain or upset as well as when he was hungry. Does she have any signs of reflux? Reflux 101 - General reflux information I ask because it sometimes is associated with dairy intolerance and can cause all kinds of sleep issues and LO's often want to feed frequently to soothe the burning.

It is really important not to try a 3hr EASY routine - she will not be tired enough to nap at those times and she cannot be expected to sleep whilst undertired - IMO, its unfair to try to sleep train until you have a routine reasonably in place so you know she's actually tired when you're expecting her to learn to go to sleep.

Hugs, you must be exhausted.

Offline creations

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2015, 09:00:44 am »
Hello and welcome to BW :)
Please please do not feel that you have failed or did anything wrong - everything you have done is out of love for your baby and doing your absolute best for your whole family, no one can fault that in any way. Please try not to be so hard on yourself. Babies don't come with instruction manuals, we all just do the best we can at the time and with the information and support that is available at that time.  You've responded to your baby and been there for her when she needed you - and that's really the best thing you could ever do!

WRT the 2hr feeds.  When LOs begin solids (usually around 6 months) feed times can seem to be very frequent, more so when they move to 2 or 3 meals per day.  I can remember feeling I did nothing all day but feed my DS, milk, solids, milk, solid...
When you post your current EAS times we might be able to see times where a solids feed would fit in naturally instead of the BF.  BF is absolutely the most important food for your LO and I'm not suggesting you just stop the BFs but if they are every 2hrs (when a LO this age can usually go 4hrs between milk feeds) she might actually be happy to have a solids meal in place of 1 or 2 of them.
In the BW book Tracy recommends a 'top up' of milk after a solids feed, it can look like solids are being given first but actually this is in *addition* to the regular 4 hrly feed, not instead of. So for instance E may look like:
8.00 WU BF
9.00 breakfast solids (1hr after milk) with a milk top up offered after solids. Depending how long your LO spends eating solids (mine took 45-60mins!) this milk top up may turn out to be 10am which is the 2hrly interval you have mentioned between BF. Do you see in this way you are not making your baby go without but it is also not considered as 'snacking' in the way that a much younger baby might snack or root for a BF for reasons other than hunger.
12.00 BF
1.00 lunch solids followed by a milk top up
and so on.

I am sure you will be aware of how LO accepts the solids and be able to follow her lead with meals and feel comfortable that you are not letting her go without.  Switching 1 or 2 of the BF (and offering a top up) might actually be a smoother transition at this point rather than trying to extend the time between feeds by 10 mins per day.

It is quite normal for a BF baby to skip a day (or more) of poo, and for bowel movements to change when solids begin. As you have concerns about constipation how about offering foods which naturally help her go?  My DS loved those soft ready to eat prunes for a snack when he was a baby. I did BLW so offered them as finger food, with the prunes, because they are a bit slippery I helped hold it whilst he gummed down on the soft flesh.
There are some foods which are more constipating, mine would have very firm poos with carrots so I made sure not to offer those every day or to balance it up with prunes.
At this point a prune could be considered a 'meal'.  Or just one or two wedges of a vegetable and one or two wedges of fruit. 'Meals' do not need to be large or even contain all the food groups at this age, but it is also considered important to introduce foods in a timely manner (ie not too late). So whilst it is not vital she eats lots of solids, I would recommend regular/routine meal times where solid foods are offered daily.

There is so much information on this site, please feel free to look around, but also just post questions you have so we can help you out without you being overwhelmed by all the FAQs :)


Offline LadyA

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2015, 13:43:48 pm »
Ok so right now she is up around 7-8 she eats then plays for about an hour or 2 then usually eats again then naps. When up from nap it's playing again for 1-2 hours and eats... Then play nap eat... Honestly I have no clue what it all looks like besides that at 2 hours she pretty much eats again. I have tried blw but she was choking and gagging to the point of throwing up so I have stopped and mainly just giving purres. She does have reflux and is on meds for that. I have had them adjusted to her weight and age. I could definetly try the solids an hour later she will usually scarf down 2 oz maybe 3. I am even willing to do twice a day and I try to give stuff that will promote bowels. Like purees with pear apple and what not. But if she goes a day after solids without popping she is miserable and I always end up giving juice to help get it through :( she will be up all night cause she hasn't gone. And that's just from one solid feed that day. I think right now it's more like this

E- 8 am
A- 8:15-10
E - 10
S- 10:10-11 if I'm lucky
A- 11-12
E-12-12:10
A-12:15-2
E-2-2:10
S-2:10-3 same if I'm lucky to get 50 min....
A-3-4
E-4-4:10
A-4:10-6
Bed is by 7 so this if off varying that she does go 2 and a half hour sometimes but I guess this would be my semblance of a schedule... Sometimes she naps for 30 min sometimes hour and a half. There are times she only wants to be up an hour before a nap though :( but since she is not sleeping good I can't blame her.
So if I'm understanding correctly these solid meals do not have to be much. And they should help her transition to a 4 hour schedule. Ugh that seems like so long but I like the idea of topping off solids that helps me. I do have the baby finger food snacks for her to munch on. I wanna go back to blw but I'm so scared about the Choking
I'm gonna take the temper ant quiz but I already know I have a high needs baby on my hands and this is going to be a small world of hell to change 😩 but since I'm not starting till after my guests leave I am gonna extend bf times at least some while I'm waiting :)

Offline becj86

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2015, 00:46:32 am »
Ok, so the day actually looks pretty good for this age, you may prefer to do one longer nap and a short nap but with a 12-13hr night, 2 shorter naps might be all she needs. Is she sleeping through the night? If not, when is she waking, for how long does she stay awake and how does she behave during those night waking(s)?

I'd say most of what you're looking to do at this point is to increase that first awake time so you get a longer nap. If you're looking to have her waking for the day at 8am, bedtime could reasonably be 8 or 9pm which would also encourage longer naps and allow longer awake times which are what help her get properly tired for a good night's sleep.

So if I'm understanding correctly these solid meals do not have to be much.
You're right, solids are really for tasting and fun til age 1 so its not too important how much they're taking in (and development of mouth muscles, etc. hence the need to move from purses to textured and finger foods by ~12 months).

I have tried blw but she was choking and gagging to the point of throwing up
Here's some more info re: choking/gagging - they are different. Information on choking and gagging

they should help her transition to a 4 hour schedule. Ugh that seems like so long
If you want to keep feeding every 2hr, that's not really that much of a drama unless it is for you. Strict timings between feeds is not essential and with a reflexes, sometimes its just not possible.

Maybe an odd question, but just a hunch: What are her poos like?


I'm gonna take the temper ant quiz but I already know I have a high needs baby on my hands and this is going to be a small world of hell to change 😩 but since I'm not starting till after my guests leave I am gonna extend bf times at least some while I'm waiting :)
Actually, if she is generally happy with a day like this, she'll probably take to a slightly stronger routine quite well. If she's refusing naps or you're perceiving she needs to be fed to sleep for naps, that's probably more related to her being undertired than inability to fall asleep. With your daughter having reflux, some techniques for sleep training will not be advised, simply because they can be aggravating of the symptoms, so anything we suggest will be pretty gentle.

Offline LadyA

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2015, 11:05:03 am »
She sleeps horribly she refuses naps and I spend all night waking. Literally as I right this I haven't gotten more than 1-2 hours of sleep. She is constantly waking up every hour or so. I know it's not always for hunger because she can be put back to sleep but it's with props like me holding her or holding her hand. She rubs her face so violently the second she stirs it's just awful. She is always so tired cause she sleeps like crap. The reason she naps so early is because she doesn't sleep well at least in my opinion. Yesterday she was so over tired she took 2 thirty min naps all day. I'm running on fumes as every night seems to get worse. She has to sleep on her tummy it's a all out war otherwise and when she wakes up she rubs her face and starts to cry. Which drops to pacifier out and it's just a battle. I can literally pick her up lay her on my chest and she will go right back to sleep. She use to sleep decently when she was swaddled so I know she can go for long periods but the 6 month growth spurt has ruined everything and we are at 8 months and I'm just loosing it. She doesn't nap or sleep hardly without eating unless it's a fall asleep in the car nap. Yesterday she was so tired just nothing would work she ended up going to bed at 6 cause she was so tired. I sometimes don't even get to nap with her cause if I let go of her hand she wake up it's a major prop issue that started after unswaddling her. Even the pacifier is probably a prop but once she is asleep she spits it out on her own but sadly cannot get it back in her own mouth herself. But maybe if she was calmer and didn't wake up screaming she might try. It's always 0-100 with her I can hear her grunt on the monitor and the second I get to her she is rubbing her face and crying. She won't let my husband console her so it's been my job for 8 months and I'm pretty much at my wits end. I don't believe is cio so I'm looking for other options. I dunno if extending her feedings beyond 3 hours will be possible yesterday I got her to got 2.5-3 most of the time ok.

Her poos now very from very small peanut butter consistency but very little amount to a little thinner and more. She seems to have always gotten backed up easily it's her dairy allergy symptom.

During the day she will play with her toys all by herself most of the time. Sometimes she wants major attention others I can take a break. I spend most of the day playing with her on and off. She is usually happy so I do not get this night thing but the face rubbing is such an issue I even thought it might be allergies and tried Zyrtec but it didn't make a difference. Right now we are co sleeping it's the only way I'm not fully loosing my sanity but I hate it. I wish I would have never swaddled her cause she slept like an angel till we had to stop. She has minor prop issues with the pacifier but would go 6-7 hours a night sleeping but she was also in a rock n play. So the big transition to not swaddling and in the bassinet was hell. Took awhile before I realized she had to sleep on her tummy or else. I'm all for gentle training but something has to give cause this is just making me a horrible mom cause I'm so tired and frustrated. I know it's not her fault :(

Offline becj86

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2015, 20:36:59 pm »
She seems to have always gotten backed up easily it's her dairy allergy symptom.
Is she still exposed to dairy, even trace amounts in your milk? If not, maybe she is also soy intolerant? That's a reasonably common combination. The rubbing of the face sounds like its maybe itchy or something, doesn't it.

Waking every hour and never sleeping a stretch sounds like discomfort rather than just OT. OT will give you that at times in the night but generally not all night. It could be related to the props - at this age, if they stir, babies want the environment to be the same as it was when they fell asleep so they're feeling safe to go back to sleep.

Is there any reliable way she will sleep? If there is, I would suggest letting her sleep like that in a specific routine for 3-4 days or so and see if that helps the stretches of sleep. I do think, though, that you may not be at the final answer with the dairy intolerance and that'll have to be addressed.

I am at a bit of a loss WRT what else it might be. Would you like me to shift your thread to the Colic, Reflux and Crying board so you can have your thread viewed by more people who have actually dealt with similar?

Offline Buntybear

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 20:53:32 pm »
Hi there, does your mummy gut instinct tell you that there is anything else going with allergies? Olly used to be an awful sleeper but be happy in the day too. He did have painful wind and horrible eczema though to it was easy to see he was poorly. I can see why you want to not co-sleep but TBH it was very often the only way we could get any sleep in our house so don't beat yourself up about it, although I appreciate you are not getting much sleep even doing this  :'(

Offline LadyA

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 00:26:29 am »
Honestly she use to sleep long stretches after I cut dairy out so unless it's a recent soy allergy I dunno. I thought the same thing about itching but at this point I'm afraid if I give up soy I won't have anything at all to eat and I will give up bf. She will have random nights of going 3-5 hours. So I honestly do not know. There should be no traces of dairy I am like super paranoid about that and check everything. I would just think if soy was part of it this would be so bad all of a sudden. I can look back in my app and see when she would nurse sleep for 5-6 hours wake up nurse them up every 2-3 after that which was normal. It's just now she is so needy. If I hold her she will sleep forever it seems but in no way can I do that for 3-4 nights. I don't even go to bed the same time as her in incapable but that's my issue. She if definetly overtired during the day from not napping well just fights it hard. Which is more recent too but naps have always been harder but not to the point of back arching and screaming :( if you think moving my thread would help that's fine I just need some sanity.

Offline lauradj

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2015, 04:09:35 am »
I'm popping on here a little late in the game but I thought I'd offer hugs and support!  I know the other ladies have been helping out with suggestions.  May I just ask, have you tried Shh-Pat for the NW's?  I know the book says to do PU/PD after 4 months but I used Shh-Pat with DS1 for any NW up to a year, and would still if he woke now at 2 years.  He didn't like the patting though so I rubbed his back.  Might she find that soothing?  It sounds like she's a touchy little dear so whatever you choose to do, you'll want to make it very gentle and mellow. 
You must be so tired and frustrated.  I know you mentioned DH needs his sleep but might he be able to trade off with you a bit on the weekends?  My DH works nights 6 months of the year so I know all about solo parenting for long stretches.  Having said that, he  helps out whenever he can.  Maybe you could go to sleep early, say around 9pm or so, and he could take any NW's that happen until midnight?  At least that would give you three solid hours of, hopefully, uninterrupted sleep.


Offline becj86

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2015, 07:12:55 am »
Ok, so she did sleep long stretches - how recently did the frequent waking start?

Offline *Liz*

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 19:47:54 pm »
Hiya, just popping in to give any extra thoughts I have  :). My smallest baby is 9 months old, and has CMPA and reflux. He is formula fed, which obviously makes things a bit different, but I have breast fed my 2 previous children so I do understand.

It sounds to me like the reflux/ comfort/ tummy aches and props are all a big muddled up heap really.

Can I ask if your LO is independent to sleep at all? i.e. can you do a wind down and put your baby into the crib awake? If not then I think that is where we need to start  :). Gently teaching independent sleep, so you know your LO has the skill, and then whatever wakings we have we know are due to routine/ teeth/ solids etc. I'm not the best person with advice for sleep training as all of mine have kind of done it themselves gradually....  :-\..... my main tool is LOUD white noise. I guess I start by getting them super drowsy in my arms and then usually stroke heads etc to soothe them into the mattress. With time they needed less help. I think PUPD is too much for most refluxers, and a bit of gentle soothing with white noise or music is better.

I don't think it is a problem that you put her on her tummy now. She is old enough, and really it makes some gentle sleep training easier as you can stroke her back or pat her bum  ;). My DD was a tummy sleeper from very young as well.

Also - getting constipated - if some fruit or juice will help clear her through at this age I would just give it rather than wait for it to happen. I know we would all prefer BM and water only, but if a bit of juice helps her tummy then it is much better than having tummy aches and starting to use meds to do it. My DS gets constipated very easily as well - he is also still very poorly coordinated and just struggles to get himself to go  ::) ::) - we can always tell if he needs a poop  >:( ::). But with plenty of extra water, and getting some fruit and veggies in it does seem to help a bit. I actually give solids about 2hrs after milk else my DS takes nothing at all - and whilst he has his milk and that is fine - it isn't helping him overall. Some solids can help the constipation and help the reflux. So far my boy is still increasing his demand for milk and certainly isn't dropping it  ;). It might be worth trying a slightly bigger gap. No feeding routine suits every baby. I use a mix of purees and finger foods as we had too much gagging etc with pure BLW (probably expected as my boy was 5 weeks prem).

My husband isn't much help either - he is a surgeon and really does need a decent amount of sleep if he is to operate the next day. What he does do though is deal with any EWings - so after a bad night he will lie with DS from 5am (at that point he will have had 6/7 hrs sleep). He doesn't do much - he doesn't sleep train or solve the problem - but it does mean I get a last 1-2hrs of sleep before be goes to work. He sometimes just stays with him while he fusses  :-[, but at least it isn't me, yk? I do all my 'sleep training' in the day - gently teach independent sleep so that at night I can go into survival mode. It is easier without the boob really - my prop has always been to let him lie on my shoulder - but now he is mobile I put him into the cot asleep else he wouldn't be safe (again its a teeny step towards everything being independent iyswim).

Anyway - just my random thoughts  :-* :-*. Lots of support here if you would like it though  ;) :-* :-* :-*.

Offline LadyA

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 19:52:06 pm »
Honestly at the 6 month growth spurt she started sleeping worse and ever since then it's just been hell. She use to go to bed for an hour wake up to basically cluster feed then go back for 6-7 hours then feed and back down for 2-3 more. Sometimes our day would start then or she would go back to sleep for an hour or 2 before she was up for the day. I started co sleeping at this time cause I couldn't handle the getting her in and out of the bassinet all night. I just put her crib in my room. I was thinking shh pat might work better for her pu/pd we are going to start all this next week on my husbands 4 day weekend. Other than that most nights he has to be in bed by 10 for the guaranteed 8 hours. He fixes aircrafts and can actually get in trouble for being tired if he messes up something. Not to say he hasn't helped when absolutely necessary for sure but I really try not to bother him. With her in the room when she wakes I wake so him taking a shift is almost pointless lol I would put her in her own room but not till she is self soothing it's to much to go to her room.

Offline Buntybear

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2015, 20:05:58 pm »
I absolutely agree that shh/pat and gradual withdrawal would be the best thing for you both right now. Have you read through about how to start? You have a few days to get an idea of what you want to do and where to start. I would get an idea of what EASY you are aiming for an start with shh/pat at naps.

Offline LadyA

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Re: Omg I'm new to this.
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2015, 20:25:23 pm »
I haven't read shh pat cause she is 8 months and I didn't think it would work. I tried it today both ways and it ended up with me picking her up her falling asleep in my as then me laying her down on her tummy. My biggest battle is when she wakes up she rolls to her back and cries. She cannot sleep on her back and the second she rolls to it she is up and it all starts again.... She knows how to roll back but just doesn't :( my goal for easy is basically up around 7/8 and I'll probably continue to feed every 2/3 hours with solids mixed in. I want 2 naps and bed by 7-8