3rd child and poor sleep

[AussieMum2Three]

Hi all!  It's been a long time since I've been on here, but I'm back as I've got to the point that something must be done about DD2's poor night sleeping. DH and I are at each other's throats and it's got to the point that riding it out is not an option 

Some background for you...
We have three kids DD - 7 years old, DS - 2.5 years old and DD2 - 13 months.  I've followed BW principles with all three (to varying degrees).  DD is an angel child, DS is touchy and (I think) DD2 is angel/textbook.  There is only 16 months between DS and DD2 which is largely the reason we've been more lax with doing sleep training with her. We haven't (until recently) been able to let her cry, as she'd wake up DS and then we'd have big issues getting him back to sleep.  As such, we've let her keep the dummy/paci for a lot longer than the others did (ditched it at 7 mos and 4 mos respectively) and we've got out of bed far more quickly to pat her back to sleep when she's woken at night. I suspect we've created the problem doing this...

So my problem is her waking multiple times a night and needing to be resettled back to sleep.  She still has a dummy and unfortunately still gets a night BF (that and a bedtime feed are the only BFs she gets and I'm about to go cold turkey on both!).  One part of me thinks I should hold off doing anything (about her NWs) until she's fully weaned to eliminate that variable, but I'm pretty sure it's not that. She has very rarely been fed to sleep, has been on EASY since birth and goes to sleep for naps and bedtime independently (i.e. put her in sleeping bag, give her dummy, cuddle with her teddy for about 30 secs, put her in her cot, turn on music, close the door and 95% of the time that's the last time we hear from her).

EASY (on a good day) at the moment is:

6 - 6.30am wake and play
7am breakfast (cereal and/or toast)
8am Cow's milk bottle
9-9.30am 1st nap (30mins long if it's in the pram out somewhere, but more often 1-1.5hrs at home)
11.30-12 Lunch
12.30 - 2 Bottle and 2nd nap (1 - 1.5hrs long. Depending on how long the first nap was determines when 2nd nap starts)
After 2nd nap - Afternoon tea
5-5.30 Dinner and bath
6 - 6.30 BF and bed

She often will wake once or twice between bedtime and 10pm, but she won't replug herself.  We'll go in quickly, replug and walk out and most of the time, she'll happily go back to sleep.  However, she's then been waking between 11 and 12 and won't resettle without being picked up, cuddled and patted. Usually, we'll only hold her for <5mins and continue patting once back in her cot. Sometimes this NW will see us being up and down several times as she wakes again in 5, 10, 30mins later. We do consciously try not to put her to sleep in our arms, so to avoid her waking not knowing where she is. If the multiple wakings continue, I usually end up feeding her between 12 and 1 (which I know she doesn't need for hunger) and she goes back to sleep awake and 95% of the time resettles by herself with the dummy.  If she doesn't wake early in the night, she'll wake between 1 and 3 and I'll just feed her straight away and she'll go back to sleep (awake) usually without an issue.  She will sometimes sleep through until 6 - 6.30, but recently, she's sometime waking between 4 and 5 and needs resettling or is awake for the day.

I guess what's doing my head in, is that each night is different and I'm not able to tie her NW back to the length/time of her naps or the time she wakes in the morning.  DH works shifts and trying to find a block of time when DD2 is healthy/not teething and he's home, has been really challenging.  But then again, we're also not sure what to try/do to resolve the NWs.  I'm prepared that we might have to get rid of her dummy and if that has to happen, then OK, but getting rid of it at 13 months old is going to be lots harder than for a younger baby, isn't it?  We've gone cold turkey with the other two, but DD2 is strong-willed and teethes hard, so I'm rather afraid!

Sorry for the war and peace, but I wanted to give as much info as possible.  We need to do something soon, as we're both so tired after so many months of NWs.  Dealing with frequent NWs in young babies I can do, but enough's enough.  Any clues and advice would be much appreciated 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I wonder if she is ready to shift to one nap and the uptick in nw/ew is due to that. Personally I would try a routine tweak before ditching the soother at this age (we waited until 2.5 with DD1 as she understood better and gave it up easily, DD3 sounds more like your DD and is still going strong with hers!).

To help with not running in right away for every noise, would your other kids use white noise so the baby fussing a bit doesn't bother them (or do they share a room?). My are next door to each other and they rarely notice DD3's nw.

[AussieMum2Three]

Hi Heidi, many thanks for your response.  I'm rather glad you didn't go straight in with 'ditch the dummy' as she really does love it and it calms her down when she's upset or teething.  She's a loud kid too and it's very nice to 'plug' when you've had enough of the noise. 

A month or so ago, I did think she might have been moving to one nap.  But it was just a blip and she went back to happily having two.  However, maybe one or two days a week now she'll only have one, as the day's routine prevents her from having her morning nap (eg Sunday church at 9am and she won't sleep in the pram anymore there).  So she can usually survive until 12 and goes down then.  DS still has a 2 hour nap from 12.30-1ish, but I suspect she'll have to go down slightly earlier - as long as I get some overlap!    I'll go and read the support threads for 2 - 1 transition....

Re using the white noise, DS and DD2 are across the hall from each other and more often than not, he won't wake up when she cries, but if we're going to embark in a little more SS, I might put his music on repeat for the night!

When I try to let her SS now, her cries just escalate (within a few minutes) and when we've let her go, she kicks the side of the cot in protest and doesn't make any attempt to find her dummy. Do we just let her go til she gets the message that we're not going in? Or do we go in and shush/pat and then put her down awake (but quiet) and then deal with the crying when she realises we're not staying to pat her to sleep? Or PU/PD?? She's now 11kgs (24lbs) and gets heavy!!  I think we need to do some sort of gradual withdrawal (i.e. less support each night over a number of nights), but I'm not sure what.  She can put her self to sleep very well when she goes to bed, just not in the middle of the night, so we just need to remind her how to do that when she wakes!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I am off to work right now so will reply properly later but had to lol - your description in the first paragraph sounds so much like my DD3! Gradual withdrawal is mostly what we have done, will be back with more indepth thoughts.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hey sorry I was gone so long! How are things?

So just to clarify, she won't replug her soother herself at all? Is it that she cant find it or does she just want you to do it? Personally I would want to start putting it in her hand and guiding her to do it (oh and glow in the dark soothers are also an awesome invention) and then just coach her to find it - perhaps a daytime game of hide and seek in her bed? The fact that she goes down initially by herself is great, she should be able to sort out the nights if you pick a way and stick to it. Gradual withdrawal or wi/wo (or a combo of those) would make the most sense at this age.

[AussieMum2Three]

Hi Heidi,

No, I've been trying to get back to the computer to write, but just haven't go there, so I know how it is!

We were doing well for a few nights, but the last two nights have been horrible  .  And funny that they have coincided with two days in a row where she didn't get two naps.  Both days she missed her morning nap and only went down at lunchtime and didn't sleep for longer enough (1.5hrs first day and 2 hours the second day).  Both nights we've had NW and EW.  As she woke early in the night (10ish I think), I refused to feed her and patted her for a while and she was just mucking around and not trying to go back to sleep.  So then I gave her some Panadol (Tylenol in Canada?) and walked out and she was quiet for 10 mins and then escalated again.  I then went in and out a number of times and let her grizzle in between.  Finally, after a couple of hours, I got sick of it and fed her.  She settled after that (not straight away, but I don't think I went back in).  Sorry, details are a little fuzzy now    I'm going to go over and read up on weaning her so the NF is removed from the equation....

Re replugging herself, she is perfectly capable of replugging herself during the day and even in her cot sometimes.  I think it is more the case of she doesn't want to and wants you to come in.  I will start putting it in her hand when I go into her rather than straight in her mouth.  I guess its been a case of doing what I know works best to get her back to sleep easily/not wake her up more.  Oh, the differences between how you parented your first child compared with parenting a third child!!  I remember spending so much time worrying about sleep, sleep training, making special baby food, encouraging them to crawl/walk/talk.  Now its just getting through the day and making sure everyone is fed, clothed, faces clean and reasonably on time to school/activities! 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Oh yeah, totally different ball game with number three! I saw you had a post on the BF board. So perhaps it is mostly just the prop of feeding and of wanting soother assistance, and possibly just needing to tweak a bit as she heads towards one nap. I remember we had a while of DD3 wanting a snuggle at every nw and I finally just had to do some gw and sit by her crib with my arm through the bars. Good thing is when they are older they clue in quicker and talking to them out of the moment (and during) can be a big help too. Lol DD3 is not a big talker and we often forget how good her receptive language skills are - actually partially solved her ew by talking to her about it.