earlier and earlier BT

[AMJ]

Hello hello, here I am again having trouble with my DD's sleep. Since forever DD had EWUs(5am or earlier). She also is having lengthy NWUs that I think are related to OT?? We tried playing around with nap length, A times, setting set nap/BT, dropping the nap but nothing really worked. We've also been moving a lot in the past few months but now we are finally in one place for a while.

Two months ago we moved her BT to 9/9:30 pm to prevent really EWUs (for me). Also last week DD had few great nights (10,10.5/11hrs) but I was playing around with her nap length giving her 2hrs one day then 1hr45m the next day and then 1hr15m the following day. Then I'm assuming that she caught up on all her lost sleep, had great night and the next day refused to nap. I offered her an early BT and after that things went downhill again. She is OT, waking up once or twice during her nap and crying(sometimes to go potty and she goes back to sleep but sometimes she doesn't). She is back to having short nights, long days, and taking a very long time to fall asleep therefore an EBT becomes a late BT.

Today she woke up at 6:30 am after 8:45 pm BT and is refusing to nap. I'm afraid her day is shifting earlier and earlier and I really don't what this to happen especially to give a 6pm BT!

Please advise how to shift her BT back to 9pm and help her nap.

[Buntybear]

Hi - sorry your post has been missed - i shall bump it for you 

[cath~]

Hi there,

Could you post a typical day, or just what the last few days have looked like, i.e. WU, nap time and length, and BT?  And say what the night was like (e.g. STTN or NWs and how long for). 

She also is having lengthy NWUs that I think are related to OT??

sometimes these can also be developmental or even UT.  Once we've seen your day we might have a better idea.  When she has NWs, what sort of time are they?

Does she self-settle at BT?

Could she be teething at all - has she got her 2nd year molars yet?

Have you considered or do you use a gro clock/lights on a timer or similar for the EWs?

Sorry for all the qns, just trying to get the whole picture

[AMJ]

Thank you both!
 I'll try to answer all the questions in order
A typical day: there is no typical day really because morning wake up ranges a lot depending on how the night went. She could be up at 6am if she STTN or 7am or 8am if she has a NWU which pushes the morning WU later. But for example when  we had few good days they looked something like this:
WU 8:00
crib 1:40
S 2:00/2:15 for 2hrs (she used to wake up through her nap a cry for the potty and after she is done her business she would go back to sleep)Also she would need a 2hr nap when she is OT from few previous days.

WU 4:00
crib 9:00
BT 9:30 STTD

the next day WU 8:00
S 2:15(1hr45m)

WU 4:00
8:40 crib
9:30 BT STTN

the next day 7:30 WU
2:05 S(1hr20m) woke up for potty

3:30 WU
8:30 crib
9:10 BT STTN

the next day 7:55 WU
Refused the nap. I kept her in the crib from 2:00 to 3:00
6:30 crib
7:00 BT

the next day WU 6:35.
After NND everything went downhill. She had a 2hr nap and I gave her 9:00 BT which was probably too late since she WU at 6:30am but i figured we are on a set BT so I stuck with it. Now She takes a nap every other day even though she seems OT. I'm trying to give her a very very late bt of 10pm to shift her WU later and then I'm planning to bring the BT back to 9pm but because in the last couple of days she takes a nap every other day this is hard to do.

last few days:
WU 6;30am
NND refused
tried for a nap at 4:35
5;00 S

5:30 Wu i woke her
10;00 BT

2:00 NWU
2:30 S

the next day 6:30 WU
1:20 S(2hrs40m)

4:00 WU
9:30 crib
10:20 BT

the next day 7:10 WU
NND refused
6:40 crib, crying, calling me, potty, saying she just can't sleep, acting really hyper. I think that by now she is supper OT
8:00 BT STTN

The next day 6:45 WU surprisingly
NO NAP refused second day in a row

Now the hard part is to get her caught up on her sleep, but still not to give too much sleep so her nights shorten from UT. Plus to prevent from shifting her day earlier and to keep for regular BT at 9:00pm

So lately she didn't have lengthy NWU but what I noticed is that she has them for 1.5-2hrs long if she is OT and has a short nap. They happen later in the night, which i know sounds UT but i do think it's OT because when she is UT she usually will have a long nap and then an EWU with a night of 9hrs-9.5hrs long.

-Yes she self-settles for BT and nap.

- She is not teething because she has all of her teeth in for a while now.

- we tried Gro clock for a little while but because her WU ranges so much it's hard to set it for a particular time. I find when she has a lengthy NWU it pushes her morning WU much later and then mr sun comes up and wakes her up.

I'm sorry for such a long reply. I really hope it makes sense. It's been so inconsistent that it is difficult to narrow things down. Even the consistently capped nap doesn't fix things. I feel like I need to adjust her nap length every day.

thank you so much and sorry again for a long reply. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

[cath~]

(((Hugs)))

The 1-0 transition can be really hard In terms of lack of consistency

I think that on the days when she does nap she's napping too long and then losing night sleep again.  Since she can handle a nnd, I'd suggest that When/if she naps, you cap it at 45 mins. You may even need to cap it shorter (20 or 30 mins) but maybe start with that and see how you get on.

What do you think?

[AMJ]

TBH I truly think that 45m would be too short of a nap for her. i feel like if she takes a nap, (hopefully!!!!)she will need a long nap to catch her up. Maybe if she takes a nap second day in a row then I could cut the nap that short but what I found so far is that she needs the nap cut very slowly. She is very sensitive to OT and doesn't catch up at night. The only was to get her rested is through the nap. I just don't think she will last till BT.

Few months ago I used to cap her nap to 1hr, 45m, 30m, dropped the nap and the most night S I got with that was 10hrs inconsistently with lengthy NWUs. So her over all amount of S in 24hrs was very short. When I increased the length of her nap her S in 24hrs increased. I just need to make sure I constantly change the length of her nap and keep her day 13.5 hrs long max.

I'm not sure if this is developmental or not or she is scared but she does say sometimes that there are spiders or dinosors in her room( although she likes both). As I mentioned before we resent lay moved and she's been beefing lots of new people and playing with new kids and visiting kids developmental programs so that could be something that might effect her.

She is always was all about mommy but lately it increased a lot. She calls for me at night, before nap and BT: I need my mommy, moooooommy etc. then she needs potty, she can't sleep, etc.
Thank you for suggestion

[barbaraz78]

I think you are moving her bt to much. I would keep it at a constant time - like at 9 pm - plus/minus 30 mins depending on nap. My DS never ever did more than 12 h nights and those were rare too and almost never followed a nnd, until he fully dropped the nap (and also later, he was more on a 11.5 h night, for this reason we had to keep the nap till 3.5 yo). This could be your case. So, I would not put her to bed at 7 pm if 6-6.30 is too early for you. Also, keeping bt constant, you can also guess the wu (I would aim to 11 h) and in this way you can put the gro clock. If she has 10.5 h night she would only need to wait 30 mins.

[AMJ]

Hi Barbara, I was really good at sticking to 9pm BT before but now because her WU moved to 6:30-6:45 I shifted her to 8pm because she just gets more OT and the morning WU just don't shift later.

I don't know if you remember in my previous post creations recommended to dramatically shift her BT really late and keep it there for some time until the morning WU moved later and then bring the BT back to 9pm. This worked last time really well so that's what I'm trying to achieve now but it's hard to do when she refuses to nap.

We rarely get 11hr nights. Usually it's 9hrs45m, could be 9hrs-10.5 (rare). I find the only time she sleeps 11hrs if following a nnd and if her day is 11hrs long. But that moves her morning WU really early which then requires me to give her an early BT and we are back to square one.

[barbaraz78]

So, if she sleeps 9-10.5 h with 2ish hour naps that means that she maybe needs 11-11.5 h of sleep in total. That means that if you want longer nights you need to decrease nap length, I agree with Cath on this. However, with my kid's sleep pattern I would have been very careful to shift bt earlier more than 0.5 hour, because this would have resulted in ew (for me) and would have perpetuated a 6.30 (or earlier) wu. So, if you have a short night like 9-6.30 (it happens from time to time that they sleep less that particular night), I would increase nap length of 30 mins for that day only to avoid ot and keep bt the same. This is what I did with F and it worked. I kept bt the same, I played with the nap, increasing or decreasing its length according to night sleep and putting him to bed 30 mins earlier in case of nnd. In any case, I would aim to 11.5 h as total sleep in 24 h.
About the shifting of the body clock, I remember the advice of creations. But in this case I think that this is more a case of needing a consistent routine and decreasing the nap length to increase the night sleep. Of course, with late bt you can adjust her to later wu, but then you need to be consistent on the bt, in my opinion. We always had periods (like 1-2 weeks) of shorter nights followed by periods of longer nights, I think they were linked to dev leaps or to changes in the routine (like starting school).

[AMJ]

Ok thank you!!! I'll bring back the consistent 9pm BT. What would you suggest to do with the BT in case she has an very EWU then refuses a nap( this started to happen often). Still only 8:30 BT the earliest?

So two days in a row she refused the nap, she is ridiculously OT, dark circles and all, and tonight had a 2hr NWU from 2:40am-4:40.

[barbaraz78]

If it happens once in a while, yes, I would keep the bt at 8.30 and would try to make a longer nap the next day. If she drops the nap, then you have to move bt at that point, to allow a longer night. But I uderstood that you are not quite there for now. I must add that this worked for us but I rarely had to wake F in the morning (however the max thay he did probably only a couple of times was 12 h), so he could sleep longer in the morning if he needed to make up for the lost sleep. In this way, I could adjust the nap length keeping more and less the same bt and wu. Consistency was the key for us...
Can you ap a nap in the car if she is really ot?

[AMJ]

No she won't nap anywhere but crib with her white noise and it must be pitch black. I will try for a ct in the crib later on

She took a nap today, I woke her after 1hr45m. She clearly needed it but again she is awake at night. So she had a NWU on a nnd and after a nap day so I think she is stil OT from missing so much sleep in the last few days.

Thanks

[AMJ]

Hi

In the last few days I tried short nap, long nap, no nap when she refused it on her own but her night S is just brutal. Now she is up twice every night. I feel like I have a newborn on my hands. I stuck to 9pm BT and 8:30pm on nnd. She still looks exhausted, having trouble playing with others, became short tempered, and screams with all her might at everyone including other kids.

Tonight for example she was up twice about 1hr long each time and then woke up at 6am after 9pm BT 

[Maria14]

Would she not take a nap quite late in the day?
When DD refuses nap at usual time sometimes she ends up having a short nap say at 3pm but I wake her after 20 min or so, we still aim for usual BT but the short nap helps take the edge off the tiredness and prevent long OT NW( not always!!)

[AMJ]

I tried a later nap the last day she refused a regular nap but she refused the later one too