5mo: crying after/during sleep

[Apple001]

Hi Ali,

Sorry for this late reply. I was just trying different things. It seems like nothing helps.


1) She stopped going to sleep herself. Before I used this strategy of putting her to sleep: go around the apartment and balcony with her, then closing the shades and saying "have a good sleep" to the Sun, turning on the white noise machine, and actual putting her to bed. Then I would come in 5 minutes (if she is not asleep) and give her a pacifier. Then I would come in 5 minutes and find her asleep. Now I will need to actually hold her in bed to restrict her movements. Sometimes it take 10-15 minutes of holding her.
I might be missing her "sleep" window and trying to put to bed an OT baby. Before I was putting her in 2 hours of awake time, but then you suggested to prolong it. So it seems like she is not ready for longer A time.
Will the "Sitting" stage of 4S ritual help? I just don't have a comfortable place to sit in the bedroom: if I sit on the bed, then she has a full room of interesting stuff to see.

2) 30-45 minute naps! None of the "Wake-to-Sleep" and "Pressure at the Jolts" strategies works for us now. She still cries after some 45 minute nap. Usually either feeding or going for a walk (outside) will help.  But I'm not able to put her down again for a longer nap.
She also refuses the CN in the evening. Because of that we put her to bed earlier and get even more night wakings (some of them she just wakes up, talks to herself and goes back to sleep).

3) Night wakings: I tried to wait for the actual "I-need-you" cry, and it happens after every fussing period at the same time (around 11pm, 2am, 5am). It seems like she is hungry every 2.5-3 hours. One night we even had 4 night feedings (out of 6 night wakings).  I'm trying to cluster feed her before bedtime, but it doesn't help.
I tried holding her, but she still fusses and eventually cries. Pacifier doesn't work at all: she doesn't even take it, she starts crying when I try to insert it (because she is fussing and moving around - i can't do it quietly). 
The only thing I didn't try is "Wake-to-Sleep" strategy for the night-time wakings. But I doubt that it will work (because it stopped working for the naps).
I talked to one of the friends, she said that she probably switch night and day feedings, and that it probably goes back to normal, when she starts solid foods. We didn't plan on starting the solid foods for another 2-4 weeks (until our next doctor's appointment), but now I'm considering to start early.

4) I think it is not a Reflux. The only "Reflux"-like symptom is "cry when laying down", but that happens like once in 4-5 days now.

[Apple001]

My DH thinks that DD is thirsty at night. He wants to start giving her water. I don't believe that it would work. Because when I tried to decrease the time of a NF by one minute, she woke up in an hour crying for food.
I think my breastmilk is not enough for her and she needs more food during the day. (My DH disagrees with me because she is too chubby and >95% in weight)
I will start solids on Saturday.
I'm also considering giving her a bottle of formula at BT. I really don't want to do it, but currently I'm out of the other options. I reread Hogg's book so many times, I browse old topics to find some new ways of dealing with the hunger cry, but I'm still not getting any sleep (she wakes up 4 times a night for a feed: around 10:30pm, 1:30am, 3:30am and 5:30am) and I'm a working mama, so I need a clear head during the day.

The E part of our routine is fixed: 7am, 11am, 3pm, 6pm, and 7:30-7:45pm (bedtime).
The naps are still jumping around, especially the last CN. But DD sleeps around 14 hours total every day (2-3 hours during a day and 11-12 hours at night).
During her A time she is working on her balance by raising the hands and legs at the same time during the tummy time.

P.S. Sorry, it seems like this thread became "crying it out" topic for me.

[*Ali*]

Sorry for the delay in responding.

No, I wouldn't give her water. If you think she isn't getting enough from milk then giving water would only replace valuable nutrients with calorie-empty water. If you think she needs more than she is getting from your milk then the best thing to do is breast feed her more.

Have you considered it may be reverse cycling? http://kellymom.com/bf/normal/reverse-cycling/

[Apple001]

*Ali*, thank you for your reply! Don't worry about late reply - you have your own life with three beautiful children to take care off. Thank you for being here for us!

I thought about "day/night switch". I also saw you posting this link about reverse cycling in another thread. Probably it is. (Otherwise I'm out of other reasons)
I didn't think my work could have such a huge effect because I work from home during her naps and I only leave her for 2-3 hours 2-3 times a week (and she sleeps at least 1 hour of that time). But there is nothing I can change. Most of the tips provided in that article I'm already implementing. Her crib is right next to my bed (I stopped going to sleep to another room for a while); I'm nursing her in the quiet room (and it actually helped to prolong the feeding times); I carry her in the sling during our daily walks; etc. So I think I just need to wait... Maybe solids will help.

[Apple001]

Over the past several weeks I spent almost all my time with DD. We had a change of caregivers (my mom left and my FIL came) and I needed to teach my FIL how to take care of DD. There were no improvement in her night wakings. So I don't think it is reverse cycling.
They actually became worse because she got sick. Now we're back to "at least 3 night wakings a night"
On a good night she would nurse between 10-11pm, 2-3am, 4-5am.
On a bad night (like yesterday): she nursed at 11pm, 12:50am, 2am, 5:30am + paci around 3:40am + there was one more night waking but she fell asleep on her own (so I'm not sure what time it was). 

Our pediatrician recommended sleep training before 9 months. My DH and I are thinking about it, but we're not sure how to accomplish it with all those night wakings. Do we feed her at 10-11pm and then use PU/PD for the rest of the night till 7am? I know that she can go 5 hours without a feed (she did it 2 months ago), but I'm afraid that she will be genuinely hungry and we will torture her.
I asked the same question to our Pediatrician and she told us that currently she is supposed to be getting enough milk during the day. Therefore night feedings are just for comfort.


Our second problem is naps and awake time before the first nap. As you can see from the previous EASY we used to have 2 hours of A time in the morning. But she started consistently dropping her catnap in the evening (45 minutes between 5-6pm).
Now I'm trying to extend the first A time, but even 2 hours and 30 minutes is a lot for her. She starts showing all the sleep signs before 9am.
For example her EASY today:

WU/E - 6:50am
A (2.5 hours)
S - 9:20-10:10 (she woke up in 35mins, but I was able to extend it for extra 15mins).
A - 10:10-10:40am

E 10:40am
A (30 min before E and 2:35 after E - total of 3.05 hours)
S 1:15 - 2:55pm (1h and 40 min: she woke up in 45 mins, but I was able to extend it right away another 55 min nap)

E 3pm
A 2 hours 45 min ----- I tried to put her to sleep from 5pm till 6pm, but she really didn't want to go to sleep.
E 5:45 pm (I tried to nurse her to sleep)
A 1 hour 15 min

Pre-BT routine: 7pm
E: 7:20 (nurse to sleep)
BT: 7:30pm

My plan is to extend her A time till 3hours in 15 minutes increments: 3 days of 2h 30min, 3 days of 2h 45min and then 3 hour A time.  However by looking at this schedule (All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months) I'm afraid to move to 4.5 hour EASY (because our increased night waking started when we moved to 4 hour EASY). Just in case we will end up doing it, should I implement the top-offs before her naps? Or will the solid feeding take care of it?

[*Ali*]

Yes as A times get longer she will likely need a second feed in each A time. I'd definitely push the A times like you plan to.

Have you started solids now? When do you give them?

I'm not sure on what your paed is basing the opinion that NFs are not needed by this age. Official advice from the world health org is to feed as often as baby wants at night. All babies are different and many do need night feeds until at least 1yo. I understand you need to get some sleep though so I would look at cutting the feeds down to a more manageable number.

Can you remind me how LO goes to sleep for naps? I'd probably make sure that is independently and then use the same method to resettle without feeding if LO wakes within 3hrs of the last NF. I wouldn't go straight for all night as your LO is used to eating often.

[Apple001]

We started solids several weeks ago (we were able to introduce pumpkin and oatmeal), but then DD got sick and we decided to postpone. As of 3 days ago we re-started solids again (I usually give it to her around noon). However she doesn't show interest in food anymore.  :-( Most of the times she is not even getting a spoon of food.

She used to go to sleep only with a pacifier. Currently she needs pacifier + someone holding her arms and not letting her turn. Sometimes only a pacifier is enough, sometimes even this combo doesn't work. I thought that pu/pd might help with independent sleeping.

[*Ali*]

Have you considered Baby Led Weaning if she isn't interested in the spoon?

It isn't really possible to do PUPD with a paci (unless baby can replug her own paci). Here's a link with more info on why. Or are you happy to wean the paci?

[Apple001]

I was actually planning on BLW, but I didn't find the support at home. So we decided to go with purees.
But recently since she didn't like the purees, we gave her half of banana to "play" with. She did "play" with it, but then she started gagging, so we finished our experiment.
We still don't have a highchair (she doesn't sit on her own well enough). But we will be getting it soon. So I might experiment more with BLW later.

Sorry, the link didn't show up. But I think I read somewhere that paci and PUPD don't work together. I'm ready to wean it out (if needed). I'm not a big fan of paci, but it really helped us a lot at the first few months.
I also heard read that around 7-8 months babies start replugging the paci by themselves. If we decide to sleep train with PUPD, then we will be doing it either over the Thanksgiving (late November) or in the second half of December. So by that time DD will be around 7-8 month old and she might be able to replug.

I don't want to rush with PUPD while we have problems with naps. By the way we have a little progress with naps:
1) first awake time - 3hours, then 50 minutes of sleep. (I put her down at 2h 45min and it took 15 minutes for her to actually fall asleep)
2) second awake time - 2h 40mins, then 1h 10min of sleep. (I put her down and she fell asleep right away without holding her, but she took her paci).
3) a huge 4 hour awake time before bedtime.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

If you do want to keep the soother you could start now teaching your lo to repkug. We made a sort of game out of it on the floor by laying a bunch around for practice and guiding their hand to pick it up. For DD3 we also got the glow in the dark kind, much easier to spot at night!

Gagging is actually pretty normal as they learn to move the food around in their mouths (well it was for my kids anyways) and is not the same as choking. But if she isn't able to sit on her own she may not be quite ready yet.

[*Ali*]

As PP said gagging is normal. Babies' gag reflexes are much further forward in their mouths than an adult's so they gag well before we would and before they are close to choking. It is how they learn to move food back to the front of their mouths. I know it can be scary the first time though. Banana is quite a difficult texture too as it gets stuck to the roof of the mouth easily. I'd maybe try something like cooked pear or Apple perhaps.

[Apple001]

MasynSpencerElliotte and Ali, thank you for your suggestions!

[Apple001]

Ok, It's been a week of 3 hour A time and no success.

She falls asleep easy: I put her down, she starts crying, I give her pacifier and she will fall asleep in 2 minutes. But then she sleeps 25-35 minutes!!!  I'm trying to be there before she wakes up to hold her or even replug the paci, but it doesn't help. She wakes up in a second, rolls to her tummy and is quite happy with herself.  I try to settle her for 10 minutes, but it feels like a waste of time (because she is happy and active) and I end up feeding her.

Do I increase A time even more? But it so hard hard to keep her awake for 3 hours (especially in the morning), I don't think she would be able to do a longer A time. I try to make sure that she spends her A time as active as possible (Since she sleeps only 30 minutes, I end up working during her A time, and therefore my FIL is usually with her during A time).

Last Sunday was the only "good nap" day: first nap - one hour, second nap - 2 hours (I was there both times to extend it by holding her arms). There were some naps with 45 minutes, but most of them are in the 25-35 minute range.

Our EASY schedule:
WU/E 7 am
A 3 hours with cereal around 9am (she doesn't take much: just 3-4 spoons)
S 10-10:30

E 11am
A 3 hours with Fruits/Veggie around noon (she doesn't take much: just 3-4 spoons)
S 2-2:30

E 3pm
A 2 hours
S - I will try to put her for the third nap between 5 and 6 pm, but the third nap rarely happens
E 5:30-6 (if she falls asleep, then 6pm feed time; if she doesn't fall asleep, then I try to nurse her to sleep at 5:30)
A 6-7pm

Bedtime routine at 7pm
E - 7:15pm
BT - before 7:30.

I'm mostly worried about naps now, but just to get a full picture:
She has around 5 night wakings at night. Sometimes I'm able to settle her with the pacifier during some of the those night wakings. But most of the time she doesn't take pacifier. Last night I nursed her to sleep all 5 times.
I also noticed that she does a "mantra cry" between 8-10pm. She settles herself, but I'm worried that I might be reacting too fast during the night wakings. But I'm so tired, that it is easier for me to nurse her.



What should I do to help her with naps:
- Getting rid off pacifier? If so, should I do pu/pd during naps?
- Try some other technique of extending the naps? (which one?) By the way yesterday she fell asleep in the car, and we moved her to crib in 20-25 minutes. She end up sleeping for 1 hour total for that nap.Should I do something similar with her regular naps?
- Increase A time even more?
- Increase solids? (I'm almost forcing those 3-4 spoons into her but she eats them. I'm still waiting till she is able to sit up by herself to try BLW again).
- Wait? (Blame on teething, growth spurt and/or milestones: I noticed a piece of tooth coming out and she just learned how to do a tummy crawl).
- Other?

[Apple001]

Today I had some progress with naps by introducing top-ups before the nap.
Below is her today's EASY:

WU/E 6:35am (BF)
A 3 hours with solids (cereal 2 spoons) at 8:30am and BF top-up at 9am
S: 9:35-10:55 (1h 20 min)

E 11am (BF)
A 3 hours 25 min with Solids (veggie puree 2 spoons) at 12pm and a bottle of BM (70 ml) top-up at 1:20am
S 2:25-3:10 (45 min) (it took her 25 minutes to fall asleep)

E 3:25pm (BF)
A 4 hours with BF top-up at 5:20pm

BT routine start at 7pm
Sleep from 7:20pm


I probably should have had an earlier BT, but DD was not showing any signs of tiredness and I lost track of time.

I will see how the night and tomorrow will go. But are there any problems which might come up with these top-ups?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

We did top ups for ages and they never caused any issues at all. I am sorry but I so far out from the baby stage my advice on routine is not the greatest - plus my youngest was low sleep needs and did not have a normal routine by any standard lol. I would suggest posting in the sleep or easy forum (tbh not sure which suits your queries) but also with and impending tooth and crawling developing it may partially be a case of waiting it out!  As for solids, I would not worry about increasing if she is not interested at this stage milk is the bulk of her nutrition and solids are a complement.