16 mth old - night wakings since forever...

[ideazec]

Hi there, I'm a FTM and have been introduced to BW and have practiced EASY since baby was little till now, however we never got to doing PU/PD or any sleep training or sorts.

He is showing signs of needing to drop a nap, we are still on 2 naps (or try to be) now. Some days he does 2, some days 1. However, his bed time has been going later than we wanted.
I will be doing the transition from 2-1 nap soon, hes coming to 17mths now. However, I worry that he may not be able to do a GOOD long nap. Do I then adjust his bedtime accordingly?
Just calculate A time to be about 4-5 hrs from awake and let him sleep earlier?

Also, since forever.. he always wakes up at night. Sometimes in need of a hug, sometimes a back rub, sometimes a meltdown (could that be a nightmare?) in the middle of the night ... but we have less than 3 nights since his birth of a full night sleep without any wakings. He surprises us with a RARE sleep from 12am to 8am once and it felt like GOLD to us.
Is this normal?

Here is his routine:
8am wake, milk, poo, breakfast
11.30 - 12.00 Nap for 1-2 hours (might need assistance re-settling if he wakes. Recently could do 2.30hrs at times, another sign of needing a 2-1 transition?)
1.00 - 2pm- lunch, bath, play
4pm try to nap.. MAY or may not work... if fails... 5.30 goes for walks
6.30 dinner, bath, play, book
8-10 bed time ( as you can see..bed time is messed up now, there isnt a fixed bed time now  )

Bedtime is messed up now, not sure when to bring him to bed. sometimes we do it too early, he meltsdown.
Could the multiple night wakes be due to OT?


What is the average A time for 16-17 mth toddlers?

Would appreciate your insights and advises.
 

[Buntybear]

i think i would be looking to do the 2nd nap now. Could you start to push that 1st a time out a bit now?

[ideazec]

Thanks for your reply!

We just tried yesterday, cut out 1 nap cold turkey... since he's already sometimes have only 1 nap.. I'm guessing we could just try cold turkey. His nap was short and... his bedtime dragged and he had a late night. Night wakes 4-5 times.

Here's what went down.
8am woke him up. (Should I let him sleep longer if he wants?)
1.30 sleep - (only did 1.5hrs)
3pm till 8pm ready for bed
815 put to bed ... only slept at 10pm. ..

It wasn't so great.

How long does it does it take to settle ?

[Buntybear]

Hi i have just looked back to see what olly was going at 16 months and he was up at 7, nap 12-2, BT was 7-7.30. So that is about a 5 hour A time either side of his nap.

Personally I would be waking up in the morning, as hard as that seems after a late night and NWs. If you don't you will have probs with a nap as he won't be ready for it. You could keep that first  time a bit shorter though so he doesn't get too OT for it.

Hope that helps. It has been a long time since I have dealt with nap problems !

Re the NWs - can he self settle? What sleep training have you done?

[ideazec]

Hi i have just looked back to see what olly was going at 16 months and he was up at 7, nap 12-2, BT was 7-7.30. So that is about a 5 hour A time either side of his nap.

Personally I would be waking up in the morning, as hard as that seems after a late night and NWs. If you don't you will have probs with a nap as he won't be ready for it. You could keep that first  time a bit shorter though so he doesn't get too OT for it.

Hope that helps. It has been a long time since I have dealt with nap problems !

Re the NWs - can he self settle? What sleep training have you done?

Thanks for your reply !

Today he did a 2.30hr nap!!! With some resettling efforts in the middle.

If he wakes 8am,naps 1.30pm -4pm, doesn't that make his new bedtime 9pm?

No we have not done any sleep training on him.... he doesn't self settle at night or day... needs a cuddle/ drink/ back rub etc....

[Buntybear]

yes guess that would be a 9pm BT but that would give him an 11 hour night which isn't too bad.

That is a great nap!  Have you read up about gradual withdrawal. I would think about that an come up with a plan for some sleep training. That should help him resettle for both naps and NWs. If he doesn't know how to do it on his own he will always need you x

[ideazec]

yes guess that would be a 9pm BT but that would give him an 11 hour night which isn't too bad.

That is a great nap!  Have you read up about gradual withdrawal. I would think about that an come up with a plan for some sleep training. That should help him resettle for both naps and NWs. If he doesn't know how to do it on his own he will always need you x

Thanks for your reply...

We had another rough night...

He slept at 11pm last night, after 2 hours of me trying to get him to sleep.
He did 1 nap in the afternoon of about 1.30hrs  and had a 7 hour awake time before he finally fell asleep.

I'm thinking if this is due to cutting away 1 afternoon nap and he's transitioning?

Yes about sleep training.....its going to be a LONG process... he's currently co-sleeping.. so firstly I got to get his crib... (which he usually would only stand and play , have not taught him to sleep alone in his crib yet)... and also to self soothe and sleep.
I've got to cut out the milk before the sleep and also the night wakings issues...

Which would you work on first?

[Buntybear]

Hi, TBH I would tackle naps and BT together. Esp if you want him to go into a cot. It would be confusing to do nap in cot and BT in your bed.

I have asked for some more advice for you as we did not have such a big prop to overcome although I would def read up on GW and decide what you think would be manageable for you. I wonder whether you may need to APOP a short cat nap whilst he is sleep training as he is likely to get OT during it 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Hi there  I will firstly admit I too have never dealt with intensive sleep training at this age (though DD3 has given me a run for my money - gradual withdrawal has been the ticket there even once she was fully able to self settle, actually all three of mine preferrred it and all three are spirited).

My first thought is if you are really truly ready to get your lo in the crib and sleeping independently than the simplest (note I did not say easiest as this will probably be quite tough!) would be to address it all at once as like pp mentions doing naps in the crib and then co-sleeping at night makes no sense, nor does using props some of the time but not others. How is his receptive language? Do you think explaining all the new sleep changes out of the moment might help? Does he have a lovey/paci etc? I have attached a few links about various things I hope might help, but for sure gradual withdrawal would be the way to go in a child who has never self settled. Have a read and let us know what you think and how you think you might proceed so we can help!

Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep

Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps

[ideazec]

yes guess that would be a 9pm BT but that would give him an 11 hour night which isn't too bad.

That is a great nap!  Have you read up about gradual withdrawal. I would think about that an come up with a plan for some sleep training. That should help him resettle for both naps and NWs. If he doesn't know how to do it on his own he will always need you x

Thanks for your reply. We were comfortable with him taking a milk drink, water... and rolling around on our bed and drifting off to sleep previously. It was EASY...
However, now that he is so mobile... he doesnt stay down after his usual drinks and would want to climb down the bed for play again. Needless to say, it takes alot of effort making him stay on the bed to eventually fall asleep.

Thats why I'm thinking if its time for some sleep training... I read up about the GW and it says to do it in small unnoticeable steps... but would one do it that way for moving him from a big bed into sleeping on his crib?

Should I take this change to also add in a step to brush his teeth after milk.. then plop him into his crib?
So it would look something like this.....

Bath > Book> Milk> Brush teeth> Plop into his crib and keep laying him down when he stands up.. and keep repeating.. which eventually he will be crying..

How do I make this work?
I'm quite lost here...

[ideazec]

Hi there  I will firstly admit I too have never dealt with intensive sleep training at this age (though DD3 has given me a run for my money - gradual withdrawal has been the ticket there even once she was fully able to self settle, actually all three of mine preferrred it and all three are spirited).

My first thought is if you are really truly ready to get your lo in the crib and sleeping independently than the simplest (note I did not say easiest as this will probably be quite tough!) would be to address it all at once as like pp mentions doing naps in the crib and then co-sleeping at night makes no sense, nor does using props some of the time but not others. How is his receptive language? Do you think explaining all the new sleep changes out of the moment might help? Does he have a lovey/paci etc? I have attached a few links about various things I hope might help, but for sure gradual withdrawal would be the way to go in a child who has never self settled. Have a read and let us know what you think and how you think you might proceed so we can help!

Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep

Toddlers: Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)

from 2 to 1 nap - how, when and the bumps

Hi there!

Thanks for all those useful links! Is it too late for my son to be on a new bedtime routine?

He sleeps with a stuffed toy.. but I dont see him being overly attached to it, I dont know if that would be considered as a lovey just yet. No hes not on a paci anymore. But when hes on my bed, when hes ready to sleep.. its really quite easy.. he rolls around to find his favourite position and just dozes off to sleep.

Last night, he took a 3.30hr afternoon nap with some resettling! Was it too long? Should I have woken him up?

He then took 1.30hrs to fall asleep at night....

Here was what he did:
Wake 8am
Nap 1230 to 4pm
Sleep 1030 (went to bed at 9, took 1.30hrs to sleep)

The challenge now is on how to make him lie down and sleep in his crib... He would be walking around in it and I dont know how long it would take for him to sleep.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Tbh at this age you will get a lot of protest and crying I think...but if you stay consistent he will catch on to the new routine quickly. The fact that if he is tired he actually does settle well is great, it may take longer in the crib at first but he will get used to it eventually. Will the crib be in another room or with you?

I would yes that was way too long of a nap...ideally the day should be 12 ish hours or so, so to keep bedtime earlier the nap would need to be capped at a certain time. He may just have been having a catch up though!

[ideazec]

Tbh at this age you will get a lot of protest and crying I think...but if you stay consistent he will catch on to the new routine quickly. The fact that if he is tired he actually does settle well is great, it may take longer in the crib at first but he will get used to it eventually. Will the crib be in another room or with you?

I would yes that was way too long of a nap...ideally the day should be 12 ish hours or so, so to keep bedtime earlier the nap would need to be capped at a certain time. He may just have been having a catch up though!

Hi Heidi,

The crying and protest would be tough... he tends to cry till he vomits.
At what point should I stop?

Yes the crib is in our room.. we do not have enough rooms to have him in a room alone.
Do you think its a good idea to lower the railing of the crib and have it face our master bed? Would that make transition easier you think? haha

All right, I will take note to cap his nap times from now.. but he rarely does such a long nap so you're right.. I think he was catching up on lost sleep.

[Buntybear]

Hi - it is good he caught up on some sleep but you can see the effect of the long nap on his BT - when do you get any YOU time with a BT of 10.30? I am afraid it does need to be capped. Esp if you want to sleep train- he needs to be tired at BT otherwise you have no hope of getting him to stay put!

If his crib is in your room I do think that this is going to be a hard transition as obviously he is going to see your bed and want to be in it. Presumably when you say he goes to sleep OK on your bed then you are with him? What other props do you have, what is your routine?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

With regard to the crib I would start with it placed wherever you want it to be...I would be concerned that with the side lowered by the bed he may just attempt esape?

Have you done either of these?  Sometimes temperment can figure in to the best approach - I know my spirited girls did not do well with certain aspects of sleep training!

The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"
The BW "Know Your Toddler Quiz"

[ideazec]

Update:

So Ive made some changes to how I'm putting him to bed... I know it isnt perfect yet but for TWO days now.. I have put him on bed in his own crib with a bottle of milk and water.
His crib is just beside mine, so I lie beside him and comforts him with a back rub when he calls out for me.

So the 1st night, he took 1 hour to fall asleep.. talking to himself. 2nd night he took 45 mins...

I have been doing this with him tired, so as to increase the chances of him falling asleep. Usually if I do this with him on our bed, he sleeps immediately.
Question is: what is the average acceptable time frame for a 17mth toddler to fall asleep independently? 1 hour or 45 mins seem mighty long...

Also, I would like to work on giving him milk.. then brush his teeth.. then sleep.

I was thinking to first work on getting him to sleep on his crib, when hes used to it .. then work on the brushing of teeth.
Now its milk in bed and sleep. I'm thinking its quite a big change as the milk could really calm him down but I'm worried of the possible teeth decay.

Any advise?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I think falling asleep really varies - some kids need the wind down time. 30-45 min would probably be the most I would let go before tweaking routine. If the milk was removed from bedtime would he have less to fuss around with and perhaps sleep sooner?

[ideazec]

I think falling asleep really varies - some kids need the wind down time. 30-45 min would probably be the most I would let go before tweaking routine. If the milk was removed from bedtime would he have less to fuss around with and perhaps sleep sooner?

Hey Heidi !

The 3rd night, he fell asleep immediately drinking his milk on his crib. The 4th night, just when he was falling asleep he fussed  (but he is down with a cold now).

The thing is, he is really looking forward to the milk and he would happily lie down drinking his milk peacefully. If it was removed, I just dont know if he would wind down and lie down to sleep.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I get that but it is really not great for his teeth to be having milk right at bed without brushing first...might be easier to bite the bullet with that now rather than when he is older! Fx his cold is not too bad, we are just getting over one too.....healthy vibes ~~~~

[Buntybear]

Hi, you don't want the bottle to come a prop really, and as Heidi says he needs to learn to have his milk and then clean his teeth. Maybe a bottle of water in bed with him only?