Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!

[ecwinters]

Hi
My DS is nearly 6 months old.  He started out as a GREAT night sleeper (even though his daytime sleep was rubbish!) and by 2-3 months was even giving me some 11 hour stretches!  However, by 4 months, he'd regularly wake for 2 feeds although he'd sometimes make it through with 1.  Then, he started to wake every 3-4 hours for a feed, for example, 9:30, 1 and 4.  I tried not to feed him at all these wake ups - and he'd quite often resettle himself anyway. 

Now, he is approaching 6 months and for the past 4 days has been waking up every 1-2 hours!  He also seems to have lost the ability to resettle on his own during the night and is waking up crying miserably - he NEVER used to cry at night!  Sometimes I can pick him up, cuddle him and put him down and he'll go straight to sleep again.  However, other times he'll scream hysterically and I can't put him down again.  I am trying not to feed him more than 2-3 times as I don't want it to become a prop but sometimes it's the only thing that will settle him.  I'm wondering whether he is teething or if this is connected to wonder week 26 - separation anxiety?  He's started to cry miserably when I put him down for daytime naps too recently - it is different to his 'I don't want to go to sleep' cry - this is miserable wailing!

Just wondered if anyone has had any experience of this and had any tips?  He can self-settle and doesn't have a paci.  I have never really done PUPD with him or shh pat as this used to annoy him (he's a touchy baby).  I am trying to put him down awake if I pick him up to comfort him but a few times he's crashed out in my arms anyway after a minute or 2.  I just want to help him get enough sleep!  I have no idea if he's hungry each time or not! He's EBF and I've been giving him a tiny amount of solids for the past weeks (carrot, potato etc.).

I don't think it's connected to day sleep as there is nothing that has changed recently.  His day sleep is pretty shocking but even on the days where he gets a decent amount of sleep, with long naps, nights are the same.

Thanks very much.

[theu.s.lees]

Sending you hugs as I'm in the same exact boat. It's exhausting. I've thought it was teething or this or that. I think I'm to the point where I have to try pupd. I wish I would've started it earlier. So I guess my only advice is that if you have ruled out hunger and teeth to try pupd. Hopefully someone else will chime in as I'm no help but sending hugs.

[ecwinters]

Sending hugs back too!  Things have improved slightly and last night he only woke at 10, 1 and then at 5:15.  How long has your DS/DD been waking up a lot at night?  I try not to feed on each wake up, especially not at 5:15, but it's so hard to know if it's genuine hunger.  His weight gain has been poor recently so I want to get as many calories into him as possible.

I think it must have been teeth or possibly a cold which started him off.  I read your original post and I'm encouraged to see how well your baby sleeps during the day - as I said, I don't think it's related to how much day sleep my DS has.

I suspect that the wake ups at 9:30/10pm and 1:00am are habitual because it's the same time every night!  However, I'm not sure how to deal with this.

[theu.s.lees]

It seems to have started mainly just before 6 months. She has always woken up 1-2 times per night, but it has started getting worse and worse right around 5.5 months or so.

I struggle with the same battle if she's really hungry, or just used to waking, or what. I'm so tired, I just want her to sleep!

[lily_layne]

My DD had a blip at around 5 months with waking every 1-2 hours. It lasted a week or so and then slowly got better. Is there any more improvement? I'd be happy to look at your EASY and see if there's anything that can be done there if you want to post it.

[Lucy-Lou89]

I feel your pain. It's so difficult as you feel that you have resolved sleeping issues when your LO was younger and it all just seems to unravel again following illness or teething.
I have no advice to offer other than I sympathise as I am in the same boat with my LO who is 6 and s half months. I will be keeping a close eye to see if you have any success. Sending hugs and a giant cup of coffee

[ecwinters]

Thanks everyone.  We are going through the 3-2 transition.  Yesterday, we did 2 naps but I'm wondering whether DS was OT by bedtime and this caused some of the wake-ups?  I usually try to squeeze in a catnap but yesterday I opted for an EBT!

Get up - 6:30 (was actually awake from about 6:00am but in cot)
Eat-7:00
Solids-8:00
Sleep-9:10-10:40

Awake-10:40
Eat-11:00
Solids-12:15
Eat (top up feed)-13:00
Sleep: 13:35-14:55

Awake-14:55
Eat-15:30
Solids-17:00
Bath time
Eat-17:40
In bed-18:00
Asleep-18:10

He then woke: 20:00 (I resettled him very quickly with 1 PUPD), 20:40 (tried to PUPD for 20 minutes but eventually gave up and fed), 23:45 (feed), 1:15 (took 25 minutes to resettle with PUPD), 2:55 (feed) and then I heard him awake from 5:45.  He was very OT this morning!

[lily_layne]

I think that even with 2 decent naps it wasn't quite enough to get him through to BT so the earlier NWs were likely OT (which is inevitable during the 3-2). BT may have been earlier than usual but wasn't technically an EBT as his day was a touch longer than 12 hours. EBT works best when the day is less than 12 hours and then hopefully LO does a more than 12 hour night.

How is his mood when he wakes from naps?

[ecwinters]

Ah OK, I always count his day from when I get him up.  Not so long ago, I was getting into a real mess with EWUs and a short A time before nap 1.  So, I started to ignore everything before I got DS up (aimed for a 6:30am start every day) and then took the A time from there.  The first A time is still a little shorter than the others but I felt we were getting somewhere and he usually does a fairly decent nap.  But I see what you mean, if he wakes early then technically that is when his day starts!  Should I be looking at his actual wake up time when thinking about bedtime?  I've been trying to keep him on a 6:30-6:30 12 hour day (with some flexibility at either end).

Today and yesterday we've had really EWUs - yesterday was 5:45 and he was already tired when I got him up at 6:30!  He then did an OT first nap but a better 2nd one - I gave him a catnap and then he was asleep in bed at 6:40pm.  So actually now I look at it, that was a 13 hour day - which may have contributed to the NWs at: 9pm, 10pm, Midnight, 1am and 3am!  He resettled himself for some of these but it's still broken sleep and he woke at 5am this morning!!!  After an hour of hearing him play around I gave him a small feed at around 6am as I hoped this would settle him, which it did, and he then woke again at 7am.  But he was still really tired and jittery and did another OT 1st nap even though I put him down 10 minutes earlier than yesterday.  I've been told not to cut that first A time because it contributes to the EWUs so I'm not really sure what to do?

However, I think you are right and I need to pull bedtime forward if we get EWUs.  I know that if I put DS to bed at 6pm he won't wake up any earlier than if he goes to bed at 6:30pm or 6:45pm.  Would you ever do a 5:45pm bedtime?  I feel I somehow need to get on top of the OT at the moment.  If DS woke at 5am and then went back to sleep for about 45 minutes between 6:15 and 7am would you count his day as starting at 7?  He's still really OT from so much broken night sleep so I'm going to give him an early night in any case - will try for around 6pm.

Waking up from naps - he wakes happy if he's done a nap longer than an hour and if he's done an UT nap (40 mins for him) then he usually wakes happy the first time he does this during the day and then he can get more grumpy f he doesn't catch up somewhere.  At the moment he's waking up jittery as he's still tired - flailing arms and legs etc.  But he's a really happy baby usually, so although I know he's OT because he's more 'wired' - to other people he probably just seems happy. 

Thanks so much - sorry for the long post!

[lily_layne]

No worries about the long post. I have a long one for you! I will try to answer all of your questions. Ask again if I miss some

I would count his day at starting at 7 if he went back to sleep. Have you tried feeding right away when he wakes early (I know he does have other NFs) to see if he resettles faster? That might help you get on top of the OT and then we can work on ditching that feed if he doesn't do it on his. I used to feed DS and pop him in the swing if he woke between 5-6. Sometimes he took 30-45 minutes to go back to sleep but he almost always did.

I have done 5:45 BT and it has worked at getting me a later WU. We'll just watch that you don't get trapped in an early BT, early WU pattern.

I got way too anxious always figuring out the right A time with DD so around this age with DS I tried set naps. The routine I tried was one that another poster on here got from a book. It has shorter A times in the morning and before the afternoon nap and then a longer A to bed. I have found that the short A times work quite well for DS (even at 10 months, he only does 2.5/3 hours in the morning). A lot of routines suggested in other books do have a shorter first A time. Are you interested in seeing the routine?

If you feel that cutting the first A time would help (and that he needs to catch up on some sleep), I would try it. I found with both LOs that if I put them down early for the first nap when they needed it, they usually napped longer. Sometimes when you suspect OT is building it can help just to follow their cues for a day or 2 to let them catch up.

Is he crying or chatting during the NWs? Are you going to him right away or giving him a chance to try to settle himself back to sleep?

[Zagorich]

Sending hugs! Same boat here. We're one week shy of six months and LO has been waking almost every 20-30mins between Bt of 8:30 and 11:30pm. Mostly she'll be out as soon as I try resttle her, other times she needs a bigger cuddle. Not searching for boob or usual teething signs. We're right in the 3-2nap transition as well. Only thing to do is keep on keeping on! Deep breaths and lots of hugs coming your way

[ecwinters]

Thanks so much for replying and sorry for the delay - DH has been away and there's been no time to sit down with the computer!

Yes - I have tried feeding him around 5am and sometimes he'll go back to sleep but not always.  I don't want to feed him unnecessarily though as I now that I'm feeding him way too much sometimes in the night anyway.  But it's good to get him a bit more sleep so I sometimes do it anyhow.

I'd like to see that routine please.  Daytime naps are a bit unpredictable here and like you I have been getting in a mess with A times.  2 hours and 40 minutes usually works in the mornings but doesn't always get a long nap - it's sometimes 40-50 minutes.  But some days I seem to get short naps whatever I do! The first nap is pretty much set but then the 2nd one depends on the length of the first one so this can then get annoying and I wonder whether setting the 2nd nap might work better?  The only thing is, I don't think DS likes a long A time to bed as he almost always doesn't nap well and gets OT very easily. 

The early NWs he will fuss and try to resettle - and if he doesn't make it he'll cry miserably.  I'll wait until he cries and then go in as if I go in when he is fussing he will normally cry!  It doesn't appear to make any difference.  Sometimes if he cries by the time I get to his cot he's stopped crying and is sucking his thumb again so it's all a bit confusing! If he wakes up at 5/5:30am he'll usually play and talk to himself.  Sometimes he'll call out eventually if he doesn't manage to go back to sleep! I do try not to go in during the early morning (unless to feed) as he will try to talk to me and gets too excited to see me!

I've put him to bed slightly earlier the last few nights and I think he's gradually becoming less OT.  But his nights are still more fragmented than I'd like and he hasn't had 2 proper naps during the day for a few days - 1 if I'm lucky. 

[lily_layne]

The first nap is pretty much set but then the 2nd one depends on the length of the first one so this can then get annoying and I wonder whether setting the 2nd nap might work better?

This is what I did with DD and I always wondered that too. I spent way, way too much time trying to find the perfect A time to get a decent second nap (and never really did.)

The set nap routine I used at 6 months (and that lasted over 3 months) was:
WU: 6-7
S: 9:30-11
S: 1:30-3
BT: 7
The book does suggest limiting the naps to 1hr 15 each to start with (if "average" sleep needs not "high") and then let bub increase to 1hr 30 if they are doing consistent naps.  I didn't do this though because DS likes a lot of sleep but might be worth a shot in your case.I have learnt by trial and error that if my LO only short naps the morning nap, I put him down 30 min early for his afternoon nap; and if we have a really rotten day (2 short naps, or only one nap) I put him to bed 30 mins early, and he seems to catch up overnight. I think you want to stick as close as you can to the times for the first few days though. I would maybe only do 15 minutes early if he short naps so that his body learns that he needs to sleep at those times.

I know the A time to bed seems really long but the poster I got this from wrote: "To be honest, I always thought it was too long when I first started following this routine and I used to make the second nap later and bedtime 6:30pm.  BUT... I only got a long afternoon nap maybe half of the time.  When I eventually followed the routine exactly, LO started taking a longer afternoon nap and sleeping in later in the morning.  Go figure.  It doesn't make sense to me but I think it is to do with the body clock - if they "know" they've got a big break between second nap and bedtime, their body makes sure they take a longer afternoon nap."

That said, if your LO is still often having a 3rd nap, I think you could throw in a short CN to get through to BT or you could aim for BT 3 hours after the second nap ends (if it's past 3 pm) which is what I did. I also didn't cap the second nap - I just let him wake on his own.

I'm here to hold your hand if you want to give it a shot.

[ecwinters]

That looks a great routine.  I wish DS would do that!  However, I don't think he'd last from his WU (usually around 5:45am!) until 9:30am.  I've been having issues with that 1st nap recently and he's only doing 30-35 minutes.  Sometimes we get a longer one.  The second nap is more reliable if the first one is short - but it's rare to get two long ones.  I think I am stuck with 3 naps for the time being until he gradually does longer.  He used to NEVER do over 45 minutes so he's getting better, we're just not quite there yet. 

Did you still feed your LO at 6 months?  He never really wants the 2nd feed at night (if I offer him one) but sometimes it's the only way of getting him back to sleep.  Last night he was awake from about 1:30 until 2:45 playing at first and then crying until I gave in and fed him.  He fed for 2 minutes and then pulled off so I put him back down and he went to sleep.  He then woke at 5:30am but was clearly exhausted this morning I don't think he's waking up because he's undertired.

[lily_layne]

He used to NEVER do over 45 minutes so he's getting better, we're just not quite there yet. 

Yay for small victories! If you're getting a longer second nap after a short first one, I wouldn't worry to much about it. Keeping a third nap in there is a good idea for now and that first one may lengthen on it's own.

I did feed at pretty much all NWs at 6 months (and still do on the nights he wakes at 10 months). Sometimes I have good intentions of trying something else but before I know it, my half-asleep self is in the rocker with DS on my breast! It hasn't become a prop issue. He rarely falls asleep on the breast. I just let him eat however much (or little) he wants and then put him down and he goes off on his own. He did start STTN on his own without any sleep training. DS had a lot of looooooooooong, chatty NWs at that age and I found that if I went in and fed after 20 minutes of chatting (even if he didn't fuss) then he would settle back to sleep.

I was thinking if you wanted to try set naps, you could use the 5 month old routine from the book which is:
WU: 6-7
S: 9-10:30
S: 1-2:30
CN if needed
BT: 6:30/7
I think the idea is that by pushing that nap until 9 they will learn to sleep later.

[becj86]

Hi, thought I'd just pop on so you've another set of eyes.

Just a few questions
 - how long before these waking started did you start offering solids at 5pm? Sometimes just feeling solids going through the digestive system at night is enough to have LO waking - its an unfamiliar feeling initially.
 - Yes, you could have some separation anxiety stuff happening with the 26wk leap - this is when LO really needs the environment when they stir/transition from sleep cycle to cycle to be the same as it was when they fell asleep, so white noise that stops or a night light that you turn off as you leave the room, even you being in the room as he goes to sleep but not when he stirs can have him waking and wanting you, yk?

When is he waking now?

[ecwinters]

Thanks.  Yes, that routine is more where we are at now but I know I need to keep pushing his A time to 3 hours. 

About feeding on all NWs - sometimes he wakes 6 times in the night and won't want feeding at all wake ups.  But I wonder if the NWs escalate because he gets OT when I don't jump in there and feed him straight off.  For example, last night:
18:15-asleep
21:15-woke, fussed, cried, which escalated to hysterical screaming after I started going in. Fed for 2 mins and he resettled by 21:30.
00:30-feed. Asleep at 00:40.
3:40-woke and grizzled intermittently. Did not go in as he kept nearly resettling. But after an hour gave up and gave quick feed in the hope he'd sleep until morning.
5:30-was awake! Did not want food. Tried to chat to me when I went in. Played for half an hour then grizzled. Eventually cried about 6:15 so went in again. Hysterical when I cuddled him on bed but suddenly fell asleep!  Woke him at 7 am.

I HATE long NWs as I don't sleep and lie there worrying about DS not sleeping!  If I'd fed at 3:40 he'd probably have then slept until about 5:45 which is when he seems to be waking up at the moment.  I'd then have probably got away with not getting him up until 6:30 as he'd have just played for a bit. But 3 feeds in close succession seemed a bit much really particularly as he seemed to be waking after the same number of sleep cycles each time. 

Thanks becj86 for jumping on too!  It's really helpful.
- his night sleep did start to go downhill around the time we introduced solids.  Should I cut back on tea do you think?  He eats lots of breakfast, but sometimes isn't bothered by lunch.
-He's 28 and a half weeks now.  I did think of separation anxiety too.  I leave the room before he's asleep so I don't think it's that but who knows?  He's a lot less happy being left in another room during the day too, although sometimes is fine and happy playing if he's engrossed in something.

Every night is different - there is no real pattern apart from he has a tendency to wake up 3 hours after going to sleep.  If I'm lucky then he'll resettle himself at this point but he doesn't always do this. 

[lily_layne]

Yes, that routine is more where we are at now but I know I need to keep pushing his A time to 3 hours.

You can do that to get rid of the third nap or you can just keep shortening that 3rd nap until it disappears and have a long last A time. Are the nights any better on days when he only has 2 naps?

[becj86]

I reckon cutting back on solids in the evening would be a good idea, just for maybe a month til his body gets a bit more used to solids.

Those long NWs sound like UT - I'd try pushing that first nap later.

Waking 3hr after going to sleep is not generally an OT thing, its more likely hunger, discomfort or habit. Stopping solids in the evening could help... Have you recently weaned a dream feed?

Can you post a full day just so we can see what's happening now?

[ecwinters]

Are the nights any better on days when he only has 2 naps?

To be honest, a 2 nap day is rare as he doesn't usually nap for long enough!  At best, it's usually 2 plus a very short catnap (even just 15 minutes).  I haven't noticed any link between nap length and night sleep really.  It's quite annoying!

I reckon cutting back on solids in the evening would be a good idea, just for maybe a month til his body gets a bit more used to solids.

The wake ups 3 hours after him going to bed have been happening for a while - before he went on to solids so I don't think it can be that.  I have no idea what it is though!  I think it's probably habitual waking.  We did try a dream feed ages ago - and then stopped it as it made no difference, but the wake ups 3 hours after bed time carried on!  So maybe he learnt it then and now can't stop it.  It has been going on and off for about 2 or 3 months now.  Even when he doesn't actually wake he will come into very light sleep then and may wake briefly before settling again.   Not sure what we can do about this though?  He woke at this time last night and was clearly hungry when I fed him.  The other times he woke during the night he wasn't hungry (even when I fed him) so maybe he's just got used to feeding at this time?

There is no typical full day I'm afraid.  We're also battling with the fact the clocks are due to change here soon so we've shifted him to a 7-7 schedule in the last couple of days.  This has confused his body clock I think as this morning I got an OT sleep after 2 hours and 45 minutes of A time when usually this would be fine.  But this was a few days ago (when the night time was about as good as it ever gets!):

Wake up-5:30
Get up-6:25
Eat-7:00
Solids-8:00
Sleep-8:45-9:18

Awake-9:18
Eat-11:00
Sleep-12:00-13:30

Awake-13:30
Solids-13:40 (usually try for before nap 2 but he was too tired)
Eat-15:00
Sleep (in stroller)-16:15-40

Solids-17:00
Bath time
Eat-17:40
Bedtime-18:00
Asleep-18:10
18:10-asleep
21:20-brief wake up (fussing, one cry) but resettled himself
23:20-fussed then cried. Feed.
5:40-heard him awake. Eventually fussed a lot so gave quick feed at 5:55. Didn't go back to sleep but not surprising given bedtime.

Thanks so much!

[becj86]

Ok, sounds like that 3hr after BT waking is habitual - have you tried wake to sleep? You basically go in an hour before he's likely to wake and stroke his cheek enough to make him stir but not wake (yes, its nerve-wracking for the sleep-deprived parent). That resets the sleep cycle and usually helps to train LO to sleep through that waking. You have to do it for about a week, then stop and see if it made a difference.

Totally normal at this age to have 1-2 night feeds, so I wouldn't feel bad about feeding if its been 4hr or more since his last feed. To this point, I'd not worry about waiting to see if he resettled around midnight, I'd just get up, feed as quietly and quickly as possible and put back into bed.

With him lying in bed for a long time in the morning, its hard to know how long he's been "awake" for the purpose of A time. I'd hazard a guess that is worth pushing that first nap later - its UT length and certainly not encouraging him to sleep later in the AM though you're getting an 11.5hr night which is ideal so it'll be a slow shift unless you jump to a 10am nap and resettle the inevitable OT waking from that nap to shift him to 7-7.

[ecwinters]

Thanks.  No I've never tried wake to sleep as I'm far too scared of waking him!  My DH would be up for trying it though so I will get him to have a go. 

OK I'm glad 2 night feeds is normal.  I haven't started DS on protein yet and he never really eats much lunch so he's probably just hungry.  Last night he woke at 10 and 4 which was fine.  I think he was awake fairly early though but I've been putting him down at 9:30am for the first nap - got 40 minutes today but will keep trying for a few days to see if he settles into it.  I definitely want to encourage him to sleep later in the morning because of the clock change.

Just one other thing - are 40 minute naps always UT?  After a 40 minute nap, DS can sometimes STILL do another 40 minute nap after 2 hours and 45 minutes of A time.  DH (who is far braver than me!) reckons he could do 3 hours after a short nap, but I never really know how far to push it.  I sometimes get a good nap on that A time so maybe it just varies?  I'm thinking of trying set nap times now anyway as I have heard that after 6 months their body clock can settle into sleeping at the same times each day better.  But I'd like to make sure I'm putting him down at the 'right' times even so.

Thanks.

[becj86]

How old is he now?

OT is much easier to deal with than UT, I'd let DH push and see how it goes DS was slightly older when he started it, but he went really well for a while on a 4-3-2 routine (maybe around 7 months we started that) - so like this:
6 - WU
10 - nap
11:30 - wake
2:30 - nap
4 - wake
6 - BT

He may well be one of those babes for whom lying in the cot even awake is almost equivalent to being asleep so he may need more first thing in the morning.

You could well give set naps at say 10 and 2 a go - should work pretty well at least for a while.

[lily_layne]

I'd let DH push and see how it goes

Those men are always better at pushing A times. They don't let fear of OT get in their way!

Some LOs also like a 2-3-4 routine. It just depends on if you have an lark (wide awake and happy all morning) or an owl (more awake in the evening).

[lily_layne]

This is a routine another poster tried with her LO that has a short morning nap:

I had some rough times with my DS around that age. It's pretty common. The BEST advise I got was to try this. Figure out how much sleep HE needs. Instead of trying to make him fit what a book says. Keep track of this over a few days. Chances are you already know  is it pretty steady? Usually 13/14 hours? Maybe that is what he needs.  If not then just disregard the rest of this... Sorry, this is what worked for my baby and what I SHOULD have done with DD1 but I was so SET on getting her 15 hours of sleep a day. Anyway, if it is lower then try reducing the night sleep from 12 hrs to 11 or even 10. You can keep him up later, or wake him up earlier or split the the difference but reduce night sleep. Then you can more evenly distribute naps. This was our schedule around 5 months and it was not what ANYONE would have told me to do but it WORKED!! All our short naps ended! Night waking a went back down to 1, like 5am. WU 7 Nap 9:30-10:30 wake him up no matter what. Nap 2- as long as he wanted to sleep (and he would regularly sleep until 4pm)Bed 8!!

[ecwinters]

He will be 7 months on the 23rd of this month.  I think he's always been UT although I struggle with that concept as I worry about him not sleeping enough.  The vast majority of his naps are 40 minutes.

I think he is more of a lark as his awake times tend to decrease during the day even if he's had lots of sleep.  We've been trying set naps at 9:30 and 1 (DH thinks this is too cautious!).  He wakes any time between about 5:45 and 7am at the moment. We've done it for 4 days now. Yesterday went like this:

Get up-7:00 (he woke up before this but not entirely sure when - he was just playing)
7:30-feed
8:30-Solids
Sleep: 9:25/30-9:55 (have no idea why he did this - appears to be OT but I could not resettle him.  But then I've never had much luck resettling DS at any point)

Awake-9:55
11:15-feed
12:15-solids
Sleep: 12:55-14:15 (this is 2 sleep cycles for DS and about as long as I ever get at a stretch during the day)

Awake-14:15
15:10-feed
16:30-solids
Catnap in buggy: 17:05-25
18:00-bath time
18:15-feed
18:35-in cot
18:40-asleep
21:45-usual 3 hourly wake up and feed!
1:00-heard him awake playing! Eventually started to call out but not miserable just annoyed. When I reassured him - straight away angry screams. Eventually quietened down. Then started up again. Eventually gave 3 minute feed and quick cuddle - back down by 1:20.
3:20-feed
6:45-he woke up

I am amazed that he could do a 3 hour A with so little sleep for his first nap!  If we weren't doing set times I would have put him down far earlier.  I am still planning on capping that first nap, partly because if I let him go longer than 40 minutes for the first nap it's rare to get a good 2nd nap (although maybe I just need to stretch the A time out even more?) and partly because he still needs a catnap in there somewhere at the moment. 

It may be that pushing that first nap to 9:30 has helped the early wake ups - but it's a bit soon to say for definite.  Even if he wakes at 6 then I'm just sticking to 9:30am. 

Becj86 - your routine looks like something we could work towards but a 4 hour A scares me!  Bet DH would give it a go though. Was 6:00 the time you got your DS up or did he wake up then and you got him up a bit later?

I'm still confused by the nights but I think it's a feed-sleep association most probably which I can do little about until I can cut night feeds.  At the moment it is confusing DS feeding him sometimes and not other times I think. Getting rid of EWUs would be wonderful though!

Thanks everyone once again.

[becj86]

Was 6:00 the time you got your DS up or did he wake up then and you got him up a bit later?

Yes, he got up at 6. It was what we had to do to catch the boat to work but also, I'm an early bird and that suits me and most importantly, it also suited his body clock. He did much better with a 6-6 routine than 7-7 which we tried valiantly at for a long time.

We've been trying set naps at 9:30 and 1 (DH thinks this is too cautious!).

DH is right - this will be perpetuating those EWs and is probably why he was up playing in the middle of the night. I'd shift that to 10 and 2:30. He really should be through the 3:2 nap transition by now, he'd be incredibly high sleep needs to still be on 3 naps at this age.

Average at 7 months would be something like 3:15-3:30 A time.

I think once you push those A times the night will fall into place much more easily if not by itself.

I'm of the opinion that more people make their child OT by not pushing A enough than by pushing that bit more.

[lily_layne]

I agree with everything bec's said. It is often easier for us to adjust to an LOs WU time than try to change theirs. I spent way too long trying to get DD to wake when I wanted her to - would've been far easier to accept what her body clock wanted and go with it. If you have an early bird, the upside is that they go to bed quite early and you get lots of time in the evening!

If he's a lark, it does sound like the routine bec suggested would work of the one I quoted with a capped am nap and longer pm nap. At 7 months, I would push as hard as you can to get rid of the CN. You might need to do EBT a few days but I think you can get rid of it in a few days.

[ecwinters]

Thanks again both of you.

Had a good few days with capping nap number 1 at 40 minutes and then I got a longer 2nd nap.  So it looked like this:
WU:6-7
Nap 1: 9:30-10:10
Nap 2: 1:00-2:20
Then I fitted in a short catnap just after 5 for about 20/25 minutes
Bedtime: 6:45ish

The EWUs have been better this week - this morning I had to wake him at 7 am!  However, he still woke 3 times in the night.

An early 6-6 or 6:30-6:30 routine works better for us too as we both need to be up early.  However, we have been trying to shift DS towards a 7-7 routine in preparation for the clocks changing in a weeks time.  This evening he actually went to sleep at 7pm for the first time for ages - so that will be 6pm when the clocks change.

I don't think DS is HSN.  I don't think he gets enough daytime sleep as he's NEVER got the 'suggested' amount despite everything I have tried.   But that may be just the way he is.   He only has the catnap because I've never really got him to do 2 longer naps during the day so capping the first nap means I can concentrate on the 2nd nap being longer - but then the A time to bed is still too long.   If I let him do a longer 1st nap then he'll normally struggle to do a good 2nd one too.

DH says from tomorrow we will try:
WU: 6-7 (hopefully nearer 7!)
Nap 1: 9:45-10:25
Nap 2: 1:15-2:35
Short catnap
Bedtime: 7:00

If we wanted to get rid of the catnap, do you think we should let him do 1 hour in the mornings (if he'll do it - sometimes he just wakes up anyway) and then move the 2nd nap later?  We'd really like to keep to a set time for the 2nd nap though - do you think this still works if his 1st nap could (in theory) range from 30 minutes to 1 hour depending what he does? 

But I agree, we will keep pushing that first nap out as we will struggle to get rid of the catnap otherwise.  I am keen to see it go before it gets too cold and dark (I always do it in the stroller)! 

Thanks so much again!

[lily_layne]

I don't think he gets enough daytime sleep as he's NEVER got the 'suggested' amount despite everything I have tried.   But that may be just the way he is.

It is likely the way he is. DD never got the suggested amount either and I used to try everything to get her to sleep more which just frustrated both of us. The amounts are averages so some babies will do more and some less.

I think you could do a set nap time with an am nap between 30-60 minutes. Once he gets used to the set time, 30 minutes more or less of A time shouldn't matter. If you want to ditch the CN, I would keep pushing that am CN. You could also try w2s in the second nap to see if he'll go a bit longer which would help get him through to BT.

[ecwinters]

Sorry to come back on this but it's getting even worse!

We moved the first nap out to 9:45 (from a 7 am) WU time but we are still only getting 30-35 minutes.  He wakes up tired and miserable.

Also, I have just had a 30 minute nap for the 2nd nap too!!  He is so OT but I can very rarely resettle him if he wakes up whether it's an OT or UT sleep - it makes no difference. As he goes to sleep independently there's little I can do unless he does it himself.

Last night he woke 6 times:
8:45 (self settled)
9:45
11:45
12:50
2:00 (self settled)
5:00

Then went back to sleep until 7 am when I woke him.  I feel like I never sleep any more and I don't know what to do to help him!  The only way he will resettle at night is with a feed - only needs to be a couple of minutes so he's not hungry - so he's clearly comfort sucking!

I am dreading tonight after such an awful day of naps! 

I might put his first nap back to 9:30 because it has only made it worse - at least I was getting a longer 2nd nap most of the time.  We are nowhere near getting rid of that catnap as he'd have to do a much longer 1st nap.  Arrgghh!

We are a bit at a loss now.

[becj86]

Maybe he just needs his A times increased in smaller increments - if he's so difficult to resettle it might be easier to increase by 5min every few days than in 15min chunks.

What was the reasoning behind capping the morning nap at 40min?

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))) If he was giving you a better nap at 9:30, I would stick with that.

[ecwinters]

Yes - he's pretty much impossible to resettle!  I do try - but he can keep up the screaming for 45 minutes so I often just get him up straight away.

The problem with the morning nap is that he'll normally do a short nap (40 minutes).  So we decided to start capping it at 40 minutes because then at least I'd know when the 2nd nap would be!  It was getting so unpredictable.  Also, when he did do a longer 1st nap it was very very rare to get a decent 2nd nap even with a longer A time.  He doesn't usually get 3 hours of sleep during the day (he may or may not need it - who knows!?) it's more like 2-2.5 hours.  So I think two 1.5 hour naps would be too much for him possibly.  The other day he did a 40 minute nap, then a 1.5 hour one - waking at 2:40pm.  He then refused a catnap and went to bed at 7pm.  He didn't wake up until his usual 3 hourly wake up and didn't sleep any worse (or sadly any better!) than usual and didn't seem overtired even though I would never willingly keep him up for over 4 hours!

I think ideally I'd like to get an hour out of him in the morning and then a longer 2nd nap - and get rid of the catnap.  Once the clocks have changed I will start slowly pushing the A time in the morning to see if that helps.  He did 2 hours and 50 minutes (he woke early) this morning and still only did his usual 40 minutes.

One thing that has happened in the last two days - 2 teeth have started to come through (front bottom) - his first two!  I would love to put the last month of terrible nights down to teeth but don't believe I can!  Giving him meds makes no difference to his nights.

Another thing - I was reading another post on this board and realised I should have mentioned that DS had silent reflux when he was younger.  He was on meds for that but it upset him, so I literally cut everything out of my diet that might irritate his reflux, raised his cot on a slant and he was much better - it had basically cleared by 5 months.  Anyway, since we've been on solids, a few foods have seemed to make the reflux flare up again - apples, carrots (maybe?) and mangoes.  We tried cheese yesterday just because I want to try him on dairy and he is really refluxy and hiccupy today.  Went back to the doctor and got new meds - so will start trying them and see if they make a difference.  His cot is still raised on a slant. He doesn't appear to be waking up choking as he did when he was younger, but I guess if he's even a bit uncomfortable then this might disturb him enough to not resettle by himself?

Sorry for another huge post!

[lily_layne]

Reflux certainly could be causing sleep problems. We have a reflux board if you want more specific support for that (and lots of mamas with reflux experience).

It ok if you choose not to resettle. Life's too short to be spent in a dark room trying to get a baby back to sleep. Some moms on here just made the decision to not resettle and get on with their day after short naps as it just added too much stress.

It sounds like you know that 3 hours day sleep is just not what he needs. Some LO's just don't and it can cause lots of problems trying to get them to sleep more than they need. The day you posted with the 4 hours to bed actually doesn't sound too ridiculous. A lot of routines in other books/websites have shorter first A times and a long A to bed. If you felt 4 hours was too long, you could go for BT 3-3.5 hours after the last nap (so if he woke at 240 aiming for asleep by 615ish). I have been rereading BWSAYP and Tracy mentions only a 2/2.5 hr first A time at 6 months (nap around 9/930 if awake at 7) and a longer last A once the CN is gone rather than pushing all As out to ditch the CN.

[ecwinters]

Thanks, I will go over and have a look at the reflux board.  So far it's inconclusive whether the meds are making a difference. The bottom teeth are both through but there may be top ones coming through...and he has a cold!  There seems to be always something.

I think he may just like a shorter first A time.  The issue with DS is that he almost never sleeps until getting up time so the A time from wake up to nap 1 always varies - which is why I like setting that first nap as it's too unpredictable otherwise.  At the moment I do a 2.5 hour A between getting up and nap number 1 - sometimes he is falling asleep as I'm putting him into his sleeping bag but other times he's fine.  DH is reluctant to cut this A time as he feels it will make the EWUs worse - but I'm not sure.

After some dreadful nights, we decided to try cutting out all the feeds except the first feed.  It wasn't helping DS sleep well - he was practically waking up every sleep cycle for milk at once point!  I am reluctant to cut out all feeds as I am not 100% sure that he won't be hungry even though he eats well in the day.  The first night it took DH 1.5 hours to resettle DS for one of the wake ups and we had many other shorter ones.  However the next night I resettled him 4 times and it was quite quick each time.  Last night we also tried wake to sleep for the first wake up, as it's definitely habitual, and he woke up 40 minutes later than he normally does - and then slept through until after 6am!  We are going to keep on trying the wake to sleep and see what happens tonight.

I would prefer to feed DS early morning as I think this would encourage him to resettle and sleep later - do you think this might work?  Or would it disturb him more?  I would have no idea how to introduce that feed though - I'd also have to cut out the early night feed too.

Also, now the clocks have changed we are stuck on a 6am-6pm routine which is a little early for us - also makes EBT a bit too early!  I have no idea how to shift the schedule of a baby who doesn't ever sleep through until wake up time though - I can't wake him up 5 minutes later each day and putting him to bed later doesn't make him wake up later.  Should I just try getting him up 5 minutes later each day and shift feeds, naps etc. accordingly?

Many thanks for your help.

[lily_layne]

It is always something, isn't it! I hope the cold doesn't last long.

That's great that you're seeing progress at night! Keep at it - you may hit a blip around night 3 or 4 but keep going and you should see improvement again. Keeping 1-2 NFs is totally reasonable at this age. WRT the early feeding, if he's not waking between 4 and 5 there's probably not much you can do. My DD preferred her NF earlier in the night whereas DS was more of an early morning guy. If he is waking then, a feed would likely help him sleep a bit longer.

  The issue with DS is that he almost never sleeps until getting up time

What do you mean by getting up time?

If he's waking at 6 with the clock change, when was he waking before? If it was 7 then that may be earlier than you like but definitely not an EWU! There's likely not much you can do to get him to sleep later than 7 so I wouldn't push that nap later if you've discovered he likes that shorter A time first thing. Really, almost all other routines I've seen have that first nap at 9/930 after 2/2.5 hours of A time. It just seems to work well with most LO's body clocks. I found that the first nap was easy to set. I just went off of DS's usual wake time and a 2.5 h A time so it ended up being at 9:30. If he woke earlier (say 6), I would put him down at 9/9:15. Even if he slept in until 730/745 he was still ready for the 930 nap. It worked great.

We don't change clocks where I live so I don't have experience but I think a lot of parents just push BT 15 minutes later every 3-4 days until you are back to where you were before. There may be some other threads about it or something in the FAQs.

[ecwinters]

Hi!
Getting up time - a while ago I decided to set the time I got DS up as he always woke at a different time each morning (sometimes would sleep until 7, other times woke before 6) and this was throwing the whole day off.  If he's crying then I do get him up, but if he's playing and/or dozing then I just leave him and get him up at the same time each day.  I've always ignored the time spent in the cot as it gets too confusing otherwise.

To be honest, the first nap isn't great at the moment - today it was 25-30 minutes, yesterday was 35 minutes and the day before was 40.  I have looked and looked for patterns and the ideal A time in the morning but even if he wakes at the same time two days running and the A time and activities are the same, one day it can be a rubbish nap and the next day I'll have to wake him.  That's really why we started capping that first nap - so at least I'd be able to set the second nap as well and have some predictability. 

I've pushed bed time by 10 minutes tonight but I don't think this will make him wake any later.  I may have to post about shifting schedules if I can't find any threads about it! 
Thanks

[lily_layne]

That makes sense with the getting up time. I do pretty much the same with my LOs. Capping the first nap so you can have predictability was a sanity saver for me. I was always second guessing otherwise and I got tired of calculating A times. I think Tracy says somewhere in BWAYP that LOs between 6-9 months often do have one short nap and there's not much you can do to change it.

Sorry that I'm no help with shifting. Feel free to start a post if you need.