Author Topic: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!  (Read 5354 times)

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Offline becj86

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2015, 19:55:18 pm »
Hi, thought I'd just pop on so you've another set of eyes.

Just a few questions
 - how long before these waking started did you start offering solids at 5pm? Sometimes just feeling solids going through the digestive system at night is enough to have LO waking - its an unfamiliar feeling initially.
 - Yes, you could have some separation anxiety stuff happening with the 26wk leap - this is when LO really needs the environment when they stir/transition from sleep cycle to cycle to be the same as it was when they fell asleep, so white noise that stops or a night light that you turn off as you leave the room, even you being in the room as he goes to sleep but not when he stirs can have him waking and wanting you, yk?

When is he waking now?

Offline ecwinters

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2015, 17:27:03 pm »
Thanks.  Yes, that routine is more where we are at now but I know I need to keep pushing his A time to 3 hours. 

About feeding on all NWs - sometimes he wakes 6 times in the night and won't want feeding at all wake ups.  But I wonder if the NWs escalate because he gets OT when I don't jump in there and feed him straight off.  For example, last night:
18:15-asleep
21:15-woke, fussed, cried, which escalated to hysterical screaming after I started going in. Fed for 2 mins and he resettled by 21:30.
00:30-feed. Asleep at 00:40.
3:40-woke and grizzled intermittently. Did not go in as he kept nearly resettling. But after an hour gave up and gave quick feed in the hope he'd sleep until morning.
5:30-was awake! Did not want food. Tried to chat to me when I went in. Played for half an hour then grizzled. Eventually cried about 6:15 so went in again. Hysterical when I cuddled him on bed but suddenly fell asleep!  Woke him at 7 am.

I HATE long NWs as I don't sleep and lie there worrying about DS not sleeping!  If I'd fed at 3:40 he'd probably have then slept until about 5:45 which is when he seems to be waking up at the moment.  I'd then have probably got away with not getting him up until 6:30 as he'd have just played for a bit. But 3 feeds in close succession seemed a bit much really particularly as he seemed to be waking after the same number of sleep cycles each time. 

Thanks becj86 for jumping on too!  It's really helpful.
- his night sleep did start to go downhill around the time we introduced solids.  Should I cut back on tea do you think?  He eats lots of breakfast, but sometimes isn't bothered by lunch.
-He's 28 and a half weeks now.  I did think of separation anxiety too.  I leave the room before he's asleep so I don't think it's that but who knows?  He's a lot less happy being left in another room during the day too, although sometimes is fine and happy playing if he's engrossed in something.

Every night is different - there is no real pattern apart from he has a tendency to wake up 3 hours after going to sleep.  If I'm lucky then he'll resettle himself at this point but he doesn't always do this. 

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 02:20:05 am »
Yes, that routine is more where we are at now but I know I need to keep pushing his A time to 3 hours.
You can do that to get rid of the third nap or you can just keep shortening that 3rd nap until it disappears and have a long last A time. Are the nights any better on days when he only has 2 naps?
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline becj86

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 08:55:13 am »
I reckon cutting back on solids in the evening would be a good idea, just for maybe a month til his body gets a bit more used to solids.

Those long NWs sound like UT - I'd try pushing that first nap later.

Waking 3hr after going to sleep is not generally an OT thing, its more likely hunger, discomfort or habit. Stopping solids in the evening could help... Have you recently weaned a dream feed?

Can you post a full day just so we can see what's happening now?

Offline ecwinters

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 17:43:19 pm »
Are the nights any better on days when he only has 2 naps?

To be honest, a 2 nap day is rare as he doesn't usually nap for long enough!  At best, it's usually 2 plus a very short catnap (even just 15 minutes).  I haven't noticed any link between nap length and night sleep really.  It's quite annoying!

I reckon cutting back on solids in the evening would be a good idea, just for maybe a month til his body gets a bit more used to solids.

The wake ups 3 hours after him going to bed have been happening for a while - before he went on to solids so I don't think it can be that.  I have no idea what it is though!  I think it's probably habitual waking.  We did try a dream feed ages ago - and then stopped it as it made no difference, but the wake ups 3 hours after bed time carried on!  So maybe he learnt it then and now can't stop it.  It has been going on and off for about 2 or 3 months now.  Even when he doesn't actually wake he will come into very light sleep then and may wake briefly before settling again.   Not sure what we can do about this though?  He woke at this time last night and was clearly hungry when I fed him.  The other times he woke during the night he wasn't hungry (even when I fed him) so maybe he's just got used to feeding at this time?

There is no typical full day I'm afraid.  We're also battling with the fact the clocks are due to change here soon so we've shifted him to a 7-7 schedule in the last couple of days.  This has confused his body clock I think as this morning I got an OT sleep after 2 hours and 45 minutes of A time when usually this would be fine.  But this was a few days ago (when the night time was about as good as it ever gets!):

Wake up-5:30
Get up-6:25
Eat-7:00
Solids-8:00
Sleep-8:45-9:18

Awake-9:18
Eat-11:00
Sleep-12:00-13:30

Awake-13:30
Solids-13:40 (usually try for before nap 2 but he was too tired)
Eat-15:00
Sleep (in stroller)-16:15-40

Solids-17:00
Bath time
Eat-17:40
Bedtime-18:00
Asleep-18:10
18:10-asleep
21:20-brief wake up (fussing, one cry) but resettled himself
23:20-fussed then cried. Feed.
5:40-heard him awake. Eventually fussed a lot so gave quick feed at 5:55. Didn't go back to sleep but not surprising given bedtime.

Thanks so much!

Offline becj86

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2015, 20:38:25 pm »
Ok, sounds like that 3hr after BT waking is habitual - have you tried wake to sleep? You basically go in an hour before he's likely to wake and stroke his cheek enough to make him stir but not wake (yes, its nerve-wracking for the sleep-deprived parent). That resets the sleep cycle and usually helps to train LO to sleep through that waking. You have to do it for about a week, then stop and see if it made a difference.

Totally normal at this age to have 1-2 night feeds, so I wouldn't feel bad about feeding if its been 4hr or more since his last feed. To this point, I'd not worry about waiting to see if he resettled around midnight, I'd just get up, feed as quietly and quickly as possible and put back into bed.

With him lying in bed for a long time in the morning, its hard to know how long he's been "awake" for the purpose of A time. I'd hazard a guess that is worth pushing that first nap later - its UT length and certainly not encouraging him to sleep later in the AM though you're getting an 11.5hr night which is ideal so it'll be a slow shift unless you jump to a 10am nap and resettle the inevitable OT waking from that nap to shift him to 7-7.

Offline ecwinters

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 19:44:54 pm »
Thanks.  No I've never tried wake to sleep as I'm far too scared of waking him!  My DH would be up for trying it though so I will get him to have a go. 

OK I'm glad 2 night feeds is normal.  I haven't started DS on protein yet and he never really eats much lunch so he's probably just hungry.  Last night he woke at 10 and 4 which was fine.  I think he was awake fairly early though but I've been putting him down at 9:30am for the first nap - got 40 minutes today but will keep trying for a few days to see if he settles into it.  I definitely want to encourage him to sleep later in the morning because of the clock change.

Just one other thing - are 40 minute naps always UT?  After a 40 minute nap, DS can sometimes STILL do another 40 minute nap after 2 hours and 45 minutes of A time.  DH (who is far braver than me!) reckons he could do 3 hours after a short nap, but I never really know how far to push it.  I sometimes get a good nap on that A time so maybe it just varies?  I'm thinking of trying set nap times now anyway as I have heard that after 6 months their body clock can settle into sleeping at the same times each day better.  But I'd like to make sure I'm putting him down at the 'right' times even so.

Thanks.

Offline becj86

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2015, 22:40:36 pm »
How old is he now?

OT is much easier to deal with than UT, I'd let DH push and see how it goes ;) DS was slightly older when he started it, but he went really well for a while on a 4-3-2 routine (maybe around 7 months we started that) - so like this:
6 - WU
10 - nap
11:30 - wake
2:30 - nap
4 - wake
6 - BT

He may well be one of those babes for whom lying in the cot even awake is almost equivalent to being asleep so he may need more first thing in the morning.

You could well give set naps at say 10 and 2 a go - should work pretty well at least for a while.

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2015, 02:09:30 am »
I'd let DH push and see how it goes
Those men are always better at pushing A times. They don't let fear of OT get in their way!

Some LOs also like a 2-3-4 routine. It just depends on if you have an lark (wide awake and happy all morning) or an owl (more awake in the evening).
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2015, 02:12:10 am »
This is a routine another poster tried with her LO that has a short morning nap:
I had some rough times with my DS around that age. It's pretty common. The BEST advise I got was to try this. Figure out how much sleep HE needs. Instead of trying to make him fit what a book says. Keep track of this over a few days. Chances are you already know  is it pretty steady? Usually 13/14 hours? Maybe that is what he needs.  If not then just disregard the rest of this... Sorry, this is what worked for my baby and what I SHOULD have done with DD1 but I was so SET on getting her 15 hours of sleep a day. Anyway, if it is lower then try reducing the night sleep from 12 hrs to 11 or even 10. You can keep him up later, or wake him up earlier or split the the difference but reduce night sleep. Then you can more evenly distribute naps. This was our schedule around 5 months and it was not what ANYONE would have told me to do but it WORKED!! All our short naps ended! Night waking a went back down to 1, like 5am. WU 7 Nap 9:30-10:30 wake him up no matter what. Nap 2- as long as he wanted to sleep (and he would regularly sleep until 4pm)Bed 8!!
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline ecwinters

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2015, 13:01:02 pm »
He will be 7 months on the 23rd of this month.  I think he's always been UT although I struggle with that concept as I worry about him not sleeping enough.  The vast majority of his naps are 40 minutes.

I think he is more of a lark as his awake times tend to decrease during the day even if he's had lots of sleep.  We've been trying set naps at 9:30 and 1 (DH thinks this is too cautious!).  He wakes any time between about 5:45 and 7am at the moment. We've done it for 4 days now. Yesterday went like this:

Get up-7:00 (he woke up before this but not entirely sure when - he was just playing)
7:30-feed
8:30-Solids
Sleep: 9:25/30-9:55 (have no idea why he did this - appears to be OT but I could not resettle him.  But then I've never had much luck resettling DS at any point)

Awake-9:55
11:15-feed
12:15-solids
Sleep: 12:55-14:15 (this is 2 sleep cycles for DS and about as long as I ever get at a stretch during the day)

Awake-14:15
15:10-feed
16:30-solids
Catnap in buggy: 17:05-25
18:00-bath time
18:15-feed
18:35-in cot
18:40-asleep
21:45-usual 3 hourly wake up and feed!
1:00-heard him awake playing! Eventually started to call out but not miserable just annoyed. When I reassured him - straight away angry screams. Eventually quietened down. Then started up again. Eventually gave 3 minute feed and quick cuddle - back down by 1:20.
3:20-feed
6:45-he woke up

I am amazed that he could do a 3 hour A with so little sleep for his first nap!  If we weren't doing set times I would have put him down far earlier.  I am still planning on capping that first nap, partly because if I let him go longer than 40 minutes for the first nap it's rare to get a good 2nd nap (although maybe I just need to stretch the A time out even more?) and partly because he still needs a catnap in there somewhere at the moment. 

It may be that pushing that first nap to 9:30 has helped the early wake ups - but it's a bit soon to say for definite.  Even if he wakes at 6 then I'm just sticking to 9:30am. 

Becj86 - your routine looks like something we could work towards but a 4 hour A scares me!  Bet DH would give it a go though. Was 6:00 the time you got your DS up or did he wake up then and you got him up a bit later?

I'm still confused by the nights but I think it's a feed-sleep association most probably which I can do little about until I can cut night feeds.  At the moment it is confusing DS feeding him sometimes and not other times I think. Getting rid of EWUs would be wonderful though!

Thanks everyone once again.

Offline becj86

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2015, 19:50:08 pm »
Was 6:00 the time you got your DS up or did he wake up then and you got him up a bit later?
Yes, he got up at 6. It was what we had to do to catch the boat to work but also, I'm an early bird and that suits me and most importantly, it also suited his body clock. He did much better with a 6-6 routine than 7-7 which we tried valiantly at for a long time.

We've been trying set naps at 9:30 and 1 (DH thinks this is too cautious!).
DH is right - this will be perpetuating those EWs and is probably why he was up playing in the middle of the night. I'd shift that to 10 and 2:30. He really should be through the 3:2 nap transition by now, he'd be incredibly high sleep needs to still be on 3 naps at this age.

Average at 7 months would be something like 3:15-3:30 A time.

I think once you push those A times the night will fall into place much more easily if not by itself.

I'm of the opinion that more people make their child OT by not pushing A enough than by pushing that bit more.

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2015, 16:21:52 pm »
I agree with everything bec's said. It is often easier for us to adjust to an LOs WU time than try to change theirs. I spent way too long trying to get DD to wake when I wanted her to - would've been far easier to accept what her body clock wanted and go with it. If you have an early bird, the upside is that they go to bed quite early and you get lots of time in the evening!

If he's a lark, it does sound like the routine bec suggested would work of the one I quoted with a capped am nap and longer pm nap. At 7 months, I would push as hard as you can to get rid of the CN. You might need to do EBT a few days but I think you can get rid of it in a few days.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline ecwinters

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2015, 20:28:29 pm »
Thanks again both of you.

Had a good few days with capping nap number 1 at 40 minutes and then I got a longer 2nd nap.  So it looked like this:
WU:6-7
Nap 1: 9:30-10:10
Nap 2: 1:00-2:20
Then I fitted in a short catnap just after 5 for about 20/25 minutes
Bedtime: 6:45ish

The EWUs have been better this week - this morning I had to wake him at 7 am!  However, he still woke 3 times in the night.

An early 6-6 or 6:30-6:30 routine works better for us too as we both need to be up early.  However, we have been trying to shift DS towards a 7-7 routine in preparation for the clocks changing in a weeks time.  This evening he actually went to sleep at 7pm for the first time for ages - so that will be 6pm when the clocks change.

I don't think DS is HSN.  I don't think he gets enough daytime sleep as he's NEVER got the 'suggested' amount despite everything I have tried.   But that may be just the way he is.   He only has the catnap because I've never really got him to do 2 longer naps during the day so capping the first nap means I can concentrate on the 2nd nap being longer - but then the A time to bed is still too long.   If I let him do a longer 1st nap then he'll normally struggle to do a good 2nd one too.

DH says from tomorrow we will try:
WU: 6-7 (hopefully nearer 7!)
Nap 1: 9:45-10:25
Nap 2: 1:15-2:35
Short catnap
Bedtime: 7:00

If we wanted to get rid of the catnap, do you think we should let him do 1 hour in the mornings (if he'll do it - sometimes he just wakes up anyway) and then move the 2nd nap later?  We'd really like to keep to a set time for the 2nd nap though - do you think this still works if his 1st nap could (in theory) range from 30 minutes to 1 hour depending what he does? 

But I agree, we will keep pushing that first nap out as we will struggle to get rid of the catnap otherwise.  I am keen to see it go before it gets too cold and dark (I always do it in the stroller)! 

Thanks so much again!

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Nearly 6 months and NW gone crazy!
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2015, 01:58:49 am »
I don't think he gets enough daytime sleep as he's NEVER got the 'suggested' amount despite everything I have tried.   But that may be just the way he is.
It is likely the way he is. DD never got the suggested amount either and I used to try everything to get her to sleep more which just frustrated both of us. The amounts are averages so some babies will do more and some less.

I think you could do a set nap time with an am nap between 30-60 minutes. Once he gets used to the set time, 30 minutes more or less of A time shouldn't matter. If you want to ditch the CN, I would keep pushing that am CN. You could also try w2s in the second nap to see if he'll go a bit longer which would help get him through to BT.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014