Author Topic: 15mo NWs (Read 3299 times)

trimbler · « **on:** September 21, 2015, 23:24:00 pm »

Hi there,

Been meaning to start a thread for ages but kept putting it off, thinking it's 'just a cold' or something like that. But now I really just can't think any more, too sleep deprived and just want someone to tell me what to do

So anyway, DD's night sleep has been getting worse, logging it stresses me out too much so I haven't been, but right now she's going to sleep some time between 6.30-7.30 (BT never later than 7 but sometimes she takes a while), wakes for 1-2.5h at some point between 9.30pm and 1am, then has 2/3 further NWs, usually needing help resettling but sometimes not. Rarely, she'll just cry out in the late evening but there's always a few NWs later on. DS comes in at 6.30am, we have to get up then during the week anyway and he wouldn't lie in at the weekend, so DD gets up then too. Sometimes I feel she'd sleep later if she could, other times she's already been awake since 5.30am or earlier. I'm aiming for a routine something like this:

Up 6.30
Nap 9.30 for 20-25mins
Nap 1-3 (have to get up by 3 due to school run, whether at home or CM)
BT 7, want to push later but only if good nap and if the night wasn't too awful - which of course it is

If she naps any longer in the morning, she struggles to get a good pm nap at home, but the CM often lets her go longer in the morning and sometimes she still takes a decent pm nap, other times not.

She could be teething - it's about time, since she doesn't have any through yet

I can feel something, but it hasn't changed in a while and the nights are bad. She has a cold right now, which certainly doesn't help, but again, the nights were like this before the cold. I've been giving pain meds every night for ages, it seemed to help, then got worse again, then I added ibuprofen (previously just paracetamol) and again it seemed to help, then got worse again. She's also on Ranitidine for silent reflux, I think I accidentally gave her more than usual one night and she did better, so I've tried a couple of days on that dose (still well within the limits for her weight - she's very recently just gone down to twice a day from three times, but the nights were bad before that anyway). She also used to get funny stools and I suspected temporary lactose intolerance/sensitivity but they're ok now (well perhaps a bit more frequent, but she has a cold, might be teething, etc). So that's still a question mark in my mind but I haven"5 changed anything recently...

She self settles for naps and BT and sometimes in the night, when she wakes she's sometimes lost 'pink bunny' and resettles quickly once found. Sometimes I give her meds and clear her nose etc if she needs it. We'll usually put a hand on her to calm her, but if I leave it there too long she kind of shrugs it off, so she always goes back to sleep independently in the end. She eats well, isn't starving in the morning. She seems to be a good temperature. She sleeps in her cot in our room, the alternative would be to put her in with DS, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't"5 sleep through all her screaming so it wouldn't seem fair to do that to him!

Ok sorry very long and rambly, I'm in sleep deprivation fog and have just had another long NW so again couldn't get the early night I crave! Please do let me know any thoughts, it's just gone on too long now! TIA

First mum · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2015, 04:34:29 am »

Hi Trimbler, how long have you had the long nw? We had a run of these pretty much every night for almost a month. I was convinced it was teeth but nothing came of it and when the dust settled her language had jumped ahead. We ended up putting a mattress blanket and pillow on her bedroom floor and either put a hand on her bum or shushed her. It was almost as if she couldn't resettle past the 10 or 20 minute mark. On the odd occasion we did have some pretty interesting meltdowns.

Have you considered shortening that first nap right down?

trimbler · « **Reply #2 on:** September 22, 2015, 13:54:35 pm »

Thanks first mum, that's interesting! Let's hope for some development then... Tbh I think we're still at the edge of what she can handle with 20mins in the morning, after a bad night then she'll do an OT waking during the pm nap (like today) and may or may not get back off again. The CM tends to give her longer and I haven't reminded her of the routine I told her we do at home, because the nights are so bad and she's often done a decent pm nap there even after a longer am nap. Tbh I can't remember how long the nights have been bad, I just know she was EWing in June, then waking more frequently in July - not so long, but needing help to resettle and usually EWing. Think August was about the same, then for at least all of September so far she's been doing this horrible long NW, not so much EW but she gets so little sleep overall now she's so unhappy during the day

First mum · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2015, 07:35:09 am »

Oh that does sound rough! What do you do in the nw? Are you medicating? Talking? Cuddling?

I remember right in the middle of this phase all she wanted was me. She wouldn't let hubby settle her and had a few epic meltdowns in the cot until I came in. All that worked was pamol or nurofen and wrapping her inside my dressing gown and laying her on the mattress with me. She basically wanted to lie on me or feel my weight on her, only when she was out cold could I move her and usually by this stage I'd fallen asleep too so we just stayed on the mattress. This was for about a week 10 days and then I got her back in the cot with the side down and me lying over the side with my arms wrapped tight around her. Over a couple of days I reduced my contact less and less until I was able just to reach through and give her a gentle rub.

If you say she is OT with a shorter nap in the morning what about pulling her big nap earlier say 12-12:30 and using an ebt as well to help her catch up?

ginger428 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2015, 15:54:15 pm »

Hi Trimbler,
As you know we had a terrible case of long NWs a couple months ago... I did similar to what Firstmum did, more contact in the beginning then reducing it as he allowed. I'm afraid there was no real explanation other than he was probably going through some developmental leap? It didn't seem like teeth to me, but I remember the molars surfacing sometime soon after, but discomfort was more apparent in the month after... I did medicate just in case it was discomfort though.

I also remember how awful it was to know what to do when OT set in. Totally up to you, but with us, we pulled the pm nap earlier even with a short am nap. So something like:

6:00/6:30 WU
9:30-9:45 CN
12:00/12:30 Nap

I don't recall if you said you've tried this. HUGS!!!

Martini~ · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2015, 16:53:03 pm »

Hon, isn't that a time to cap morning nap? For a 15mo 20-25min is a long am nap I would say and the first NW looks to me as UT, the next probably OT.

trimbler · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2015, 22:00:20 pm »

Thanks for your words of wisdom everyone

I'vr just been medicating at night, it does seem like discomfort, if I try to use touch to help her get back off again she just wriggles or tries to shrug me away, she's usually just lying there trying to get back to sleep for a while, then yelling/screaming, then calms, usually with help, sometimes without, then screams, etc etc. She does protest when I give her the meds, I can't do it in the cot I have to take her out and her eyes are closed and she's pushing away and trying not to let me put anything in her mouth, just acts like all she wants to do is sleep but she can't

I do think I felt the rough edge of the first tooth just poking through, or just beneath the gum when I did her teething gel at BT today, so perhaps I can blame teeth after all?

I do agree that I need to keep that am nap short, hopefully I'll be able to try that at the weekend so that I can tell the CM that it works on Monday! I've already hinted that I think she needs no more than 25mins max but she keeps letting her sleep 35-40mins and then the pm nap ends up shorter and we can't stretch the last A time without her getting OT. Proper meltdown at BT tonight, seemed to be because she wanted to put her babygro on herself

Will let you know if I spot a tooth in the morning

I know that am nap is on the long side, but it's around what DS did at that age and we've actually only recently cut down to 25mins. I was about to go down to 20 when all these bad nights started and I just felt sorry for her in the morning so stuck at 25, then of course the CM gave her even longer...

Oh and I have tried to pull the pm nap forward, trouble is that she really likes her food and sometimes just keeps eating and eating her lunch and I don't want to get her down before she's ready, but then she'll start obviously working on a poo, so I let her do that before changing her and then of course it's later than intended

But yes, I'll keep that in mind and try again when she's home on Friday...

ginger428 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2015, 23:13:04 pm »

Your explanation totally reminded me of how awkward lunch was!! Yes, we had similar issues and had to do half lunch before and half lunch after for a little while. And yes, poos screwed up a lot of naps. It was very frustrating. I ended up making lunch really early at times to give him time to wo der about and poo. During this time I gave him some milk before nap to tide him over the nap. This process was so messy and frustrating. DD sounds just like M when a molar was cutting through. Not a lot would pacify him... A lot of squirming and whining.

I think you're right and might have to wait for teeth to pass... Hang in there!

First mum · « **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2015, 06:48:33 am »

Oh Trimbler reading your post reminded me my lo did the same. I think it was a good stretch of a week where she did not want to be touched or calmed or anything and just had an epic meltdown. I remember saying over and over "its ok mummys here when your ready you can have a cuddle'. I felt a bit helpless to be honest and did get angry but raising my voice didn't help I just had to ride it out. I think from memory a really firm cuddle did help.

You know your lo best but I too remember feeling sorry for her and just letting her have a bit longer in that morning nap

I think it was one of the lovely ladies on here who said I propably wasn't helping the overall problem and I needed to keep it short and ride it out. It did work........ eventually!

Bloody teeth!!! We have had a molar and incisor on the same side join our party this week

trimbler · « **Reply #9 on:** September 24, 2015, 19:04:27 pm »

Well, sure enough, that very first tooth is now peeping through

Taking its time though! I do know that I really need to help her catch up somehow, when things seemed to be working, she was doing at least 14.5h TS, now with all the NWs we're getting more like 10.5

and she's not coping well! On the one hand I keep thinking that teeth or no teeth, if she's up for 2h stretches at night then it must be UT, but on the other hand I know that she's chronically OT right now, so maybe it's just discomfort keeping her awake?? I know eventually I'll have to push her, but feel like I ought to try EBT tomorrow, wasn't possible today. But cutting the am nap short I can do, when she's home, as it's just a case of shaving off 5-10mins which isn't much really!

First mum · « **Reply #10 on:** September 25, 2015, 00:19:14 am »

Oh wow that really is a big drop in overall sleep. I'd do what you think is best. To be honest not a lot worked for us either until we got on top of the sleep debt and the phase passed. We did have a couple of crazy ebt around 5-5:15 and thankfully she tacked on! Hugs!

trimbler · « **Reply #11 on:** September 25, 2015, 13:52:35 pm »

Yeah getting on top of the sleep debt... Absolutely no idea how! APOP doesn't work any more, the only times she's slept ok are when I've had to wake her for school collection so no chance to catch up then either

Actually, maybe I exaggerated with the 10.5h TS, that's just the worst we get, it's probably usually more like 12h and very rarely, on a really good night, approaching 13h, but still way less than what she was comfortable on before. Just really hoping that her jabs on Tuesday will somehow break the cycle!

At home today, she had a big OT meltdown during the school drop off but then messed around for ages when we got home, I let her have 15mins and put her down a bit early for the pm nap, she messed around and then slept 1h

Usually it would be 1.5h on a 'bad' day. Gone quiet in the monitor now (yes hoping for resettle) so perhaps she'll get a few more minutes before I have to wake her... I have noticed before that she seems to really struggle to get off if she's not had 3h A time, however short her morning nap was. But I do think it sounds good to cut that one short and bring the pm one forward, guess that didn't work today because she was already in meltdown territory before the am nap and took ages to get off, so we couldn't get 3h A time in and have an earlier pm nap. But if only we could then perhaps she could still have a decent A to bed but an early enough BT to get a longer night in so that even if she does her 2h NW she'd get more sleep overall?? Sorry I'm just too sleep deprived and befuddled, sorry I haven't responded to anyone on my BC or the 2-1 thread, my addled brain is already full with work, DS party and stressing about DD's sleep

I'll be a better BW buddy when I can just get a bit more sleep...my sanity is slipping away... Just turned the monitor off for a few seconds to regroup - thought good, it's gone quiet but then realised I just hadn't turned it back on again

So, she's slept 1.15-2.15 and fussed the next half an hour, better get her up and go get DS, then try for EBT...6.30??? Or try 6? She's just too wired atm it doesn't seem to matter what happens she's too wired to sleep but unbearably tired when up

lauraims · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2015, 02:29:41 am »

Hey Hun !!! I'd do 6pm bt. The earlier the better !! I find that too with dd's hour long nw's the earlier bt the better. Especially if not good naps. Maybe try putting her down for first nap at 3.5 hours then for second nap at 3.15 to hopefully be asleep at the 3.5hr mark ? That's what's working for my dd at the mo, and most days getting a 1.45-2hr AN now.

trimbler · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2015, 12:14:57 pm »

You were probably right Laura, unfortunately that just wasn't possible yesterday with school collection, an unforeseen circumstance popping up and dinner etc

So we had another BT meltdown, although of course she was absolutely fine and chirpy right until then

Slept straight off at 6.30 no problem but then had an unsettled evening (hasn't done that in a while, it's usually out like a light until some time between 10-12 and then up for ages...), think she then slept ok from around 11-4.30(?) unless it was just that I slept through it, but then never really got back off again

blah! Kept her up until usual am nap time today and let her have 20mins (I know, I know, but she'd been awake practically 5h before that (although 2 of those in her cot) and then had another 3h afterwards before the pm nap - she surely must have been tired enough for it, right?! Well, we'll find out... Hopefully she'll at least give me time to bake DS's birthday cake

trimbler · « **Reply #14 on:** September 26, 2015, 13:57:16 pm »

Oh this is horrendous! Another OT pm nap, 1h20-1h40, not quite sure as I heard stirrings before the big scream. I know it doesn't sound bad in itself but when she's not so OT it's usually 2h, she's clearly upset

I just need her to do a long catch-up but can't seem to even get a normal sleep, let alone a long one. Of course during the week when I have school collection I have to wake her from the pm nap (which may be broken or start late due to faffing around) but when she would have the chance to sleep longer at the weekend she does horrible naps. Wondering whether to try. 6pm BT tonight?? But really don't want another 4.30am WU, especially with the time change coming up...with that, I'd kind of prefer the 2h NWs with a normal WU

Maybe I should push BT regardless so she just conks out??? But she's so OT... Anyone found that the jabs have been successful in breaking these mega OT cycles? I think it's my only hope now

Or should I just stick rigidly to set times and hope that she eventually gets the idea

I don't have much flexibility anyway!

kayra · « **Reply #15 on:** September 26, 2015, 19:04:59 pm »

Hugs Trimble that all sounds super rough

Can you try 4hr A before a 20min nap and then 2-2.5hrs A till pm nap? I'm just wondering if the first A time is too short and then the 2nd A time on a catnap is too long....?
I always fear sebt so I would say have an earliest bt in mind (for me that's 7) and set it at that, if I remember she so far hasn't been one to tack on lost sleep-I might be wrong though. With the lunch problem could you give her a big snack straight after her am catnap so she has plenty of time to eat and poo before her pm nap? And -I know this might be opposite to some advice but I'm chicken about ot-if she was up from like 4/5:30 I would probably let her have a good half hour in the am and push out the pm nap if necessary. It just let her catch up a bit, but like I said I'm one to always fear ot rather than ut...
Hugs!!!

Emami · « **Reply #16 on:** September 26, 2015, 19:54:22 pm »

Hi hun, my DD2 is a bit younger (10 months) but I have similar issues with her. She has been very prone to long NWs and I also have the school run to contend with, which is a pain for naps. A couple of people suggested set naps but I was hesitant to try it because I always wanted to try to tweak and fix things and felt like if I played around or let her catch up where she could then things would kind of reset and get better. She never cooperated though, lol.

In the end since school started we've kind of fallen into set naps that work with both school runs. She's usually doing WU 6am, nap (in car on way home from school) 9-9:30, nap 12-2, BT 6:30. It's not perfect and sometimes her lunchtime nap isn't long enough (anywhere from 1h20-2.5hrs), but I've stuck to the same BT as earlier bed gets me earlier WU. I like the half hour car nap because she only ever sleeps 30mins so I don't have to wake her. A couple of times on the weekends I've gone for a longer morning nap since we're not in the car, but then I don't seem to get her A times right and her day gets messy. So set naps do seem to be working.

I hate to even type this and jinx myself, but the long NWs have improved too. At the moment she is either sleeping through or her NWs are relatively short (still maybe half an hour but much better than 2hrs+). I'm not sure if it's routine that's helped, or being more consistent at night. Before we were sometimes feeding, sometimes medicating, sometimes picking up, sometimes on her floor, lots of jiggling the bed, just trying anything which was probably confusing. So we started holding back more (she is loud and there's nothing else to listen to in the middle of the night so we were probably rushing in). If she was really upset one of us would go in and do WI/WO from there.

I definitely don't have all the answers, and she is still not the best sleeper but it's settled down a lot so hopefully something in there will help. Hugs for the nights, I know how tough it is.

First mum · « **Reply #17 on:** September 29, 2015, 06:19:58 am »

I'd stick to the set naps for a whole week. If your not happy or there is no improvement I'd tweak again. Even if you keep ebt of 6pm for the whole week as well and then start pushing back to 6:30.

Big hugs x

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #18 on:** September 29, 2015, 06:51:11 am »

Trimbler:) Hi! I haven't read anything anyone else has posted, only the first original post but just wanted to write that with Eris, after a 2 hour nap ending at 3, I would have trouble with BT any earlier than 8. I hope I have not just confused the issue! Just wanted to share that with you:)

trimbler · « **Reply #19 on:** September 30, 2015, 20:18:02 pm »

Hey everyone thanks for all your input

Emma - I think we've also been inconsistent at night, DH prefers to do more and will always sing to her etc before putting her back down, whilst I prefer to do as little as possible

Kayra I know what you mean, I guess the 3h 1st A time just works quite nicely around the school run and means we can have a longer stretch in the morning to actually do stuff... So I'd like to make it work if possible!

First mum/Fleur - I think she really needed that 6pm EBT to catch up without having an OT EW, but that was a one-off, things have actually started to get better since then

Sunday was very busy and BT ended up a little later than intended, but still a better night. Monday at the CM, she had 30mins in the morning and then babbled for half an hour before getting to sleep in the afternoon, the CM commented ( written in our book) that she didn't know why she did that, so I replied in writing that I thought she needed a shorter am nap, we did 20mins at home yesterday which seemed to work well and she had an almost straight through 2h nap in the afternoon (with a 45min OT scream, quickly resettled - she'd woken at 5am that morning screaming and hadn't resettled), I had to wake her for the school run. She also had her second MMR yesterday which perhaps made her sleepier than usual, but amazingly, we had our first sttn in months

Woke at 6.15 or thereabouts, so over 11h

Then today the CM finally followed our suggestion (well, gave her 25mins in the cot, not sure how long she actually slept) and she did 1h 50 in the afternoon

Not holding my breath but maybe, just maybe, our horrible cycle is broken, not that things will be perfect but perhaps more manageable?

Thanks for your support

First mum · « **Reply #20 on:** October 07, 2015, 00:50:30 am »

Hows things going Trimber?

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #21 on:** October 07, 2015, 15:00:01 pm »

Nice to read your update. With E too, I found that the CN needed to be cut quite a bit after a while. But then she is on the lower end of sleep needs.

trimbler · « **Reply #22 on:** October 07, 2015, 22:12:52 pm »

Thanks for asking

Well I don't know, it did seem like on the one hand she needed that am nap down to 20mins to get a decent pm nap, and on the other hand she's probably more sensitive to OT than I'd realised, as the EBTs really did seem to help and her night sleep has been generally better the last 1-2 weeks, especially some of the last few nights. However tonight she's back to her high-pitched, blood-curdling screamathon

I'm wondering how much I can really put down to teeth?? I mean, things started to improve after she'd cut the first tooth, the second perhaps wasn't so bad when it actually cut, but of course it would have been moving up before then, right? Now I think she's at it again - gums a bit swollen maybe(?), lots of poos and nappy rash, she's really not keen on us putting our fingers in her mouth for teething gel and her appetite's decreased significantly. But I hear of these LOs who have three bad nights and then out pops a tooth - could she really have three terrible *weeks* (well, longer, really) preceding each tooth?

Well whatever it is, I'm back in the living room as DH will at least make the most efficient use of any quiet moment for sleeping - whereas I'd be lying awake for hours after she's finally got back off

First mum · « **Reply #23 on:** October 07, 2015, 22:57:29 pm »

I belong to a self appointed club called "I hate teeth"!! And yes the discomfort and sleep disruption can go on for weeks

my LO has cross cut and likes to do multiple teeth at once. Just checked my notebook and we have had at least 1 nw most nights since the 20/9/15 and have had 4 teeth cut (2 incisors and 2 molars) and now I can see another incisor ready and can feel the last 2 molars. In saying that, I could see the previous 2 incisors for just over 7 days before they actually broke through. I am really mindful of timing her pain medication to help her get the best sleep. Think I might be onto something as she woke at midnight last night and she couldn't resettle so I picked her up, drink of water, pamol and teething gel. I cuddled for about another 5 minutes and then popped her back down and she went back to sleep

huge improvement on the usual hour.

Food intake is really poor at the moment too. My LO loves frozen grapes, raspberries, strawberries and peas which is hugely helpful. I also wizzed up frozen strawberries and a banana yesterday afternoon and she was smacking her lips and say yum yum, more mum!! Which I haven't heard for awhile.

Hope you managed some sleep last night! I'm the same with getting back to sleep it takes me forever!!

kayra · « **Reply #24 on:** October 08, 2015, 11:46:42 am »

It could well be teeth trimbler, the other symptoms seem to match up..good idea to sleep in the living room, I'm the same way about getting back to sleep!

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #25 on:** October 12, 2015, 09:20:20 am »

We're in the same boat with teeth but no madness, thankfully. Do you medicate at BT?

trimbler · « **Reply #26 on:** October 12, 2015, 19:44:45 pm »

Hey Fleur, do you still have just the two? But E's are at the top, aren't they, whereas A has the bottom two. Yes we medicate...bit worried she gets too much pain relief, I mean we never exceed the 24h limits but she's had something every day for...

Well I'm sleeping in the living room again now as I have this annoying cough and don't want to wake anyone else with it! As for DD's sleep, well it's not perfect but it's way better than where it was for so long, so I'm putting everything down to teeth or unavoidable later-than-ideal BT - but at least I think I know what the ideal is now, whereas I really had no idea before. Thanks

newkidontheblock · « **Reply #27 on:** October 14, 2015, 15:45:20 pm »

I think the bottom ones are way harder than the top. We have 3 now and 1 more on the side poking through. The bottom one took AGES to get out and was quite painful

trimbler · « **Reply #28 on:** October 14, 2015, 19:39:33 pm »

I suspect they all do it in their own way... I'm sure the top was harder for DS, but he had three coming pretty much at the same time, iirc.

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Author Topic: 15mo NWs (Read 3299 times)