Author Topic: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW  (Read 20864 times)

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Offline JennVanessa1083

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Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« on: September 23, 2015, 10:14:28 am »
Hello,

I have written about the issues with bedtime and evening night waking a before. I have gotten good advice on another board to treat waking as if they are middle of the night ones. It started working.  However, now these issues are worsening and I'm desperate for help.

Background: LO is about to be 16 weeks. Bedtime has been on the decline where he won't settle for the night. After bedtime (which I have a consistent routine in place), he would wake up every 45-1 wanting to eat before finally knocking out around 10. It was not ideal but I would feed him and he would go back to sleep. I would take it as tanking up before his big sleep.  This happens with early 7 am wake ups as well. However, once he finally fell asleep, he would sleep 9-11 hours straight through; no NW. In the last couple of days, he is not only resisting bedtime, but wakes up 20-45 (45 if I'm lucky) minutes later then stays up for almost 2 hours despite our efforts to get him to go to sleep. He's hyper and playful at first then spirals down to a meltdown. I have resorted to APOP Bc he's so tired and distressed it's the only way. By this time he's crying and I'm crying Bc it's so overwhelming! Then he proceeds to wake at different times throughout night; hungry. It's never at the same time  and I always give him about 10 minutes to try to resettle before feeding; so I believe it's hunger. I try to bulk up his calories during the day and it used to work but not sure why it doesn't now...sleep regression or growth spurt?

Napping is pretty good; he self settles and can sleep 1.5; I help him transition at times but it's nothing crazy at all. His current A is 1.75; this was just increased in the last week. His morning nap is golden but he wakes up after his first cycle in the afternoon naps. Like I said resettling him isn't bad. Yesterday it took a bit more but I'm chalking it up to not enough wind down time since we just got home from a music class.

I just am at the end of my rope; I barely eat or shower in the evening Bc I'm busy trying to get him to sleep. At this point I dread bedtime Bc I know what's coming. I'm frustrated with myself Bc I can't figure this out and I feel terrible that it gets to the point that it does. I really need help in figuring this out. Is it OT or UT or both? How do I help him? Maybe my A needs pushing or maybe I need different As in the afternoon and evening?
I can post my EASY if that helps-I just need help Bc I know he's not getting what he needs and it's really getting to me. Thank you!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 12:49:16 pm by JennVanessa1083 »
Jennifer xx

Offline 4isstillnighttime

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2015, 14:01:51 pm »
Hello!

I know nothing about EASY really....but I recognise these feelings of being at the end of your tether and feeling like if you could just tweak the nap by 5 minutes one way or something it would all sort itself out. I think it's important to remember that, from the sounds of it, you are doing an absolutely fantastic job, and that one (blissful!) day in the future naps will be a thing of the past and your baby will sleep through the night. Definitely.

I'm sure some knowledgable person will have some suggestions, but my advice would be: 1. Don't stress it - babies do what they do. You can help them along the way but they are all different and do things at their own pace. 2. Sounds like you have a bright, alert little thing - you must be very proud of him and 3. Do you have someone to help in the evening whilst you have some food and a shower? This is v important! 4. Don't worry about him getting what he needs. I worried all the time about chronic sleep deprivation and it doesn't seem to have had any impact long term.

Finally, I remember 16 weeks as being particularly awful, and it did get better.  Have some virtual chocolate from me and hang in there!

Xxx

Offline JennVanessa1083

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2015, 15:34:37 pm »
Hi!!

Thank you so much for your encouragement and suggestions. He is one alert little boy and I LOVE him for it! It's only an issue at bedtime lol he's even good with naps surprisingly.

I have my hubby and he helps when he can but he comes home late from work due to the commute and usually DS wants his mama putting him to bed. However, last night I gave him to my hubby while I ate and showered which definitely refueled me!

You are right he does what he does. I guess as a FTM everything is magnified! I just want to make sure I'm doing my best to ensure growth and more importantly rest. But I guess that's what all moms want  ;D

It is such a tricky age with all the growth spurts, developmental leaps, and possible sleep regression. I'm hoping I'm not entering the sleep regression stage!

Thank you again!
Hugs,
Jennifer
Jennifer xx

Offline Emami

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 18:49:29 pm »
Sorry your evenings are stressful atm.  He's at a rough age for sleep as there's a lot going on.  Yes, the 4 month regression could definitely be a factor, growth spurt is likely if he's always hungry, and there is a wonder week that starts around 15 weeks and peaks at 17 weeks.  Some babies are more affected by these things than others (my second is one whose sleep is thrown off by every little thing so I understand your frustration). 

I think pp gave you some good advice, especially not to worry about your LOs needs being met. Your are giving him the opportunity to sleep and helping him as much as you can, but you can't force him to sleep. He'll figure it out and your evenings won't always be this way even though it might feel like it.  I do understand the worry about him not getting enough sleep when you know he needs it, but he will be ok, and you need to not stress and feel guilty when things don't go quite right.  There's so much changing and growing going on in the first year, please don't drive yourself crazy thinking it's you doing something wrong.  These little people like to mix things up and confuse us!

The only thing I can think routine-wise is how does the end of the day look?  You mentioned the am nap is good and the pm map is decent with a resettle, but what happens after that?  At this age I'm guessing there's still a CN? How does that last nap and A to bed look?
Emma






Offline Shiv52

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2015, 18:53:20 pm »
Hugs xx

I'd say at 16 weeks you could do with pushing your A time to 2 hours.  Sounds like your little guy is UT and treating bedtime as a CN and then doing his A time again before settling to bed.   If you want to post your basic EAS I can take a look.

I found 4/5 months the worst with my DD1 but after that things definitely settled and things were a lot better.

What helped me was just letting DH do bedtime every other night. I took a bath, ate, watched TV and just was off duty. I fed her then DH took over. It took me a few weeks to settle in to it and not feel like I had to be doing it but it was good for DH and my DD to work out their own way of doing things.

How does your LO settle to sleep?  Have they a dummy?






Offline JennVanessa1083

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2015, 19:48:06 pm »
Hi ladies!

Thank you so much for responding! Well I guess I spoke too soon about the naps. Today he has cried mid cycle with both so far. I managed to resettle with APOP and as we speak he is finishing up in my arms as I type. Well first nap he woke up at 50 minutes then I resettled; this nap he woke up at 38 minutes wanting to nurse; now he's asleep.

I agree it's such a tough age with sleep as I am seeing. I'm a FTM so this is all new to me. I guess as you said Emami, I can't force him I can only create opportunities. My fear is a chronically OT baby especially when he's developing so much! I do like the idea Shiv of having DH help while I take breaks. I think DS is so used to me that he cries more with DH so I run in to the rescue. Maybe I should relax on that.

I actually thought about the possibility of extending A time to 2 hours. I agree with you Shiv that perhaps he's UT throughout the day. He will be 16 weeks tomorrow so maybe he needs more A. I thought Bc he would settle easily for naps it was good at 1.75 but after today I'm thinking maybe not.

Here is a rough EASY from yesterday and today. CN hasn't happened as he has been getting up at 9:30! Which is another issue I suppose so I do three full naps. Maybe that's part of the problem?

He's a paci snob so he doesn't use them no matter how's my times I've tried. He wears a zippy so usually when he's super drowsy he will start fussing and I put him down and he rolls on his tummy sucking on his hand and falls asleep. At night it's usually nursing until very drowsy put him down and same thing as nap time.

NW: 4:27, 6:30

WU: 9:38
E: 9:46
A
E: 10:44
A
E: 11:18
S: 11:22- 12:48 (A 1:43; I burped him after the last feed so he doesn't fall asleep at the breast)
E 12:54
A
E: 2:34
S: 2:41- 4:23 ( A 1:53; after music class, changed him and fed him. Went a couple of minutes over. Woke up at 30 min mark happy; finished feed went back to sleep)
E: 4:43
A
E5:45
A
S 6:05-7:15 (woke up at a certain point to nurse then knocked out for ten more minutes)
E: 7:26
A Bath and bedtime routine
E: 8:58pm (last feed)
S: 9:09 pm (A 1:54)

Woke up 9:30 to eat and didn't go back to sleep until  11 pm

NW: 3:20, 5:44

WU: 9:31 am
E: 9:47 am
A
E: 10:52
A
S: 11:19 (A 1:48; took a bit more to settle); woke up at 50 minutes finished nap in my arms
E: 1:34
A
E 2:14
A
S: 2:48- (A 1:50; fought nap wouldn't settle crying; rocked him)
Jennifer xx

Offline JennVanessa1083

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2015, 19:50:22 pm »
Sorry! I meant to ask...how do I go about extending A? What I did the last time to get it to 1.75 is just do it cold turkey. Not sure if that's the best approach for my situation. Also I want him to go back to 8 am wake up so should I just start waking him up tomorrow at 8 even if he goes to sleep at 11?

Thanks so much ladies! I really appreciate this!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 20:01:22 pm by JennVanessa1083 »
Jennifer xx

Offline Emami

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2015, 20:40:23 pm »
Ok, looking at your day I do think he's UT.  He's getting about 4hrs sleep in a not-quite 12hr day.  If you want to try a 2hr A time I think cold turkey would be fine, it's only an increase of 15mins so quite gentle. But to start the day earlier I probably wouldn't just jump straight to an 8am WU as he'd be losing 1.5hrs of night sleep. It's up to you what you feel he could handle and how fast you want to try to shift it, but I would maybe wake him at 9 for a couple of days, then 8:30, then 8.  Or you might not have to if the longer A times sort out the NWs and he STTN, he would likely wake a bit earlier than he is at the moment after some solid sleep.
Emma






Offline JennVanessa1083

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2015, 20:54:48 pm »
Yes Emami I think those are great suggestions. That was my concern with waking him up at 8 when he's been waking up at 9:30. I can try the every couple of days thing. So my next question would be do I start 2 hours asap? He just woke from nap 2 so do I push for 2 hrs A now or start fresh tomorrow. Also I'm assuming no CN anymore, since it would make BT too late?
Jennifer xx

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2015, 02:08:41 am »
I just want to start by offering (((hugs))). 16 weeks was a really tough age with my DD (lots of BTs exactly as you describe) and I remember how frustrated and anxious I felt. I was also fearful of chronic OT but if you can, try to put that out of your head. Worrying does nothing but drive you round the bend. I spent so much time with DD worrying about when to put her down, obsessing about what I did wrong, and timing and logging every nap that I did lose out on just enjoying her. Before I had DS, I asked for advice here and I received wonderful support and practical tips on this thread: Tips for handling sleep anxiety. I hope it can help you too. :-*

I agree that gradually changing the wake-up is a good idea. Depending on nap length, you will likely still need a CN. The beauty of a CN is that it can be longer or shorter depending on what you need to get through to BT on any given day.

Does your LO give many sleep cues?

Having your DH help at BT will do wonders for you but it does take a bit to relax and leave him to it, especially if it doesn't appear to be going well. Jump in the shower or turn up the tv and just ignore what's going on. Also, if you are getting really stressed, just APOP if it helps. My DD did tons of naps in the swing (and nights at that age because it was just easier) and it was very easy to transition her to the crib.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline lily_layne

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2015, 02:12:21 am »
I just wanted to add that both DD and DS had an increase in NWs at 4/5 months. They went away on their own.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

Offline JennVanessa1083

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2015, 04:42:14 am »
Thank you so much for the link and the encouragement! I will for sure be reading it asap. Tonight was bad. He has been waking up every 50 minutes...still is, I just fed him. He gives some cues like rubbing eyes, yawning, decreased activity but that is usually early on in A.

I actually have been cosleeping but am worried that the longer I do it the harder it will be to transition. We had him in the crib since 8 weeks or so and he was doing great. Now it feels like everything has been undone. Tried tonight but it was the same thing; he woke up at the 50 mark. I'm hoping its Ut bc usually he is able to self settle but tonight is a different story.

Jennifer xx

Offline Shiv52

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2015, 06:29:42 am »
I think as the ladies said there are a few issues.

You need to alter your wake up time and get your A time up to 2 hours. But I am also wondering about his E times. They are short and I wonder is he snacking as opposed to taking full feeds?  You also mention he is taking a feed mid nap to get back to sleep at some times?  I'm wondering are you creating a prop using feeding?  Also I would make sure if you are doing a top up feed it is at least 15/20 minutes before you stop your nap winddown.

I absolutely wouldn't rescue DS and DH. He will cry more with him until they find their groove but it's important DH can do bedtime too YK?  You need a break too and it's good for DS to be able to settle for DH.





Offline JennVanessa1083

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2015, 09:08:28 am »
Hi Shiv!

Yes I thought about whether I'm encouraging snacking. When he wakes up, it's usually 3-5 hours later and he would only empty one breast. I always offer the second but he never takes it, which is why I end up feeding him again around an hour later. I try my best to have A time after the second feed so he doesn't have an association with feeding and sleep. Not sure if this is still happening. I could be creating a sleep prop with the nursing between naps at times. Should I just stop cold turkey? I definitely don't want to create a problem for down the road. I chalked it up to him going through a growth spurt since he is officially 16 weeks and is going through a wonder week.

I have contracted my DH to helps since last night. I will definitely be more diligent to encourage him to help with bedtime bc it's true I do need a breather. Being a SAHM is exhausting and I need to refuel especially since I'm tending to all the nw since DH teaches.

I have been up practically every hour this entire night. Could it be I have hit the sleep regression stage? He is showing signs of it according to what I have read. I'm really hoping stretching out the A will help bc this is exhausting. I just spent the past half hour watching my son flip flop back and forth in his sleep. I checked my timer and it's only been 90 minutes or so into his sleep. Thankfully he does know how self-soothe for the most part as he just fell into a deep sleep again.

Ladies I'll admit I'm terrified of the sleep regression. I have heard horror stories and I am really hoping this is not going to be that or if it is that, then it won't be as horrible.

Thanks again for the advice!
Jennifer xx

Offline Emami

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Re: Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 12:23:29 pm »
I just spent the past half hour watching my son flip flop back and forth in his sleep. I checked my timer and it's only been 90 minutes or so into his sleep. Thankfully he does know how self-soothe for the most part as he just fell into a deep sleep again.
But he was asleep, yes? Hun, I think if you are feeling anxious about his sleep you should ditch the video. You don't need to know his every little move. He will let you know if he needs you! Could you just use sound on the monitor but don't sit and watch him? Get some of your evening back! It sounds like you just sat and watched him and worried that he would wake up. I hope this doesn't sound flippant, I know he genuinely does wake and your evenings have been tough, but you don't need to make it harder for yourself. If you can't hear him he's ok  :-*
Emma