Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Emami!

Sorry for the confusion, this wasn't the evening. The evening went the same, he slept for 50 minutes, then 36, then stayed up for an hour or so until falling asleep at around 11. Then woke up at 12:30 etc.

Him flip flopping happened in the middle of the night on multiple occasions. My guess is he trying to practice rolling bc he would not stay put and sounded frustrated.  We are currently sharing a room (1bedroom apartment in NYC). He was awake ever hour or 2 all night long. I'm hoping with the stretch of A time, we will both sleep better.

[JennVanessa1083]

Sorry I meant to ask this before...how do I stretch out feedings when he starts the day only drinking one breast?

Today he woke up at 8 am, ate and went back to sleep so I'm attempting to stretch it out now. How far should I be stretching out and to go about it?

[Shiv52]

It could be he only needs one breast now?  I know at 4 months both mine became much much more efficient feeders and I did single side feeding and where they previously took 30/40 minutes to feed they were able to take a full feed in 10 minutes, 15 minutes top. It was so strange.   When you are offering the other breast before the nap is he emptying that too? 

How often do you feel he is needing to feed at the minute? I know Tracey says 4 hours but a lot of  BF babies don't make it 4 hours. I know both of mine only did about 3.5.

How were your naps and A times today?  I also meant to ask what your ideal bedtime is?

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi!

Yes usually he empties the other breast. I tried to feed him 45-1hr after the first feed. He is also a very efficient feeder. He can have a full feed in 10 minutes. I think the longest he can do is 3 hrs. I stretched it out today to 3 hrs which he fed from both breasts and still wanted a top up an hour later...I guess he's just a hungry baby? Lol

The A time worked wonderfully for the first nap. He transitioned into the next sleep cycle without any help. He slept for 1.5 hr. I will be putting him down again after 2hrs A. I do wonder bc my day started so late (he would not wake up until 10:15 despite my efforts)
should I just do a CN as the third nap?

Ideally I would want BT at 8. Not sure what a 4 hr EASY would look like with an 8-8 day. Could you give me an example?

[JennVanessa1083]

Update: 2nd nap he woke up at 35 minutes wanting to eat. I'm in the process of resettling. Maybe OT due to A time change?

[lily_layne]

If you can, try not to worry about what caused the 35 minute wake for the second nap and focus instead on the successful first nap. It can take a few days for LOs to adjust to new A times so I would just stay the course for a few more days even though it's tempting to try to "fix" it right away.

An 8-8 day might look something like this:
WU and E: 8
S: 10-11:30
E: 12ish
S: 1:30-3
E: 3/3:30
S: 5-5:30/5:45
E: 6
BT: 8

Sometimes feeding gets a bit messy around this time as the A times stretch. Some LOs can easily go 4 hours and some can't. My DS often only took one breast in the am so I would offer the other side about an hour later. If that didn't work, I offered during his WD. I did leave the light on but sometimes he did fall asleep while nursing - it didn't become a prop for him. I always offered a feed as part of his BT WD.

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Lilly!

Thank you for your response. Yes you make a good point where I had to reread that sentence about focussing on the good morning nap and not the wake up during the second nap. Funny how we can sometimes zero in on what's wrong rather than appreciating what went great.

Also thank you for the sample EASY. That helps a lot. So I'm a little confused around A after CN and before BT. Tonight my LO ended up Doing a CN rather than a third nap. I had planned a half hour but he woke up at 26 minutes. I chalked it up to him adjusting to the new A time. Anyways, I ended up giving him a bath and doing his BT routine. I was under the impression that after a CN you cut down the A by a half hour. However, he was NOT trying to go down at 1.5 A. He didn't settle either, he kept tossing and tossing them started crying. I ended up rocking him to sleep. I think part of it is that I moved up the nursing in the BT routine to avoid creating a prop since I think it might have started happening. So I think the crying was a protest for the boob lol especially since he kept doing hunger cues. Anyways, he finally fell asleep at about 2 hrs A.

So my question: is it possibly that he needs a shorter A after CN or is it that he is one of those babies that still need the long A after a CN? Or did I push it too long and he was OT? I can always post my EASY for today if that helps.

In regards to he feeding I do the same thing but I try not to do it right before sleep bc I think he's staring to associate the one with the other.

Thank you again for your support!

[JennVanessa1083]

I wanted to add that after falling asleep after an A of 2 hrs, he woke up at: 10:45, 11;20, 12:30, and finally did a 4 hour stretch from 12:30-4:30 am.

Maybe it was OT or OS? Can't be UT could it? Needless to say he did not stay asleep.

[Shiv52]

How did you resettle him when he woke? Did you leave him until he needed u? Or get up to him immediately?

[JennVanessa1083]

I would leave him for 10 minutes to see if he went back to sleep. When he wouldn't, I would intervene.

I want to add an observation: all his nw are erratic, except for the past two days he wakes up at 10 to 7. I'm wondering if this is a new WU time emerging. However, bc he goes to bed late and has had several nw he goes straight back to sleep after feeding. Is that possible?

[Shiv52]

So are you feeding each time he wakes at night?

[JennVanessa1083]

Not every time only if he shows hunger cues. Sometimes he wakes up because he can't roll back over or because he seems to be practicing rolling over or something because he will move and move as though he's trying to go somewhere.

He slept longer stretches later in the night (after midnight) but before then he was waking up every 1/2 hour. He would root so I fed him but would still put him down drowsy. Do you think he's using nursing as a sleep prop?

This how yesterday went (maybe the routine was off)

WU: 10:16 am
A: (since ate at 8 am)
E: 10:49
A
S: 12:18- 1:53 (A 2hrs 2 min); self settled
E: 2:01 (both breasts)
A
E: 2:54 (one breast)
A
S: 3:55- 5:44(A 2:02); self settled; woke up at 37 minute mark crying wanting to eat. Finished nap in my arms
E: 5:51 pm
A
E 7:32
S 7:40-8:11 pm (A 1:56 woke up to finish feed)
E 8:12
A
E: 9:09
S 10:06-10:44 pm (A 1:55); wouldn't settle, cried, rocked him
E: 10:57 pm
S 11:10-11:20 pm
Resettled at 11:48

NW: 12:28 am, 4:35 am

[Shiv52]

I would say at this age yes he's rooting out of habit not hunger. If you've fed and he wakes within 3 hours I would resettle and not feed.  Same for naps. I think he's using feeding to get drowsy and when he wakes at other times he struggling to sleep without that.

So for example you fed at 2.01 then 2.54 and he had 2 then 1 breasts. Then you say he slept at 3.55 and after 37 mins woke to feed?  That's only 2.5 hours since the 2pm feed and 1.5 hours since the 3pm feed. I definitely would be resettling and not feeding as there is no way he should be hungry.  think you may have a snacking issue going on and I would think you need to get those feeds stretched out. I wouldnt expect a BF to go 4 hours but I would expect him to be doing at least 3 if not 3.5.  Some babies show hunger signs and often tired signs when they need a change of scenery so rather than feed I would try a change of scenery or activity and feed later on. Obviously you need to stretch the feeds out so I would start with at least 2 hours between feeds and then you need to stretch further.

As yesterday he fed with these intervals:

2h49
3h10
53 mins
1h39
1 hr17
1h41
40 mins
57 mins
1h48

So you started out ok but as the day goes on he's feeding too frequently and that will affect him settling sigh needing to feed and in making sure he's taking full feeds.

Make sense?

[JennVanessa1083]

Definitely makes sense. I guess I was trying to follow hunger cues and blamed it on a growth spurt. Do you think I should stop doing top up feeds?

I think back and I would stop feeding when he gagged at the breast but maybe that didn't mean he was full so that may have encouraged snacking.

[lily_layne]

I won't give any advice on feeding - I think shiv's got you covered with good advice there!

So my question: is it possibly that he needs a shorter A after CN or is it that he is one of those babies that still need the long A after a CN? Or did I push it too long and he was OT?

This is a tricky one - every LO is different so it's really a matter of watching cues. DS has a large window of opportunity for sleep and easier cues to read so it was easier to figure out his A times. DD had a smaller windows and less obvious cues so it was harder to pin down and I was missing the BT boat for quite a while - it sounds like your LO may be the same. If he gives yawns as cues, I would aim to start the WD after the first or second yawn.

DS had a lot of NWs crop up around this age at similar times to what you describe. They stuck around for a month and then went away. He took a paci so I used that to resettle the earlier NWs. I do remember reading somewhere that it's normal for an 11/12ish NW to start at this age. I know you're trying to avoid creating a nurse-to-sleep prop but it's likely ok if he nurses to sleep at NWs. Night sleep is controlled by a different part of the brain than naps so it shouldn't affect your day.

I think getting an earlier start on your day will help. LOs body clocks tend to do best when they wake for the day between 6 and 7:30 (you can likely make 8 work if that works for your family). I know it's tough to wake him when he's gone to bed so late because you want him to sleep but I think in the long run it would help. You could do it gradually as emami suggested earlier or in one go (I would be tempted to just bite the bullet and be done with it). If he wakes at 7am and feeds and goes back to sleep, I would wake him for the day at 7:45/8.