Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW

[lily_layne]

I got the routine from another poster on here who got it from a book. It worked well for a few mamas on here.
For 5-6 month olds:
WU: 630/7
S: 9-1030
S: 1-230
BT: 630/7

For 6-9 month olds:
WU: 630/7
S: 930-11
S: 130-3
BT: 630/7

I began when it was pretty clear that the CN was ready to go (he was fighting it a lot). I am not good at waking babies (and DS often slept past 7 at that stage) so I started by making sure that am nap was shorter and ended at 11 (if he woke at 8, we went for a walk at 10 so we woke on his own around 11 - always has short naps in the stroller). Once he started waking on his own around 7 he got so used to the 930 nap, he'd go down easily then even if he slept in. I didn't wake him from the pm nap. If it ended at 3 or later, I did BT 3 hours from when he woke (it was a leap in A time for the first bit and the last hour was tough but we managed) and if it ended before 3, we did a short CN.

[JennVanessa1083]

Good morning!

The schedule looks good. Did you just jump right in? How did your DS take to it? How did you handle OT until he adjusted?

My obvious concern is accumulated OT and more NW disasters but I also know that he is ready to phase out the CN as he fought so much last night against it. So much work for him to sleep around 20 minutes! Then the A to BT was not quite right since he woke soon (40 minutes) after BT crying.

I'm letting DS sleep in a bit. We had a crazy night. NW every 2-3 hours where He was taking full feeds all night! Not to mention the EW from 5:45-7 am where he was rolling over and over and over again 

He eventually put himself back to sleep. I just tried to gently wake him up (even turned him over on his back which he hates) but he is out cold lol

I'll have to adjust the routine for today since usually we start between 7-7:30 (sometimes he wakes up earlier than 7:30 WU call)

Not sure if I count him going back to sleep around 7 as a nap since he was wake for pretty much an hour?

Update: He woke up at 9! I tried 3 different times to wake him up and nothing. So I don't want a BT of 9:30-10. With the new A times how do I get an earlier BT and fit all feeds? Or should I just roll with the later BT and just wake him up tomorrow at 7:30. I don't want to restart a pattern of late am wake ups. We have come so far!

[Shiv52]

I'd maybe wing it for today.  and aim for bed realistically 8pm?  I don't think so far he has done well with too short a day.  I think lovely if you are going to try and be consistent you are going to have wake him.  Just give him a wriggle and lift him and get him awake.   I don't think gently will do it if he's been awake a lot.   But its a catch 22 as short day leads to UT and then leads to OT and you're stuck in a vicious cycle yk?

[JennVanessa1083]

lol i'm a mush! You are right I have to just do what it takes to wake him...

Yea it would seem from the past he is not too keen on a short day. I can shoot for 8-8:30 since he got up at 9. I guess it comes down to how well he naps today also. I am thinking capping them (although he hasn't done over 1.5 in days) so it gives me a better chance of him being tired by 8ish.

I do appreciate you both helping me so much...very very grateful!!

[Shiv52]

Welcome xx

In BW solves all your problems Tracey is pretty emphatic about being consistent when establishing routines for the initial 4/5 days and then more toward cue watching and I think that is essentially what you are looking to do.  But in your case what you need to be consistent with is the wake up and those first 2 A times.

I hated waking mine too!

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes! I must get that book! I have the first one but haven't purchased the next one.

I am pushing A for 2:40 today. He was GRIZZLY going down for the first nap, crying and everything. I jiggled the mattress in the cot a bit to get him settled since picking him up only made him cry harder when i put him back down. He woke up crying at he 34th minute mark. Tried shh pat and it escalated so I APOPed the remainder of the nap.

We will see how the rest of the day goes!

[Shiv52]

Hope it goes well!!

[JennVanessa1083]

Well after 20 minutes of shh pat he is down! Hoping that it's for a couple of hours! He actually went down at almost 2:50 A. Is it possible to push the A to 2:45 tomorrow? I did 2:40 yesterday and today and it seems it may not be enough. Or should I give it one more day before bumping up A?

[lily_layne]

Sorry, I have no advice on A times as it was at this point that I jumped to set naps. I do agree with Shiv that you'll need to be consistent about waking him (I hate it too, I know it's tough). I would turn on a lamp and pick him up if he's really out.

Did you just jump right in? How did your DS take to it? How did you handle OT until he adjusted?

I did just jump right in as he was ready for an A time push when we started. He did quite well but he tends to deal with OT pretty well. He did have some 30/40 minute wake ups at first but was fairly easy to resettle. Nights got much better once we ditched the CN and went with a long last A.

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes it's true I need to be consistent with wake up. I'm always cautious around OT so I always want him to at least get 11 hours over night sleep which is also why I hesitate to wake him up if he's out. I have to think of the bigger picture with that though.

Lillian I do have some questions about the routine you posted. It's so tempting for me to jump in especially since he's clearly UT then OT. Tonight he woke up again shortly after BT.

- I noticed on the 5-6 month routine the first two A times are between 2-2.5 hrs then 3 hours to bed. Right now DS is doing 2:40 in A times but he is still doing 1:10-1:20 naps which indicate UT. Has anyone successfully used this routine when their LO were on higher first two A times? Did the longer A before bed help longate naps to at least  1.5?
-what is the reasoning behind the shorter first two A times?
- how do I know if DS does well with OT? I mean he's not a monster when he is OT. It's actually the opposite, he's that wired happy OT baby haha.

Sorry for all the questions! I do appreciate the help once again!

[lily_layne]

Has anyone successfully used this routine when their LO were on higher first two A times? Did the longer A before bed help longate naps to at least  1.5?

The poster that I got this from did have her LO on longer first As and pared them back with success. The longer A to bed is supposed to encourage a longer nap - essentially their body learns to sleep longer earlier in the afternoon knowing they've got a long stretch to bed.

what is the reasoning behind the shorter first two A times?

I think it's based on research about body clocks and sleep windows but I'm not sure. I was rereading BWSAYP and noticed that Tracy does recommend the first nap being around 9/930 even as they get older (based on a 7 am WU so 2/2.5 h A time).

how do I know if DS does well with OT? I mean he's not a monster when he is OT. It's actually the opposite, he's that wired happy OT baby haha.

It's partly behavior and partly how they sleep when OT. DD was wired an happy but had more disturbed sleep when OT. DS is a bit of a bear but then just tends to crash and catch up.

Another common routine is a 2-3-4 so something like:
WU: 7
S: 9-10
S: 1-3
BT: 7
or
WU: 7
S: 9-1030
S: 130-3
BT: 7

[JennVanessa1083]

Thanks Lillian!

My DS sounds just like your DD. he is wired and happy but then has terrible sleep as a result. He definitely is not a crashing all night bc of exhaustion type although I wish he were.

I'm wondering what's the range in which they get accustomed to this routine?

What if LO is teething or going through a spurt, is it still ok to start? I actually want to start the routine you first demonstrated maybe Monday. This weekend We are out and about but will be working on a 2:45 A for the AM. Bc of his temperament should I ease into the routine?

How does that happen?

I think the 2-3-4 may be too much of a jump for now.

Sorry for all the questions!

[lily_layne]

I'm wondering what's the range in which they get accustomed to this routine?

Do you mean how many days? If yes, I would say from 2-3 days up to a week.

What if LO is teething or going through a spurt, is it still ok to start?

It sounds like you are at the tail end of a growth spurt so I would go ahead. If you suspect teething pain, I would give advil or Tylenol before sleep.

Bc of his temperament should I ease into the routine?

I would probably just jump in - I'm a bit impatient that way I would also do whatever needed to resettle if he wakes early during a nap. Use EBT where needed to rescue a day with two short naps. Don't forget, you can pull the naps forward 15 minutes or so if he wakes early in the am or has a shorter am nap.

[Shiv52]

I agree. I think you just need to jump in. Until u get a wee bit of consistency it's so hard to know what's is affecting things xx

[JennVanessa1083]

Ok! Well ladies here goes nothing! I will jump right in as I feel he can handle it.

Does the routine have to start at 7? Can it start a little later or is that not advisable?

If it's 2 rubbish naps, how early would I need the EBT? Or how long would a CN be and after how much A time would the CN take place?

I am assuming I still resettle even after a short UT nap until he gets used to the shortened first two As.

This looks like a solid plan! I really hope it resolves issues. Last night he went back to two NW. I shortened the CN and had. 1.75 to bed. He was OT but quickly resettled and slept nearly 6 hours! That hasn't happened in a awhile so I'm hoping with the new routine it will help keep things consistent.