Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW

[Shiv52]

You can start whenever suits you. We were doing typical rhythms in class in Friday and the science of melatonin and it begins to drop off any time from 7.15-8.15 so anywhere in there is fine. 

Sorry I'm not getting something?  What do you mean by this:

I am assuming I still resettle even after a short UT nap until he gets used to the shortened first two As.

Shortened As?  I can't imagine you would have any luck extending an UT nap at all. And if you wanted to try I'd do 10 mins tops then get him up.  Are you doing the routine you've found on here?  And not one based on A times?

[JennVanessa1083]

Good morning!

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Lilian's routine that she posted to this thread calls for the first two A times to be between 2-2.5 (depending on which routine I adopt). I'm leaning towards the one for 6-9 months with first two A times of 2.5 and last A before bed at 3 hours. My concern is UT naps since LO has been doing an A of 2:40-2.75 and barely making it to a 1.5 hr nap( it's been between 1:10-1:25, but mostly 1:10). In the last two days he wakes up at the 38-43 minute mark crying. I'm assuming still UT. So if I cut back to a 2.5 A for the first two, I may get UT naps that will be less than 1.5. I'm wondering if I should continue to resettle despite a UT nap; surprisingly I have had success doing it even though it is infinitely harder lol but I'm assuming that within these routines (Lillian's) doing the first two A times of 2.5 has a reasoning behind it rather than doing say 2.75 or more for the first two A times?

Right now I have been doing A times of 2.40-2.75 depending on length of last nap which has mild success in terms of cot parties but naps aren't as long as they should be. I planned to start the routine posted to this thread tomorrow. But then I'm wondering if I should have a different set nap times? I do like the idea of set naps rather than constantly calculating A. I was thinking the 6-9 month one would suit him better...or should I start with the 5-6 month one?

Very interesting about the melatonin! That helps bc my LO wakes up closer to 8 naturally but started getting accustomed to a 7:30 WU which is my ultimate goal so BT can stay between 7:30-8.

[Shiv52]

Then maybe Lillian clarify?  I've not heard of people using a set routine not based on their own child's A times?  Do you not just end up with UT naps leading to mega OT by the end of the day plus needing a shorter day or the need for a CN?

[JennVanessa1083]

That would be great as I am so confused on how this works...

Also I realized that my LO never adds to his night sleep when day sleep is shortened so not sure if I should cap naps on this new routine because I think that would lead to OT at night. I think that makes him LSN correct?

I'm wondering if set naps can be adjusted to child's A? I think LO is moving towards increasing A from 2.75 so not sure how it can be tweaked.

This is all new territory for me 

[lily_layne]

I've not heard of people using a set routine not based on their own child's A times?  Do you not just end up with UT naps leading to mega OT by the end of the day plus needing a shorter day or the need for a CN?

It is a routine from a book that another poster on here used. It's not so much that it's not based on an LO's A times - they are generally appropriate age-based averages, but that it usually works for a quite a while rather than pushing A times every few weeks. Of course, not every LO will do the exact same thing.  For me, it was pretty much based on my LOs A times because when I started it he was ready for a push in A time. The original poster started it after pushing A times for quite a while with limited success and found things got better when she shortened the first 2 A times and lengthened the last one. If the routine really didn't work for an LO you could certainly end up with what you described but a lot of my non-BW friends have arrived to something similar (based on LOs own cues) and had success. I think the keys are the earlier am and pm naps (even Tracy recommends the am nap be around 9/930) and that longer last A.

I'm wondering if set naps can be adjusted to child's A? I think LO is moving towards increasing A from 2.75 so not sure how it can be tweaked.

You can also base them off A times that work for you. Do you think you have built up OT? If you do, shortening the first A times and lengthening the last may help. Really, the only way to know is to be consistent for a few days and see what happens.

Even some non-LSN LOs don't add on to nights - its more about how much sleep they need on average. If he's doing around 3hrs of day sleep that's pretty typical for his age so in theory (it all sounds good in theory doesn't it ) should be ok.  Also, if he's waking crying I wouldn't assume it's UT even if it's at 38-40 minutes. For my LOs, how they woke mattered more than when they woke - sometimes my DS wakes crying at 2 hrs if he was OT when the nap started.

[lily_layne]

I also just want to clarify that I'm not saying the routines I posted are they only ones that work - that's the beauty of BW, we know there's lots of options - but that they worked well for me and other moms that I'm friends with. I was just sharing to help you find something that works.

[JennVanessa1083]

Thank you Jillian for clarifying a bit more!

I am definitely interested in establishing a routine that perhaps is more set.

Maybe I'm just not good at reading my LO

LO may have accumulated OT since NW and EW still happen. Last night it was 4 but I know it was OT due to bad naps all day (we were out and about). With naps, he sometimes wakes up happy and sometimes (lately with the same A time) fussy and/or crying. It could be the teething. I noticed he has been fussier in general and biting and gnawing more; including biting me while breastfeeding...ouch! So the teething could be why he has been waking up midnap crying. I try to give him teething camila before his naps. During the teething phase, even if they aren't cutting teeth do I shorten A a bit? Or plow on?

I am finding that this age is tricky! Ultimately my goal is to have good naps and more importantly no more ENW!

Out of curiosity, Shiv, did you also set nap times?

[Shiv52]

Yes I set nap times but based on A times my LO was needing.  Set naps based on particular times isn't really BW.  My friend did Gina Fords routine and that's what she did.  Set times regardless. 

Hope today has been ok x

[JennVanessa1083]

If you don't mind could you show me the routine when your LO was around this age?

Things improved last night. I'm realizing a very short CN (20 minutes) and short A before BT has helped. It's not perfect (but what ever is) but I definitely see improvement. Is a nap of 1:15 restorative?

[Shiv52]

How are things Hun?

At this age I did 2.45 A time 2 naps and a 20/30minute CN and shorter A time to bed. We had an 11 hour night to fit it in. At 6 months we moved to 3 hours A time and got rid of the CN.

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Shiv!

Things are better for sure in terms of NW. We have 2-3 right now which is way better than 4-6. I get messed up when I attempt to do two naps and EBT. Just doesn't work no matter how hard I try lol he's not the baby that tacks on sleep at night. However, past two nights he has been doing 11.5 hrs of sleep so my aim is a 12 hour day to accomplish his hours. Needless to say I'm happy with the improvements!

I still get the wake up right after bedtime so I can't seem to get the A after a 20 minute CN. I'm pushing for 2.75 since 2.40 isn't enough. Giving it a couple of days to see. I was wondering how much A you give after your CN. I thought we needed shorter which worked one night but then I realized he didn't have a well rested night the night before so when I tried an hour A again after a well rested night, it didn't work. He ended up falling asleep at almost 1.75 A.

Also if I'm doing a 2.75 A and he wakes up between 35-42 into the naps fussy and crying, that means OT right?

[JennVanessa1083]

Ahhhhh I'm going crazy!!!

NW have increased and he's teething. I'm not sure what to do with my EASY. It's become such a mess. Today he only napped for 34 minutes and it was the first time I couldn't resettle. He's OT and I don't know what to do! I need help to restart the EASY or something. I have completely lost my way.

[Shiv52]

Ugh!!

Can you post the last few days?  How's the self settling been?

[JennVanessa1083]

  I know! Now granted I did let him sleep later than the 8 am WU because he had bad nights of teething. However, does this explain the increase in wakings? The later WU? Because if that's all there is then I will be much more rigid on it.

I do know teething causes sleep disturbances but when he wakes up, he's not crying each time. Sometimes, he just pops right up.  I am also having issues with naps. I do give him natural teething gel before naps and baby tylenol before sleep; I feel like it barely works but maybe it's not supposed to work 100%. I also don't feed to sleep at each waking, I have shh patted when I don't feed.

Here are the last few days. I was trying to experiment with A's to try to alleviate OT but I think it backfired when I tried.

Thursday's:

NW 10:13 pm, 2:41 am, 5:55 am  Total/ 10.25 hrs 

WU 8:26 am
E
A
E 10:40 S 10:54- 12:53 pm (A 2:28;fussy and crying; patted down; woke up OT at 30( rocked since he was crying)
E 1:12
A
E 2:25
A S 3:18- 4:38 pm (A 2:25; fussy; patted)
E 4:48 pm
A
S 7:05- 7:27 (A 2:25; rocked; fussy and crying)
E 7:28 pm
A
E 8:34 pm
S 8:54-9:30 pm

Yesterday's:

NW 9:30-10:11; 11:25 pm, 3;31 am, 5:30 am  Total night sleep: ~10.5 hrs 
Woke up at 7:24 gums were sore; nursed him went back to sleep at 7:44 am 

WU 8:44 am
E 8:59
A
E 10:26 am
A
S 10:52- 12:22 pm (A 2:08; sing and patted; woke up 10 minutes later crying and banging mouth against cot (teething pain) tried to pat but escalated took him into my arms and fell asleep; woke up again at 40 picked him up again to fall asleep. Probably UT)
E 12:23 pm
A
S 2:49-4:16 pm (A 2:28; cried and fussed; patted ; woke up at 36 minutes crying either OT or teething. Rocked him)
E 4:26
A
E 6:03 pm
A
S 6:43- 7:03 pm (A 2:27: rocked)
A
E 7:38-8:03 pm
A S 8:19- (A 1:16; rocked because still trying to figure out A time)

Today's:

NW 8:55-9:38 pm, 10:01, 12:07, 3:03, 6:27 am

Total: ~10.5

Woke up tired and cranky

WU 8:13 am
E 8:18 am
A
E 9:49 am
A
S 10:31- 11:20 am (A 2:18; sung and patted; woke up at 34; tried shh pat but got agitated. Aaron said he woke up happy; after getting 2 more minutes of sleep he was wide awake. UT)
A
E 12:30 pm
A
S 1:30- 2:54 pm (A 2:10; shh pat; agitated with singing)
E 3:02 pm
A
S 5:29:5:50 pm (2:35; fussy and crying)
E 5:52 pm
A
S 7:14-7:58 pm (A 1:24; sung and patted; took 10 minutes; quietly drifted) right now in the process of resettling.
S 8:14- (Woke up screaming at 16 minutes and 51 minutes and 1:02 and 1:16 minutes when landed on back; tried shh pat after picking him up and resulted in screaming; rocked him for less than a minute)

I know my A times are all over the place. I had him at 2.40 for almost a week but he was getting what seemed OT naps as he would wake up crying and that's when the NW started. So I tried lowering the A to hopefully chip away what I think is accumulated OT. Now I seem to have confused myself and lost my way on what works and what doesn't 

[Shiv52]

Looking at that I'll be honest that there is a few issues I think are contributing.

I think you need to make sure he is not feeding until there is at least 3 hours but more likely 3.5 hours between feeds to get rid of that snacking.  I think given how long that had been going on as I remember mentioning it ages ago that is likely contributing.

I also think you need to work on self settling.  Is he settling for any naps or bedtime without your help? 

Hugs xx