Please Help-Bedtime Issues Worsening-ENW and NW

[Shiv52]

BW is obviously very much about watching for cues but when you are pushing a new A time for those first few days you push you try to get as close to A time. In BW solves all your problems Tracey writes a great chapter on establishing a new routine and how you push the A time and then go back to reading cues. Do you have that book so I do think you should push that first A time.  If he starts showing tired cues then change the scenery, go for a walk in the garden and just see does that help him extend.

How did the rest of the night go?   

Can you post the whole day yesterday?  Just so I can see what I may have done differently? 

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Shiv!

Well last night didn't go so great. I think I know what I could have done differently but I know I could use some BW insight and wisdom.

Here's the routine from yesterday:

NW: 10:25, 2:23

WU: 7:50 am
E: 8am
A
E 9:14 am
A
S 9:46- 11:18 am (A 1:56); self settled
E 11:25 am
A
E 12:35 pm
A
S 1:12- 3:10 pm (A 1:54); self settled; woke up at 47 minutes crying finished nap in my arms
E 3:27 pm
A
E 4:30 pm
S 4:45 pm-5:37 (A 1:35; tried to keep him awake but knocked out)
E 5:48 pm
A
E 6:54 pm
S 7:04 pm

Woke up at around 8; didn't go back to sleep until 9. Then woke up at 10:30 and didn't go back to sleep until almost midnight. It was rough trying to get him to settle. I had to APOP it finally. He had gotten to the crying point by then.
I think he was UT from too much day sleep but I could be wrong. He did not have any other NW after that.

I don't have have that book...I have the first book. I'm thinking of getting the BW Solves All Your Problems to gain more insight. Of course I get GREAT insight in this forum!

[Shiv52]

I'm not sure if it's too much day sleep or just not enough A time but I do think you are right and he was UT.

I do wonder about those feedings though. I think if you hadn't have fed at 4.30pm you'd have been able to stretch that A time. I imagine the feedings before the naps can make him drowsy and he's all snuggled.

When you say he woke at 47 minutes crying and finished the nap which was nearly 2 hours in your arms?  Did you hold him the whole time?  Or did you manage to get him back down?

How has today been? 

[ENMS]

Hi there!

I think our LO's are close in age. I haven't read everything but just wanted to share that my DD cannot have a long CN, I need to keep it under 30 minutes and then she needs at least 2h of A Time before Bt (we've had up to 2h30 for this last A).

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Shiv!

Yes I thought about maybe the A not being long enough after the nap especially since it went longer than 45 minutes. I agree about the feeds. Thankfully today I spaced out the feeds enough where it didn't cut A time or lead to napping.
Yes I was able to eventually put him down but he did sleep a good amount of time in my arms.

Today went better. He had two 1.5 naps. The morning there was no need to resettle and the afternoon all I had to do was help him turn over (he was still asleep) and that was it. A big success since he always woke up mid nap during the afternoon!

He just took a CN of 35 minutes. He's been on a 2 hr A time all day with no issues. Now the tricky part will be BT.

Hi Enms: I was considering that his CN can't be too long as well. Could be needing long A to bed but it's hard to tell.

[JennVanessa1083]

Ahhhh so I think I did the same basic thing with my routine as yesterday and now find myself with a wired LO!! I think my A was still not long enough.

WU: 9:06 am
E 9:16
A
E 10:10
A
S 11:05-12:32 pm (A 1:59); self settled took 7 minutes
A
E 1:09 pm
A
S 2:28- 4:08 pm(A 1:56) self settled
E 4:18 pm
A
E 5:38 pm
S 6-6:36 pm (A 1:52)
A
E 7:09
A Bedtime Routine
S 8:22-9:16 pm (A 1:46)
E

And still up!!!! It's almost 10:30 and he is wired! He only had a 35 minute CN. Is it possible he is still UT?

[Shiv52]

I think given his wake up was after 9am he treated the 8.30 bedtime as a nap. What is your gut on the length of night he needs?  I know some LOs do 12 hours or more. My DD1 only ever did 11/11.5 and I had to base her day length accordingly.  She seemed to prefer the longer day and if I tried to shorten it we had more NWs. It was like she was making up for lost A time in the night that she didn't get in the day. 

Great news on the naps though!!!!

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Shiv!!

Thanks for responding. I'm just getting lost on this whole bedtime thing. I am really happy about the naps though; so much progress. I have noticed my LO does about 11 hours of sleep when I added the hours up (not including) NW. I just don't know how to stretch the day without causing him to have a super late BT. I don't mind having a longer than 12 hr day I'm just not sure how that would look.

Do you know how I can begin to do that? His naps never exceed 1hr 43 minutes and his CN range from 35-45 minutes. His A is still 2 hrs. Maybe if I extend the A after the CN? I'm not sure if his ENW are UT or OT or a mix of both.

[Shiv52]

chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months



4 hour EASY
2 hour A time
two-2 hour naps + one catnap
Total daytime sleep: 4 hr. 40 min.
Total nighttime sleep: 10 hrs. 45 min to 11 hrs. 15 min.)

Here is Joey's schedule at 14 weeks.  I don't wake him unless I'm protecting his third catnap or bedtime.  I also don't do a DF.

wake up anywhere from 7-7:30 but I try to not feed until 7:30
E 7:30
A
S 9:20-11:30
E 11:30
A
S 1:30-3:30
E 3:30
A
S 5:30-6:00
E 7:00
A Bath
E 7:45ish (just an ounce or two to make sure he goes to sleep not hungry)
S 8:15 p.m. asleep



This is just an example from the above link.  Would something like this work?  If you took into account you don't get 2 hours naps you could get a 12 hour day or slightly over. It does seem some babies still need a decent A time after their CN to be tired enough to sleep and I guess if you did 45 mins which is for most a full sleep cycle you may well have him manage 1.45/2 hours after?

[JennVanessa1083]

Yes it's definitely worth a try!

My guess is my LO needs a decent A; maybe even a full blown 2 hrs A. After studying his records, I realize that last nights sleep after a 1.75 A resulted in a 50 minute nap; other nights it seems to be the same pattern more or less. Although he woke up because I moved him, I'm also guessing we wasn't tired enough because he stayed awake for his full A afterwards then went to sleep. Even though he briefly woke up around 11, I still think it started with a UT sleep at BT then resulted in OT because he didn't sleep enough and did a full A. That's my current hypothesis lol

I was planning to do close to a 2 hr A after my CN and see how it goes. At this point, I will try anything. I figured OT is better than UT.

[Shiv52]

Let me know how you get on today x

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Shiv,

Well last night was the same thing. He only slept a total of 8 1/2 hours. Both days o couldn't get him up at 8 because he's so tired. Is he going to be chronically fatigued? What are some tips on waking him up?

This was yesterday's EASY

NW 1:54; 5:34

WU: 9:18 am
E 9:29
A
E 10:33 am
A
S 11:20- 12:59 pm (A 2:02); self settle
A
E 1:20 pm
A
E 2:30 pm
A
S 3:01- 4:42 pm (A 2:02) self settle; woke up crying at 36 minutes resettled; possible OS
E 5:02 pm
A
E 5:50 pm
A
S 6:51- 7:33 pm (A 2:09) rocked bc wouldn't settle
A
E 8:07 pm
A including BT routine and top off feed
S 9:37-10:11 (A 2:04); wouldn't self settle; was crying with Aaron so worked up.

Stayed up and nursed more until 12:09 am; very hyper and irritable. Then woke up at 5:39 and went back to sleep around 6 OT?

Because he slept a broken 8 1/2 hours; how do I approach BT? I'm planning on still keeping A the same since I'm pushing it. Is this the right move?

[Shiv52]

Hey lovely. It's my little girls bday and we've been out and out all day between bday party and seeing family and I am beat and headed to bed. I'll be on in the morning to have a good look. 

How's today been? Xxxxx

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi Shiv!!

Happy birthday to your little girl! I'm sure she is enjoying every bit of it 

Well so far today has been ok. He hit 4 months today and I think is going through a growth spurt which would make sense considering his behavior in the last couple of days. Anyways today his morning nap was golden. No resettling and slept 1.5 hrs. Also he woke up at 8 am finally!! His afternoon nap which I am actually holding him as I type, was ok but he woke up at 43 minutes so I had to eventually resettle him as he was growing agitated in trying to resettle himself. As usual he self settles for naps.

Last night he went to bed earlier (8:30 pm) but woke up every 1.5 hrs wanting to eat. I have been working on separating nursing from sleep which has been going well. I changed up my BT routine to separate nursing. Unfortunately, he is having a hard time still with self settling to sleep. I feel like the A times are still not right. I had to hold him through all the jolts from 8:30-11. Finally at 11 he fell into a deep sleep until around 4 am then went back to sleep waking up at 8 am for the day. Here's the EASY from yesterday. I am wondering if he needs longer As already or is he just OT by the end of the day or is this a sleep regression I'm dealing with. Hmmmm so many questions lol

Whenever you can, if you can take a look and let me know what you think.

Yesterday's:

NW 5:37 am (ate) went back to sleep around 6

WU: 9:07 am
A
E 9:48 am
A
S 10:59- 12:34 pm (A 1:52); self settle
A
E 1:13 pm
A
S 2:38- 4:10 pm(A 2:04; should have brought him to room sooner. Couldn't settle had to rock him; woke up at 34 minutes rocked him again)
E 4:20 pm
A
E 5:30 pm
A
S 6-:11- 6:53 pm (A 2:01)
E 7:06 pm
A Bath and Bedtime routine

E 7:57 pm
S 8:28 pm (A 1:33)


Today's (so far):

NW 9:54 pm, 11:42 pm, 3:54 am

WU: 8:08 am
E 8:24 am
A
E 9:39 am
A
S 10:08-11:37 (A 2hrs); self settle
E 11:56 am
A
E 1:10 pm
A
S 1:38- (A 2:01); self settle; woke up at 43 minutes crying trying to resettle himself; after waiting for 5-10 minutes; I resettled him

Thank you again!!

[Shiv52]

Hello!!!

So he seems to be doing well overall. Although he's waking after bedtime he seems a little bit easier to settle?  I think you are right that he could have hit a growth spurt. Both mine had huge 4 month GS.

Typically a 43 minute nap would be UT but seeing as you got him resettled he could have been slightly OT maybe just with the shorter night?  Or like the first nap it could be as simple as him needing a bit of help resettling and them he will start extending on his own.

I think keeping on being consistent is the key. I wouldn't want to see that first nap get any shorter than 1.5 and if so he may well meed another 10 minutes A time.

How has he been with your DH?  Has he been able to do bedtimes yet?