Author Topic: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.  (Read 3281 times)

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Offline theu.s.lees

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Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« on: September 29, 2015, 14:37:26 pm »
I feel like I have never left this board with DD. She will be 7 months on October 6th, but has never STTN. It started getting worse just before 6 months. I feel like we aren't making any progress and DH and I are so tired. Her days seem to be good and reasonable (especially with 3 kids, and a preshool run 4 days a week). I will post her usual EASY below. The NW are starting as early as 1 hour after BT and lasting all night, every 1-2 hours. She goes down well for naps, and sleeps well. She has a good wind down routine and isn't nursed to sleep. The middle of the night, is of course different. She's 17 lbs at 7 months, so she isn't starving. And I've tried to rule out other things like teeth (given Advil and those nights don't improve) and such.

EAS
WU/E: 6:45 (not ideal, but typical)
S:  9:30/9:45 - 11:15 (She usually can make it 3 hours unless she had a really really bad night).
E: 11:15 BF
A
E: 1pm solids
S: 2:15 - 3:45/4pm
E: 4pm
A
E: 5pm solids (I've tried with and without solids here)
A
E: 7 BT

Then NW all night long. Last night DH really helped to try to settle her so we didn't feed her. After a BT of 7:20, DH settled her at 8:30, 9:20, 12, and 5pm. I nursed her at 12:30, 2:30, and 5pm (after DH and I tried resettling for 30 minutes). She then slept until 7:15 this morning. I have tried cutting her naps back to 1.5 hours. I have tried stretching her A time (which then leads to poor naps and nights are still bad). I've posted on the BF boards to see if she's getting enough, not really getting an answer. I believe that she is. But now I'm just not sure.

Oh and for resettling, we aren't PUPD. But a modified shh/pat where we roll her on her side, put our hands on her back and shhh until she's quiet and then hold our hands there for a little bit longer. The shh/pat doesn't work as it did when she is younger as I would expect.

This is child 3 and I feel like a new mom all over again. I don't know how to help her sleep and I look like a zombie!



Offline theu.s.lees

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2015, 16:46:07 pm »
To update a little. DH started helping more with the resettles at night. We had one "good" night with only 2 night feedings and he resettled her once besides that. I'm not sure what is going on, whether we have an EASY problem, a prop problem or what. Her days seem good, she goes down well for naps, naps well, and is a happy girl. But she doesn't sleep at night! I think my hard time is where to fit in the last feedings of the day. If she is up at 4pm from her nap, nurses, then eats dinner, then I top her off before BT routine, that's a lot in a 3 hour period. But I'm not sure what else to do and/or how to add in solid foods I guess. At the NW though she ate a fair amount. Last night she was up several times, and I finally fed her, where she ate well. Then she was up again two more times where DH couldn't settle her and I had to feed.



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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2015, 17:45:33 pm »
Just letting you know your post has been noticed. Sorry you didn't get any replies yet.
Bump.


Offline lily_layne

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2015, 20:30:51 pm »
I am a bit stumped. Your day looks really good so it doesn't look like a routine issue to me. I will think on this a bit.
DD - August 2012
DS - November 2014

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 18:26:34 pm »
How are things now?


Offline theu.s.lees

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 21:24:46 pm »
Not great. She had 4-5 NW last night. DH resettled her once and then tried two of the other times but j ended up having to feed her. She took a full feed 3 times. She nirses well during the day (she may get a little distracted but I think she's getting enough) and we are doing solids 1-2 times per day. I thought maybe she was OT at BT since her day ended up a little over 12 hours but she only had a 3 hr a time to bed time. I was at a shoot last night at BT so DH have her a bottle and she went down perfectly he said. Not on the bottle to sleep. But the night was rough.
I've been scouring the boards for ideas and saw something about solids. So I'm trying it only at breakfast time for a few days and 1 hr after nursing.

I think the hard thing is that she's on a 4.5-5hr EAS which might be a long time between feedings even though she can handle it.

On another note she was 17lbs and 6oz at her 6 month apt so she's not starving! But she is acting it at night.



Offline lauradj

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2015, 02:46:25 am »
Hey hon, I'm sorry you're still struggling with this.  I wonder if H needs an morning meal?  My H is currently have three solids meals a day, only 2oz each time, plus his bottles.  Might that be just enough to help her push through?  Your EASY looks good.  I don't think she's ever been an independent sleeper, has she?


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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2015, 05:01:39 am »
She is pretty independent during the day. But can't seem to carry it over. I can see about adding meals. It's just all going to pot. It is 10 and she's already up. DH is trying to resettle her but I'm not optimistic that I won't have to feed her.



Offline lauradj

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 18:10:47 pm »
Ok, so I need to ask you a brutally honest question.  Are you feeding H because she's genuinely hungry, or are you going in to feed her because you know it will quiet her and put her back to sleep?  If you feel all her calorie needs are being met, solids and milk wise, and you're 95% sure she's waking from habit not hunger, it may be time for PU/PD.


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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2015, 19:30:52 pm »
Hi there
I've just read through your posts here and on your BF thread to see if I could get an idea of what's going on for you.

I see on the BF thread you said she has reflux and is medicated.  Although you had the meds checked for dose quite recently it could well be that these meds are not helping her enough and it is highly likely you need to go back to your doctor and ask about alternatives or to be referred to a higher health professional (sorry, I don't know how things work where you are, here I'd ask my doc for a referral to a paediatrician).  Ranitidine is not the only medication available for reflux and there are many LOs who need other meds.
When you take into account that her day routine and ability to self settle are all good, that she eats well in the day and so on, it really does point to a discomfort problem at night.  Night is a very long time to go in pain. Whilst she might happily go down for a 1.5hr- 2hr nap and cope with laying down and staying asleep for that length of time that might be the maximum length of time she can really stay laying down before the discomfort overwhelms her, it would make sense that she is up SO frequently at night.
The other aspect is that refluxers can find comfort in suckling and swallowing, milk helps to neutralise the acid and the swallowing action can help to take the acid back down.  This would make sense with the number of feeds she needs at night.
Silent reflux gives all the discomfort without much (or any) spitting up.  Mine had silent reflux, the difference on meds was unbelievable.
I really do advise seeking further help from a medical professional.
I also advise, if you don't already have them, to look for a cot wedge and cot blocks to elevate her sleeping, make sure they are health checked for safety.
I see she is a side sleeper - laying her on her left side is preferable as this works to keep acid down (it's to do with the shape of the tube etc) whilst on her right may allow more acid up.

As she has reflux I would not recommend PUPD. The action of too many PUPDs is like shaking a pop bottle and can cause more pain.  I only once did a very short PUPD with my silent refluxer, he was totally independent sleeper but it was his transition from hammock to cot which caused a disturbance. I kept the PU level and low so his body position changed very very little and he calmed with my lift. I placed him back gently, he'd cry, I picked him again, each time I only lifted about 5 cm from the mattress to hugely reduce the amount of movement and so as not to aggravate the reflux.  It was super hard work on my back leaning over the cot like that but I knew two things 1. he was not suffering a reflux flare up and was on a good level of meds for him, 2. that his inability to sleep was purely due to the hammock/cot transition and he needed some reassurance.
I'm mentioning this in case you ever find you need to do similar but I don't advise this to solve your current night wakes because it is not a matter of a recent easily identifiable temporary problem.

OK, reflux aside, a few things you might want to rule out:
- does the temperature change much at night, is she getting too cold? too hot?
- can she roll to reposition herself when she needs to (to prevent the discomfort of being still all night)?
- is there anything different about her sleeping arrangements between nap time and night sleep?
- are there any noises at night which might be disturbing her (such as traffic noise which might blend with general 'life' noise for naps but which might seem loud at night)?
- is there a chance she can here you during a nap (TV, radio, you chatting) which is missing during the night?
- are her bed clothes comfortable?

You don't need to answer all these, but do give each careful consideration and maybe investigate further. Tracy taught us to look at the bigger picture, sleep disturbance is not always about routine and props.  And if it is "no" to all those things then I'd go back to the reflux issue.

hugs, you must all be exhausted with being up so often at night xx  You'll get through it, you will.

Edited to add: I would skip the evening meal for now. You just don't need anything near bed time which could throw a question into the works about gas, intolerance or digestion. I would offer breakfast, 1 hr after milk, and lunch 1 hour after milk (roughly, the times are not crucial), be sure to offer water along with solids and offer a top up BF straight after solids if she is interested.  she does not need to be eating a lot of solids, just tastes on those 2 meal times. hth x
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 19:33:50 pm by creations »


Offline lauradj

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 21:48:32 pm »
Yup^^^  Sorry love, I totally forgot H has reflux.  I agree with creations, PU/PD would not be a good idea. 


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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2015, 15:31:11 pm »
Thank you for your help ladies. I feel so confused.

We totally saw what you were talking about. So we raised her bed and moved solids to morning and lunch. The first night it went down to just two! But things went downhill after that. I ended up taking her to the ped yesterday about her reflux. She wasn't sure it was her reflux (as babies usually settle down around 6 months).... I can see her side, it could be habit. But it also could be discomfort. I'm not sure. She upped her meds to 2.2ml twice a day for two weeks. If that doesn't help we can go up to 2.5ml twice per day and then she would send us to a GI if things don't improve.

Last night she did the long stretch of 4.5 hours and then was up every few hours again. I tried resettling, used gripe water, got a good burp out even, but she wouldn't stay down. DH then tried, and I ended up having to feed her again. She did do an okay stretch (honestly I have no idea what time) with DH resettling at 5:30 and now it is 8:23 and she's still asleep. (I'm going to wake her, I just needed a little break).

I guess I'm just not sure what to do next, or what to do during the NW. If she's in pain, I want to help her, of course. But I also don't want to be perpetuating a problem if it isn't the reflux. How should I deal with NW?

I was hoping to try to resettle with gripe water and then feed if she won't stay down. Yet, won't there be resistance even if it isn't reflux, so how do I know?



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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2015, 20:57:20 pm »
Based on her decent day time routine and ability to self settle I would assume it is discomfort at night (or rather hunger at a reasonable E time and discomfort at any other time, for which she might find comfort in feeding again even if it is not an E time).
Whilst doctors may say (and whilst it may be true for many) reflux settles down at 6 months for mine it was around 5 months he started on reflux meds, so actually we had somehow coped for 5 months (getting worse and worse though and finally getting meds).  Several months later his reflux really became worse and I wasn't 'seeing' it, it was the ladies here on BW who helped me realise this was the problem.  The doc said DS was on max meds and I was back here saying it can't be reflux it has to be some other problem...only to get the reply that it really is reflux.  They were right too. I spoke to the paedi instead of the doc (different health care system here) and turned out DS needed almost 4 times his dose.  I am really not a reflux expert in any way shape or form, I'm just looking at your posts and that's the thing that leaps out at me.
I'd trial the increased meds, increase again if needed as per your docs instruction, and then be referred on.
Sorry I don't have any other advice. I can only offer (above) my own experience and how amazed I was by my DS's improvement when his dose was corrected.  He stopped meds around 2yo, we had 2years without meds and then at 4yo guess what, reflux was back!  And I was back on here asking about it and back to the docs arguing that he needed meds again.  It was a temporary thing being back on meds and he's off them again now...


Offline theu.s.lees

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2015, 13:56:55 pm »
Thank you so much. While I don't wish you had a similar situation it is nice to know I'm not crazy when I think it's discomfort. Others will question me if its habit or what making me second guess myself. But I went on a girls retreat for three days (yay for full nights sleep!) and so it was up to DH. The night before I left I had one longish NW where I finally got a good burp and she settled and slept well. The first night gone she did two NW then the last night gone only one! Last night I nursed her at 5pm and we topped
Her up with a pumped bottle. She woke at 11:30 and then 6:30am for the day! It felt so good! DH was topping her up more at night so I worry I won't have enough milk to top her up myself. I may try and then pump right after for a few days to get production up at BT. I also put her upright when she pulled off and patted her back. I never got a burp out but she settled. Things are going in the right direction though!



Offline lauradj

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Re: Almost 7 Months and NW are every hour.
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2015, 20:21:38 pm »
Hurray!  What a great update!  I'm so glad you were able to get away for a weekend, what a difference a few nights of good rest can make.  I hope everything keeps improving  :D