Need help with almost 5 month old

[dkelly718]

Hi my son is almost 5 months old and I am just at a loss of what to do. My son was an amazing sleeper from the day he was born until the dreaded 4 month sleep regression and now it's been a complete mess for the last month. I admit I had gotten into the habit of nursing him to sleep because it was working so well. He would nap great and was only waking 1-2 times a night. Well after the regression he started napping 30-45 and now is getting up 5-6x a night. Of course he is looking for me to nurse him back to sleep.

After a lot of work I have gotten to the point where for most naps he will fall asleep independently or with a little bit of patting, however his naps are still 30-45 mins and the night wakings have not gotten any better. I was nursing him back to sleep for naps but even that wasn't consistent. I am just so exhausted I don't know what to do. I will try posting my easy but honestly we don't even have anything consistent. He goes to sleep at 8pm and usually wakes for the day at 8am and his A time is around 2-2h15m
here is the past two days
 Yesterday
7:30 wake/eat(he isn't really that hungry because he had woken up at 5:45 and I nursed him back to sleep)
9:30-10:00  Nap (fell asleep on the car ride home from dropping off DS1)
10:30 Eat
11:45-12:15 Nap on the way from pickin up DS1
1:30 eat
2:30-5:00 Nap (I think he just crashed woke up at 4:00 I nursed him and he fell back asleep)
bed 7:45p (I know this should have been earlier.)
Wake: 8:30-9:45(Im guessing becuase he was overtired) 11:00, 1:00, 4:30, 6:30

So far today
8:00 wake/eat
10:00-10:38 nap ( Tried to resettle for 20 mins but got hysterical so I gave up)
11:00 eat
1:00-1:41 nap (tried to put down by 12:45 but wouldn't settle)(Tried to resettle for 20 but got hysterical so I gave up)
2:00 eat
3:30 sleep woke up at 4:20 (I nursed back to sleep because we wouldn't have time for another nap and he really needed at least one good nap for the day.

So my question is I have been trying to resettle with out nursing but he gets absolutely hysterical arms flailing, back arching and I just end up giving up and get him up. At night I try the same thing sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I usually will cave and nurse him back to sleep because I'm just so tired and I  don't want him to wake up my older son. I really don't know what else to do any advice would be appreciated!!

[lily_layne]

Just bumping this for you. I hope tonight's better

[JennVanessa1083]

Hi!
And loads of hugs for you as I am going through a very similar situation. I am no expert on A times but for me short napping was due to my LO being under tired. Problem was I wouldn't shorten A afterwards so then I would end up with an OT baby by bedtime...not fun! So he wakes up multiple times as well due to UT then OT. It's a mess. I'm working on establishing the new A so naps can be longer this preventing OT on that end and working on the right A after a CN so he will be tired but not OT for bed. So maybe increasing it decreasing A? I was once told that it depends how he wakes and temperament. My LO wakes up happy when UT and fussy when OT for example.

My LO was a chronic catnapped 30-45 minute naps. What I had to do was extend A by 15 minutes since he was not tired enough to transition into the next sleep cycle. What also helped was going in before the sleep cycle ended and helping resettle. So that would mean quickly going in from 35-50 minutes hovering over to help my LO transition into the next sleep cycle. I have been doing this for almost two weeks and today was the first time he slept 1.5 on both naps! Worth a try?

Finally nursing to sleep. I did this with my LO. Honestly sometimes I still do when it's a desperate situation. I can only tell you my experience which is working on gently removing my breast earlier and earlier so he's not falling asleep at the breast. I started with naps, then as he got used to not having the nipple in his mouth when falling asleep, I started feeding him again 30 minutes before nap since he would be hungry. That way nursing was no longer associated with napping. Now I'm working on bedtime. My LO is stubborn lol so nighttime will take a bit of rearranging and possibly duplicating the nap routine to the tee.

Hope this helps!

[dkelly718]

Thank you so much for your advice. I can try extending A times but I went through the same thing with my older son and I drove myself nuts with trying to figure out the "perfect" A time. For him it was developmental and eventually he started taking longer naps. This time around it might be developmental also which is fine. But his nighttime wake ups are getting worse the past two nights he has been up every two hours. I am so exhausted I don't know what to do. Finally last night at 2:30 i brought him in bed with me and we were able to get a little more sleep. I really don't want to create anymore bad habits. When I try to do shh/pat to put him back to sleep he just starts getting absolutely hysterical. Even when I pick him up he is so enraged I don't even know what to do. I just can't keep going on like this every night. Yesterday I tried so hard to make sure he wasn't OT hoping that would help but it didn't.
Yesterday's schedule was
8:15 wakeup/eat
10:15-11:00 Nap
11:00 Eat
1:25-3:15 Nap I had to nurse him back to sleep when he woke up at 2:15
5:10-5:50 nap
8:10 bed
Wake-ups:10:30, 12:00-12:30, 2:30(I brought him in bed with me) 5:30, 7:15, 8:15 woke him up for the day

At night time I lay him down awake and he falls asleep and for some of his naps other times I have to pat him and he will go to sleep. I just don't know why he is waking up so much

[dkelly718]

Any advice? He has been waking up every 1-2 hours for the past three nights I really don't know how much more I can take

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))) Tough nights are hard on us mamas. Are you feeding for any of the NWs? 1 or 2 NFs at 5 months is normal.

It does seem like some them may be OT related. Could you get him into bed earlier for a night or 2 to see if that helps? I also have a routine using set naptimes that another poster recommended. I don't know if it would help solve the short naps but it may help. I can post it if you're interested.

[Gillian C]

Hi,

I'm not an expert, just a mother who a few weeks ago could have written your post verbatim, except my DS was 4 months.  What was recommended to us was the following:

Break the nursing prop.  This was REALLY hard, especially with the short naps.  But it meant shh-patting/PUPD to sleep at every NW and at the start of every nap.  The moderator also suggested trying to resettle after short naps with this is possible.  I've been really just focusing on extending one nap a day - the rest are still 30-45 minutes, but these past few days, we're up to 1 longer nap (2 hours - heaven!).  Instead of trying to stick with a 3.5 hour EASY, which was recommended for my DS's age (but impossible with short naps), I went with the philosophy of don't feed him right before or right after a nap.  So he gets up, about 30 minutes later, I feed him.  Since I stopped feeding him overnight, he has been eating SO much better during the day (he wouldn't eat anything at "breakfast" either!).

Nights - I committed to this at night, but it was rough for more than a week (didn't help that DS also got a cold in the middle of this!).  It took hours of shh-patting/PUPD to get him to sleep.  And his desperate and pitiful crying almost broke my resolve.  But, 2 weeks later, he is much better at resettling when he wakes up.  In fact, he has STTN for a couple of nights in a row.  Oh - and moving his bedtime to 7:00 (ish) really helped too, for some reason.  But it's creeping later again, and he seems ok, so I don't know if it was just a coincidence.

I've kind of ignored the "schedule" element of EASY, because like you, I couldn't predict or figure out exactly when he was OT or UT.  Mostly, because of the short naps, I decided he was OT, and watched for any sign that he was tired.  If tired, I'd start the wind-down routine.  Someone else posted that walking was a good calmer, so I always started with 5-10 minutes of just wandering around my house, singing quietly.  With extra winding down, my DS was calmer, more open to sleeping.  (Most naps are still really short - we're still working on this!)

And we're going with the daily pattern that works for us - I have a drop-off and pick-up for my older DD as well, so DS often falls asleep in the car (short nap) or has a nap postponed (OT).  It's a work in progress.

But since I broke that nursing prop, things have gotten SOOOOOO much better (although they had to get a lot worse first, I'm afraid).  I understand about not wanting to wake up your DS1 - do you have family or friends who could take him for a few nights?  Or a partner who could even do something like camp out in the basement with him (popcorn and movie sleepover with daddy)?  We just shut all the bedroom doors and hoped for the best, and DD mostly slept through it.

I don't know if this helps, but please believe me that I was there too.  It will get better!  Good luck.

[dkelly718]

Thank you so much for the advice. I am so glad things have gotten better for you as well. I really have been working on breaking the nursing habit. He goes naps and goes to bed independently without me nursing him. As far as night time. I do still feel he still needs to eat 1-2 times but what I have been doing is setting a time for example if he wakes up before 1am then I will use shh/pat etc... anytime after 1 am I will feed him then the second feeding is between 4-5 so anything before that I will try and resettle. Last night he woke up twice before 1 am but he put himself back to sleep!! (big victory!) Then I fed him at 1 am when he woke up and he slept until 5am! I then fed him again. Naps are still short but I haven't tried nursing him back to sleep. I have been using the swing to get him back to sleep which I know is trading one prop for another but he is still starting all naps in his crib and falling asleep independently so I am hoping they will eventually lengthen. Since I stopped nursing so much I have noticed his feeds are getting better and he can go about 3.5 hours inbetween which he really wasn't able to do. It's still not great but I am hoping they will start to improve

[lily_layne]

Wow!!! Good work, mama That's a lot of improvement in a short time.

Your nighttime plan sounds great. The 12/1am wakings are often developmental so if he'll settle without feeding that's great and they should hopefully disappear soon. Don't stress about finishing naps in the swing. You've made so much progress already and as he eats better and catches up on sleep, the naps will likely lengthen. If they haven't in a few days, we can help you try wake-to-sleep.

[dkelly718]

Thanks I have been working on the independent sleep for about a month so im glad its finally working. He is still waking up ever 2-3 hours at night and since he is crying a lot more because I won't nurse him his voice has become very hoarse. I feel terrible. Last night i couldnt bear the thought of him crying thinking that his voice hurt so I nursed him every time he woke up I know this isn't going to help the situation but I felt that crying was making his throat hurt and the milk would help make it feel better.

 I have tried wake to sleep numerous times and it never seems to work. I also tried doing a dream feed but that didn't really work either it may have given me an extra 1/2hr-hour but thats it. He has been habitually waking at exactly 3 hours from when he goes to sleep and I was hoping it would stop but it hasn't. Any thoughts?

[lily_layne]

I've been helping another mom that's also getting a NW 3 hrs after BT. I'm a bit stumped by that one honestly. If we come up with an answer, I promise I'll share it!

Do you want to post your EASY and I can see if anything stands out?

[MommaStorms]

I had some rough times with my DS around that age. It's pretty common. The BEST advise I got was to try this. Figure out how much sleep HE needs. Instead of trying to make him fit what a book says. Keep track of this over a few days. Chances are you already know is it pretty steady? Usually 13/14 hours? Maybe that is what he needs.  If not then just disregard the rest of this... Sorry, this is what worked for my baby and what I SHOULD have done with DD1 but I was so SET on getting her 15 hours of sleep a day.

Anyway, if it is lower then try reducing the night sleep from 12 hrs to 11 or even 10. You can keep him up later, or wake him up earlier or split the the difference but reduce night sleep. Then you can more evenly distribute naps.

This was our schedule around 5 months and it was not what ANYONE would have told me to do but it WORKED!! All our short naps ended! Night waking a went back down to 1, like 5am.

WU 7
Nap 9:30-10:30 wake him up no matter what.

Nap 2- as long as he wanted to sleep (and he would regularly sleep until 4pm)

Bed 8!!

I think I read he wakes up at 8:15 and naps again at 10:15 but only for 45 minutes, I think that's a pretty good sign that he can stay up longer. It got to a point, it didn't matter how he fell asleep (sometimes he was nursed to sleep if I ran late nursing him) he would still sleep the full 2 hours because he was tired enough to.  I wouldn't encourage that!! It's good to keep it seperate but I guess my point is that if he is tired enough, he will sleep.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes or give you contradictory information. I think if you are going to try this then please double check how long he is sleeping, figure out his average. If it is lower then it may be time to except he might not need the 15 hours other babies do.

[lily_layne]

Thanks for jumping with great advice, MommaStorms. Figuring out how much sleep he needs is a great starting point. I also got stuck on getting DD to have 15 hours sleep and that just wasn't what she needed. Trying to get her to sleep more than she needed was just never going to work!

[lily_layne]

I've been helping another mom that's also getting a NW 3 hrs after BT. I'm a bit stumped by that one honestly. If we come up with an answer, I promise I'll share it!

This was posted by a moderator on the other thread and it's a great idea. I totally forgot about wake to sleep.

"Ok, sounds like that 3hr after BT waking is habitual - have you tried wake to sleep? You basically go in an hour before he's likely to wake and stroke his cheek enough to make him stir but not wake (yes, its nerve-wracking for the sleep-deprived parent). That resets the sleep cycle and usually helps to train LO to sleep through that waking. You have to do it for about a week, then stop and see if it made a difference."

[MommaStorms]

P.S. I remember letting the fear of an overtired baby paralyzing me. But my baby really needed more A time and less sleep! OT sucks but sometimes you have to try something different. You know, your head will stop hurting when you stop banging it against the wall.