I'm so confused! Overtired or Undertired???

[lhanson7251]

So my LO is 12 weeks old and is a chronic 30 min napper!  About 90% of her naps are 30 min on the dot.  She is BF, and has started STTN for the past week (10-11 hrs).  But if she gets OT during the day we have very fitfull night sleep.  We have room darkening shades, sound machine, and swaddled.  She also puts herself to sleep for naps and nighttime in her crib.  There were two days last week that she slept for 2 hrs for her first nap after STTN so I know she can do it.  Both days her A time was 1 h 10 min, she was asleep 2 min after laying her down.  I just can't figure her A times out bc she shows no sleep cues!  Sometimes I'll catch a yawn and try to put her down right away and still a 30 min nap.  SHe's generally a happy girl when she's awake until she finally gets so OT in the late afternoon then she fights all sleep!!! Here is a rough example of our day.

wake/feed 7:20
nap 8:30-9:12 woke fussing fell back to sleep 9:40-10:20
feed 10:30
nap 11:39 (caught a yawn) sleep by 11:45-12:06 woke slept on and off till 1:35
feed 1:45
nap 2:45-3:36
feed 4:00
nap 4:50-5:20
feed 6:00
Top off 6:45 and in bed at 7:10

I'm seriously so confused at what the heck to do.  I have a feeling she needs more A time but she starts to get cranky after being awake longer than an hour in the morning.  HELP!!!!!

[lhanson7251]

Ughhhh I'm so frustrated!  Today I increased her first "A" time to 1.15 min she was asleep by 1.20 still got a 30 min nap!!!!  What on Earth?  She wakes completely at the 30 min mark no matter what I do.  Even in the stroller or if I try to slip her paci right as she stirs she always wakes.  Sometimes she'll fuss around for 30 min then put herself back to sleep for another 30 min. but not lately.  She just tosses and turns her head trying to resettle but only sleeps for 5 mins then does it again over and over.  That can't be restorative can it?   HELP!!!!

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))) Short naps can be frustrating and exhausting. I will see if someone can pop on and take a look at your routine.

[Kellyjs]

Hugs hun, I totally feel your pain, I had a chronic short napper too. It is so frustrating.

How does she wake after these 30mins naps? From the looks of your routine it looks like she's generally waking after a sleep cycle of 40mims? Is that right? I can see the first nap she went back to sleep after a little while so I'm thinking actually she may be just a little UT.

Do you know if anything was different that time she slept for 2hrs first thing? Was she awake slightly longer or shorter that particular morning? This morning when it was slightly longer Awas she wakimg happy? Sorry for all the questions! Xx

[lhanson7251]

Hugs hun, I totally feel your pain, I had a chronic short napper too. It is so frustrating.

How does she wake after these 30mins naps? From the looks of your routine it looks like she's generally waking after a sleep cycle of 40mims? Is that right? I can see the first nap she went back to sleep after a little while so I'm thinking actually she may be just a little UT.

Do you know if anything was different that time she slept for 2hrs first thing? Was she awake slightly longer or shorter that particular morning? This morning when it was slightly longer Awas she wakimg happy? Sorry for all the questions! Xx

The "A" time both days I got her to sleep 2 hrs was 1 hr 10 min but it only worked those two days (I was putting her down closer to 1 hr before).  She actually sleeps 30 mins it takes her about 5 min to fall off to sleep on her own typically.  I'm not in the room so I can't tell for sure.  She usually wakes happy for about 10 min then starts fussing from the first nap but all the others she's fussing/crying.  I've gotten a couple 45-1.15 naps the past couple weeks too are those UT?

This morning she woke and was just quiet and moving around.  She's a pretty happy girl even when she's OT but that makes it hard to read her cues. 

[lhanson7251]

Well today was actually worse.

Wake/feed 7:45
nap 9:08 cried when I laid her down which she never does!  asleep at 9:15 woke at 9:49 fussing/crying, ended up rocking her back to sleep at 10:30, woke up at 11:15.  

I'm assuming she was OT since she cried going down and when she woke.  Thoughts???  She was so happy during her wake time and never yawned or showed she was sleepy.  I just wish she had some cues!

[Kellyjs]

I know you're finding it really tough atm hun, hugs it really does get better. I know that it doesn't feel like it but it really will. Mine only ever showed sleepy cues when she needed a change of scenery 

Sometimes at this age short naps can be developmental and there's not too much we can do, but I think if we try a couple of things we can rule it out ok?

I'm thinking yes, let's rule out any OT. It could well be that she prefers a slightly shorter A first thing compared to the rest of the day. We'll just have to try and see.

How about we go back to the 1hr 10mins. A time for he next couple of days. Then I would actually try a bit of w2s at around 25mins after you think she's fallen asleep. To do this takes a bit of trial and error but I got really good results with it. I think because yours is an independent sleeper you might have to. That being said, if the A time isn't right it won't work, but at least we'll know.

So I would go into her room at the 25mins mark (might even need to move this up to 20mins, but let's try 25 first). I would stroke her cheek or put a hand on her shoulder until you hear her breathing pattern change or she rouses ever so slightly (you don't want to wake her fully), then I'd back out of the room quietly. Do this for the first nap of the day for the next 2 days and see if there's any difference in the nap length. Does all that make sense? Xx

How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

[lhanson7251]

Wel we had a breakthrough this morning.  I put her down at 1.10 min and got a 1.50 min nap!!!!  Then we crashed and burned for nap #2, I was planning on letting her have a slightly longer A time but she suddenly got very cranky at 1.05 so I went ahead and put her down, she went to sleep very quickly and woke fussing after 30 min.  

Back to the drawing board I suppose.  But I will celebrate the 1st nap for sure!!!

[Kellyjs]

Excellent news hun, well done you.

Ok let's stick with that first A time for a while and see what happens. It may be that we have to keep that one slightly shorter and lengthen the next one a little after such a great nap? Xx

[lhanson7251]

OK so I've kept the 1 hr 10 min first A time for several days and it has helped although the naps were closer to 2 hrs and the past couple days they've been more like 1 hr 15-20 min.  So I'm wondering if I should stretch her to 1.15-20?  We still can't seem to get any of her other naps to lengthen though.  She acts sleepy at 45-50 min after waking from that 1st nap which makes no sense to me.  I've tried putting her down at 1 hr, 1 hr 10 min and even stretching to 1 hr 15-20 min.  Always get the same result....30 min nap.  Wakes fussing, I can usually go in and rock her back to sleep after fighting it for about 10 min then she'll sleep for another 45 mins or so.  Then all our naps after that are also 30 min.   She can't stay awake past an hour bc she's so OT by then.  I spend all day nursing then putting her back to sleep.

Should I just shoot for the higher A time and help her finish the nap till she gets past this weird nap issue?  At least that way it would be a schedule and not all over the place.  She's 3 months today!    She's also been sucking on her hands a lot during waketime so I'm wondering if it's time to ditch the swaddle and let her find some self soothing techniques?  (My husband says I never stop thinking about her sleep issues, I must be exhausted) lol. 

One more question...We try not to get her out of her bed in the morning till 7 (30 min either direction).  So today she woke at 6:15 and I left her till 6:30.  Do I count that 15 min she's in bed as A time and put her down after an hour or go ahead and wait till 1 hr 10 min?

[Kellyjs]

Ha ha my DH still says that now!! Hence why I'm always on here as he's bored of listening to me lol 

That's amazing the nap lengthened. Brilliant. I'd hold onto that nap for dear life so yep, I'd try adding on maybe 5 mins the first day, see how it goes then maybe another 5 the next day and hold for another few days.

Right, so we do know she's capable of longer naps don't we, we just need to sort this out for you. I think you're right, she'll be getting OT by the end of the day hence the short A times.

Did you try the w2s hun? The A times must be about right before the second nap so I think w2s could really help.

We never used a swaddle as DD was born during a crazy heat wave here, but there's loads of old posts on the props board where people have asked how to wean the swaddle. You could well try leaving an arm out and seeing if that helps her find her thumb or fingers?

Now wrt the getting out of bed. Tracy believed time awake as A time. I'm not ever going to go against her but I used to count that as downtime and they're not really getting much stimulation are they? I used to go from when she got out of bed but she was around 6mo then. What are you doing atm? If you're counting it from when she's getting out of bed she might be having a slightly longer A time than we think and might help us work out the rest of the day for you?

What did you do that morning if I may ask and how long was the nap? Xx

[lhanson7251]

Ha ha my DH still says that now!! Hence why I'm always on here as he's bored of listening to me lol 

That's amazing the nap lengthened. Brilliant. I'd hold onto that nap for dear life so yep, I'd try adding on maybe 5 mins the first day, see how it goes then maybe another 5 the next day and hold for another few days.

Right, so we do know she's capable of longer naps don't we, we just need to sort this out for you. I think you're right, she'll be getting OT by the end of the day hence the short A times.

Did you try the w2s hun? The A times must be about right before the second nap so I think w2s could really help.

We never used a swaddle as DD was born during a crazy heat wave here, but there's loads of old posts on the props board where people have asked how to wean the swaddle. You could well try leaving an arm out and seeing if that helps her find her thumb or fingers?

Now wrt the getting out of bed. Tracy believed time awake as A time. I'm not ever going to go against her but I used to count that as downtime and they're not really getting much stimulation are they? I used to go from when she got out of bed but she was around 6mo then. What are you doing atm? If you're counting it from when she's getting out of bed she might be having a slightly longer A time than we think and might help us work out the rest of the day for you?

What did you do that morning if I may ask and how long was the nap? Xx

I have tried a couple times to do w2s and failed both times.  At 30 min her eyes pop wide open.  I've even tried to hold her legs during transition since they usually go flying in the air during transition.  She always wakes fully.  I also tried just brushing her cheek and then leaving but she still wakes.  

As far as A time goes if she wakes and I leave her...I usually split the difference so if she wakes after 30 min but puts herself back to sleep for 30 after fussing/playing for 30 I will take about 15 min off her next A time.  Or if she wakes 15 min early and is happy I leave her and put her down an hour later.

We usually have 10-15 min in the swing after eating while I drink my coffee. then some tummy time and cuddles and read a book before our WD time.

[Kellyjs]

How did it go today hun? I'm wondering if we should push the A by another 10 mins wdyt? Xx

[lhanson7251]

How did it go today hun? I'm wondering if we should push the A by another 10 mins wdyt? Xx

Yesterday her first nap was 1 hr, I put her in the crib after 1 hr 10 min thinking it would take her 5 min to fall asleep but her eyes shut almost instantly!  Woke content but started to fuss about 15 min later.  I tried for 1 hr 15 min for the second A time and she fussed when I laid her down for almost 15 min so her wake time was 1 hr 30 min and she woke at the 30 min mark crying.  I rocked her back to sleep for another hour. 3 rd nap was only 25 min  after 1 hr 10 min A time (yawned), majorly OT by now.  Then I put her down an hour later and she went straight to sleep, woke 30 min later.  We also had 2 NF's which she hasn't done in over a month!  So maybe we are in the midst of the 3 month growth spurt? 

Today's first nap was 30 min after 1 hr 15 min A time.  I held her and got her to sleep another 45 min.  Now she's napping again after 1 hr 15 min A time (she was doing the sleepy stare so I put her down, she was asleep w/in 5 min).

We just can't seem to get a nap longer than 30 min for anything but the 1st nap.  I'm beginning to think this is just who is is right now and she will grow out of it once she's more active???

[lhanson7251]

Ok so this morning I pushed her first A time to 1 hr 20 min.  She did wake at 30 min mark but quietly put herself back to sleep within 10 mins!!!  This is huge!

Wake/feed 7:30
Nap 8:50 (put in crib at 8:43, sleep by 8:50)-10:25
Feed 10:30
Nap 11:50 (put in crib at 11:47, sleep by 11:50) *NO CRYING AT ALL!!!!

Fingers crossed she can get through the 30 min transition at this nap, this is our trouble spot.  I'm hoping the problem was that she was UT and the extra wake time will help her get back to sleep.